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1870 Shield Nickel Cherrypick - Name That Variety (FS-801 (FS-005.9))

StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 18, 2018 4:57PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I did find one little surprise yesterday at the show.

Would you have spotted it yourself?

Wish it was in better condition, but with only 9 graded at PCGS, I'll take it. For the shield nickel experts - is the low population simply because the lower grades are sub-$100 coins?


------------------------------------------------------------

"You Suck Award" - February, 2015

Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101

Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018 11:53AM

    I see the doubled die and the hub is correct for the date. I give up.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whatever the variety is, the pop may be low because it is too subtle.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are 7 graded at NGC too.

    http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/38372

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice pick up.....Cheers, RickO

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i see it now, that is a very nice pick up. congrats

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like FS-801 to me. Cool DDR!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @giorgio11 said:
    Looks like FS-801 to me. Cool DDR!

    Kind regards,

    George

    I don't think it is in FS, look again. Tell me what you think.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018 12:55PM

    @Insider2 that's where I was looking but I am far from expert in the series. I do see some similarities in the E of CENTS, the split star point under I of UNITED.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018 2:47PM

    Thanks for sharing.

    I see repunched stars, but not sure I would call that a DDR.

    Howard calls it an "overhub" variety, because the "doubling" is caused by impressions from 2 different hubs.
    That makes it much cooler than a DDR (2 impressions from a single hub).
    http://www.shieldnickels.net/top20/70F14.html

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Correct, similar to the 42/41 Merc, 18/17 Buff, 60 and 70 Lincoln’s, etc.

    Maybe @howards can tell me which obverse this one is.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    Thanks for sharing.

    I see repunched stars, but not sure I would call that a DDR.

    Howard calls it an "overhub" variety, because the "doubling" is caused by impressions from 2 different hubs.
    That makes it much cooler than a DDR (2 impressions from a single hub).
    http://www.shieldnickels.net/top20/70F14.html

    Interesting! I was sitting here trying to figure out what class of doubled die it was. Different hubs makes sense.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ll take some macro photos after the kids go to bed, but in addition to many stars, several letters in both cents and United show it well, as well as a part of the 5.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2018 5:04PM

    Here you go up close and personal:











    Stars starting with the 2 under the 5 and working in groups of 2 clockwise (last single one is about the 5:00 clock position)

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool.
    Shield Nickels are like a giant goodie bag.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, the guy who wrote the book is the expert. I have disagreed in the past with some of his opinions.

    AFAIK, all doubled dies resulted when a die was "hubbed" a little off registry. If this turns out to be two completely different hubs which I cannot confirm UNLESS it is one that is unlisted, it will be a very special coin.

    IMHO, this is nothing like a 42/1 or 18/17. The 1960 Lincolns are a better case.

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 1:53PM

    Yea, I was just giving examples of Type III Doubling. This one is supposed to be an 1870 over 1867 reverse.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 2:50PM

    Looking in Fletcher, I don't have Howard's book, the image above does not compute as an 1870/1869 dual hub reverse. While the position of the stars is correct for the 1870 (Reverse Hub IIc) the stars on the 1867 hub w/no rays (IIa) are much closer to the letters than on your coin. If this actually were a dual hub, the stars would be extremely separated which they are not!

    Note the distance between the star and "T" of Cents on both hubs.

    Perhaps Mr. Howard or someone with his book can inform me of my error. Perhaps new material on this series is in his book.

    Otherwise, it is a DDR. :wink:

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was going off of @howards website that said 70 over 67 here:
    http://www.shieldnickels.net/top20/70F14.html

    NGC's Variety Page states:

    1870 DDR FS-801 5C MS
    NGC Attribution: FS-801
    Cross Reference

    Fivaz-Stanton (OLD): FS-005.9

    Fletcher: F-14

    Spindel: S1-2002

    VarietyPlus: VP-004
    Diagnostics

    Doubling is visible on UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, FIVE CENTS, the stars and 5.
    Comments

    This DDR was the result of successive hubbings from mismatched hubs. The die was first sunk with Reverse IIa (REV OF 67) and then with Reverse IIc (REV OF 69).
    NGC Census

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 3:24PM

    That does not answer what I posted. Also note that the image in the link does not match your coin!

    Just asking <3 what am I missing?

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know what you're missing.

    The coin I posted pics of matches every diagnostic/picture on the PCGS site, NGC Site, and Howards site with the exceptions of die cracks which mine don't have. The doubling matches everything. You're not looking at the 2nd set of pictures on howard's site (The FS-802) are you?

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 4:29PM

    Thanks for your help! The up close and personal image DOES MATCH your coin. That's because IT IS YOUR COIN.

    IMO, your coin is NOT a dual hub. IMO, It is not FS-801 either. Please note in the FS book that the star over the "E" of "Cent" on FS-801 and the Howard link in this thread IS NOT doubled as on your coin!

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So what character is under the S in cents? Thanks. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 4:42PM

    @Insider2 said:
    ... the star over the "E" of "Cent" on FS-801 and the Howard link in this thread IS NOT doubled as on your coin!


    (Howard Spindel photo)
    It looks doubled to me, on the top point near the big 5.

    The star over E on @StrikeOutXXX's coin has an additional groove on the lower left point, which is probably (minor) PMD.

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 4:56PM

    OK, stop and rewind. Yes, I posted the OP coin obv/rev AND the up close and personal pictures - they are all the coin I bought Sunday.

    If you compare MY pictures to:

    Either of the TruViews here:

    NGCs few pictures:

    The pictures on Howard's site:

    The only print photos I have is in Whitman's A Guide Book of Shield and Liberty Head Nickels (2006) with a picture on page 106 and of course the CPG itself.

    THEY ALL MATCH

    Focus on the T & D in United, for me at least, it's easiest to see.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Namvet69 said:
    So what character is under the S in cents? Thanks. Peace Roy

    It would be another S from a different hub, just in a slightly different position. Here was my closeup including the S

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you. A lot of error action happening in that coin. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said: "The star over E on @StrikeOutXXX's coin has an additional groove on the lower left point, which is probably (minor) PMD."

    THAT's probably the answer. :)

    I'm leaning hard toward all of you but not 100%. I'm going to stop arguing and guess we are looking at different die states.

    At least we can agree it is NOT two different hubs and only a major DDR.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2018 5:52PM

    @Insider2 said:

    Looking in Fletcher, I don't have Howard's book, the image above does not compute as an 1870/1869 dual hub reverse. While the position of the stars is correct for the 1870 (Reverse Hub IIc) the stars on the 1867 hub w/no rays (IIa) are much closer to the letters than on your coin. If this actually were a dual hub, the stars would be extremely separated which they are not!

    Note the distance between the star and "T" of Cents on both hubs.



    The above photos show the IIa hub star over T is lower, but it's lower on the overhub coin, too.
    Are you saying it should be a lot lower than it is on the overhub?
    The T might not be in the same position in both hub pressings.
    The S appears to be much higher on the underhub, right?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said: "The above photos show the IIa hub star over T is lower, but it's lower on the overhub coin, too.

    So far, I have not seen anything that looks like a die made using two different hubs.

  • howardshowards Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭

    The coin has been correctly identified above as FS-005.9 (FS-801). The obverse is the first obverse (Fletcher F-14a). One distinguises the different obverses by die cracks.

    The DDR was created when the die was hubbed first with a IIa hub and subsequently with a IIc hub. FS-802 is a similar occurrence, but is a IIc hub first followed by a IIa.

  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Where the heck is Howards when you need him.........................

    "The DDR was created when the die was hubbed first with a IIa hub and subsequently with a IIc hub. FS-802 is a similar occurrence, but is a IIc hub first followed by a IIa."

    Howard is the best when it comes to Shield Nickels, please check out his website .
    http://shieldnickels.net/

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see all the doubling but on the 1870 5C DDR FS-801 (FS-005.9) (Regular Strike) there is doubling on the date as well.


    I don't see it in yours.



    Hoard the keys.
  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Geez Howard, it took you long enough!

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Type2

    Here is a close-up of my date. Probably too much crust compared to the pics you linked.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yours looks like it going South the other is going West.

    South

    West



    Hoard the keys.
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Remember, this is a DDR - there were different obverses.

    Howards said mine was: The obverse is the first obverse (Fletcher F-14a). One distinguises the different obverses by die cracks.

    Mine doesn't have the die cracks like the 2nd obverse you're showing pics of, so they likely won't match.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • howardshowards Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭

    On the examples where I can see doubling of the date, it looks like strike doubling. Would need better photos to be sure.

  • howardshowards Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Whatever the variety is, the pop may be low because it is too subtle.

    Or because until the introduction of the "Complete Shield Nickel Variety Set" to the PCGS registry, few people bothered to get their coins attributed.

  • howardshowards Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭

    @StrikeOutXXX said:
    Howards said mine was: The obverse is the first obverse (Fletcher F-14a). One distinguises the different obverses by die cracks.

    Mine doesn't have the die cracks like the 2nd obverse you're showing pics of, so they likely won't match.

    Yours does have the long die crack adjacent to the bottom edge of the shield left, which is diagnostic for F-14a.

  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The one type2 linked 6 or so posts up comparing the date doubling, that larger die crack is a different obverse though correct?

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101

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