Some Cross-over results.
keets
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I had mailed a submission of eight coins/medals to PCGS using the "Cross-Over" service and the results and TrueView images have been posted. I thought I would share those along with my thoughts on a few things.
As seems to be our way as a group we tend to view what is happening in the grading room at PCGS through the lens of what our submission results tend to be. If they are favorable we agree with PCGS, if they are unfavorable we tend to think PCGS is being very "tight" at the moment. Also, if we see recently graded coins that we think are over-graded we tend to think PCGS is "loose" at the time. I don't really agree with that assessment: for our coins there is bias and for other coins we are either looking at pictures or making a generalization based on a very small sample.
I recall being at the F.U.N. Show around 2002-3 and attending the PCGS sponsored luncheon, always good food!! After it was over HRH made an announcement that I don't recall and fielded some questions, one which was directed towards crack-outs and cross-overs. While I don't recall his answer in its entirety the take-away was clear --- we would be better served to use the cross-over service instead of cracking coins from their holder and submitting them raw. Though I have done the later 2-3 times since then, for the most part I have adhered to his advice and been satisfied with the results.
Certainly my samples are small but my belief is that if I can screen my submission with a critical eye absent owner bias I tend to do OK. This submission was a good example, five that crossed at the same grade, two DNC and one upgrade. Though they were graded during the past 18+years it seems things really haven't changed much.
Line Items Cert # PCGS # Description Grade Country
1 1 35415822 642055 1876 SC$1 HK-21 Bronze US Centennial Expo-Official Medal, BN DNC USA
2 1 35415823 642531 1892 SC$1 HK-220 Bronze Columbian Expo, Liberty Head, BN MS65BN USA
3 1 35415824 643211 1917 SC$1 HK-667 Bronze Catskill Aqueduct Completion, BN MS62BN USA
4 1 35415825 643609 No Date SC$1 HK-860 White Metal Continental Currency-Confederation MS63 USA
5 1 35415826 643642 No Date SC$1 HK-866a Bronze Confederation Dollar, BN MS64BN USA
6 1 35415827 643682 1917 SC$1 HK-877a Brass T. Elder-WWI Issue MS64 USA
7 1 35415828 3927 1915 5C DNC USA
8 1 35415829 7696 1838 $2.50 MS60 USA
All the medals were in NGC capsules from different time periods. The HK-21 DNC most likely because they saw it as an MS63 though it is dark brown and difficult to evaluate. Of all the cross-overs I have tried it is the dark brown medals which seem the most likely to not cross. I am content with this in the NGC MS64 holder, I'll just try to look at it more closely to see what they saw to hold it back.
This HK-220 is a beautiful example of the design which is more commonly seen in aluminum. The bronze medals(I suspect they are bronzed copper) are more scarce and don't seem to have stood the passage of time as well. I know this; there have been several intact rolls of the aluminum medals found in the last 10-15 years so that may account for the increased number. I purchased it around 2005-6 already in the previous NGC holder, so the grading is consistent. It is listed as an R-5, 76-200 known.
The HK-667 Catskill Aqueduct is a beautifully designed medal with a very high relief. They were struck in bronze and most that I see are darker and tend to tone oddly as this one has. The strike always seems good so the preservation/color seems to be what holds back the grade. Medals like this don't tend to have luster and I think the services mis-grade because of that. I purchased this already in the NGC capsule from a Stack's auction maybe 4-5 years ago. It is also listed as an R-5.
The next three all share a common obverse design which is one of my favorites, taken from a $40 continental currency note and first used by Prof. Montroeville Dickeson, perhaps as early as 1860-63. He issued medals for the 1876 Centennial in Philadelphia and then the dies came into the possession of Thomas Elder. This medal pairs the "Confederation" obverse with a Dickeson reverse copy of the continental currency. The reverse die(s) later came into the possession of Bashlow/Bowers and I think the dies ended up in the Smithsonian. HK-860 is a hard one to find, listed as an R-7 with 10-20 known. I have seen one other example and purchased this one around 2005.
This HK-866a is on a thick copper planchet and Tom DeLorey writes that those were probably struck by Dickeson and not Elder. It is the only copper example I have seen and also lists as an R-7. This was owned by a forum member and we had talked of a sale for several years back to maybe 2010. I think it was raw until he listed it recently in a Heritage auction where I feel fortunate to have won it. In hand it is spectacular!!
Another R-7, I won this HK-877a about two years ago from Stack's but hesitated to send it last year with another group due to what looks like a stain/tone streak on the obverse. I guess I needed to study it longer and convince myself the grade was correct. In hindsight, it probably would be an MS65 if not for the stain/tone, if it had overall even color. I have come to a conclusion that Brass may be the most difficult metal type to be preserved long-term, it tends to oxidize to an unsightly dark color. I think that is most often caused from the surface(s) resting against something during storage. To that end, TPG encapsulation is crucial to long term protection.
Another DNC was a 1915 Buffalo Nickel in an MS64 SEGS holder. I feel good about the tone which is really quite nice so I assume PCGS thought the grade was wrong. I'm not sure about the SEGS holder generation but this is one I'll examine critically and maybe send back with "Any" noted on the grade line.
This last coin is a sweet little piece of American History that almost looks too pretty to have been pocket change, but I'll bet it had a lot of buying power when struck. The surfaces out to the rim in some places have a Proof-like appearance, very brilliant, and overall it's quite nice to look at. I'm not real good on Gold, especially early Gold, so I had expected this to grade AU55 and submitted it as such. Imagine how happy I was when it graded higher?!!? It was in an NGC AU58 holder from around 2000.
Enjoy and please comment.
Al H.
Comments
Beautiful examples. Thanks for sharing along with the extra info.
Nice write up on your experiences and current result - thanks for sharing with us.
PS - that $2.50 gold is a neat little coin!
Very nice medals and coins!
That 1838 IS AWESOME!!
Historical medals are always interesting. Thanks for the share. Peace Roy
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Nice ino thanks for sharing. Love that $2.5 gold!
here's the HK-21that was a DNC, I'm still looking for pictures oft he Nickel.
Great write up Al... Thoughtful analysis. Although I do not recommend this, it would be interesting to see the results if you cracked them all out now and resubmitted raw.....It would be an expensive experiment, but surely interesting..... Thanks for the article with all the TruViews... Cheers, RickO
Rick, I did that a number of years ago with a small group of about 10 Proof Jefferson Nickels. it was close to the time when CoinWorld ran an article about some coins that were sent to the various TPG's to get a feel for where everyone graded. in a strange twist, I believe it was ACG who was the winner!! OUCH.......................
for my experiment I took some coins, raw and cracked out, sent them around to a group of members who were willing to help and then sent them to PCGS for a comparison. if I can find the thread I will link it. it tended to show that PCGS was relatively consistent and also in line with the average grade that the individual members had assigned.
Great report...I haven't seen an MS60 on a newly graded gold coin in a while...I'm guessing the proof like surfaces have a lot of hairlines?...nice coins!!
Very Nice!
The first "Morgan " is truly outstanding and even though I don't collect medals that one would certainly be an impulse buy.
The 2 1/2 is quite nice for a slightly better date, probably a sleeper date.
keets - I like them all ESPECIALLY the dark ones. That first one looks way better than 63 to me.
Great post and educational as well. Thanks!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Really great stuff. I would guess that many who do the crack outs tend to be boarder line MS stuff, with that said it is nice to see you had the gold actual grade up to MS.
You really collect great pieces.
Kathy
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Great post!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
Very interesting and educational post. I find that $2 1/2 gold is really very attractive and I think the nicest looking MS60 coin that I've laid eyes on.
Regarding buying power of the quarter eagle, a pound of butter cost about 25c in 1838, compared to about $5 today. So, ~20x inflation or about $50 in today's money.
love the Liberty design & the Eye obverse. thanks for sharing
PLEASE SHARE THE BUFF!
Like the crusty quarter eagle. Nice old coin.
The catskill aqueduct is GORGEOUS
Love your stuff Keets
Best place to buy !
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