Electrotypes For Your Enjoyment
Rittenhouse
Posts: 592 ✭✭✭✭
Here's some electro's from my collection. I find these pieces and their history fascinating. From 1840 until the gov't cracked down in early 1885, these were one of the most popular numismatic collectibles, with auctions frequently containing far more electro's than their genuine counterparts.
I'll be publishing an article in Pennywise, probably the January issue as I have some pending FOIA requests to clear up the who and why of the crackdown.
In the meantime, here are some of my favorites from my collection. Please do post some of yours.
First up, my number one fav:
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And a few "toughies:"
And some interesting unjoined, filled shells. The fill is a lead alloy (I need to get this tested). The fill was machine lathed to a slight concavity - can you guess why?
Those are really interesting. I do not have any electrotypes....I assume the concavity was to conceal something. Cheers, RickO
One to add to the thread.
what are electrotypes?
what is so interesting about them?
OT maybe, but I always wondered how this was made.
The "coins" are the correct color. The material is fairly thin and whole thing was weighted with lead.
???
Ooo, lovely.
Certainly appears to be an electro made by molding a stack of coins and then electrotyping in a plating bath, Whomever did it was taking a big risk as the coinage law of 1891 was ammended to include possession of even a mold of a US or foreign coin. Penalty was 5 to 10 years hard labor and a 5K to 10K fine.
I'd like to see a better photo, if possible. Please PM.
Electrotypes are very accurate copies made by creating a mold of each side of a genuine coin, plating copper (or silver) on to the mold in an electroplating bath, removing the "shells" from the mold, filling with a lead alloy, trimming the fill and edge of the shell to permit joining the two halfs, and then soldering them together by stacking the halfs with a disc of solder between that melted at a lower temp than the fill on a hot plate.
Honest electrotypers left the seam. Dishonest ones hid the seam by coating the faces with varnish or wax and placing the piece back into the plating cell. Do it right and no one can tell. The TPGs have slabbed electro's.
Rob Rodriguez showed me an electro of a silver Immune in a slab and the only way you could tell is the piece has markers that exactly match another known coin. It also has one small, easy to miss spot of "bridging" in the drapery.
Could the electros vary the colors? That Indian Cent is full copper color and the others are the right colors for the respective coins.
Those are very cool.
@ambro51 has been making some modern ones:
Thanks for sharing @Rittenhouse as I too am a collector of electro’s as a few others here.
I would love a link to your article when published.
@Lakesammman that is one awesome piece!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Here are a couple more:
The shells are copper so the color will vary depending on how they were stored over the years just like normal copper coins vary in collor.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Here are a few of mine:
The white metal Libertas Americana electrotype came directly from the descendants of the person that made it in the early 1800's, with an unbroken chain from generation to generation.
They artificially toned most electro's to match the appearance of what was available back then. There were several period instructional booklets and articles published on making electrotypes and toning the finished product. You could even buy electrotyping sets, complete with molds - everything needed for "counterfeiting at home for fun and profit." It was unreal.
Gorgeous stuff, if you ever tire of them....
Love the CT.
One more ---
And this one has a pedigree, having been among the collections of a number of EAC experts!
I'm pretty sure that just about everyone here has seen mine, but for the one person that might not have I'll post it again.
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My newest one I picked up a few month's ago.
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I saw this from someone who posted this long ago but can't remember who the person was.....I always that ought this was pretty cool.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Does the ANA have a class on making electrotypes? If not, should they? Looks like it could be quite fun, like making your own medals.
Do you have a blow-up of the John Eager Howard? I have one that is so light it must be filled with cardboard or paper mache (actually one of the suggestions in a period article).
For those who collect, here's a link to the 1880's FPL of Charles Enders, Jr, one of the most prolific dealers in electrotypes. It's fun to match pieces to his list. Maybe some originated with him.
https://archive.org/stream/pricelistcatalog0000ende#page/n0/mode/2up
And thanks to everyone who shared.
Are any of the creators of the vintage electrotypes known?
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I usually weigh each one when I take images but I guess I forgot to do it on this one. but its not that lightweight as I remember. Must be lead filled. Also looks to be silvered.
You might be able to right click and see a larger image
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I bought them a few years ago, labeled as 'British tokens' for $1 apiece.
Yes. Peale did some as did Crosby , Levick, Enders, and MIckley (although he may have had Cogan or someone else make them for him). SH Black is well known. And I suspect Hazeltine and Idler. There’s a letter from the Secret Service to the Chapmans strongly suggesting their involvement. I have a FOIA request in to hopefully confirm.
Those are all 1860 to 1880. Who was doing it earlier and who else was doing it is unknown. Anyone with a middling ability could have done this, and I strongly suspect they did.
I think it would be neat if ANA had some classes on this. It could add some more fun to the Summer Seminar, like minting your own tokens.
Very cool.
Just stick with medals, tokens, or pre-federal. The current penalty for simply possessing a mold of a US or foreign coin is up to 15 years and a fine. Leavenworth is not the vacation capital of the US. Trust me, I work for the Army, been there a few times, no urgent desire to return. OTOH, Aruba is really nice, I’d go for that.
Medals, tokens, or pre-federal may be fine, but it may be ok with coins too, as long as you are careful and follow the law. Companies like Moonlight Mint, Patrick Mint and National Collectors Mint, along with individuals like @ambro51 seem to have no issues. The HPA allows for replica coins so you need the molds or dies to perform the strikes in accordance to the law. The existing producers strike them with COPY on one side (NCM tributes), paired with a non-coin die (Patrick Mint tokens), overstrike an existing coin (Moonlight Mint overstrikes), or create a uniface item as with the electrotype.
An interesting thing is that the latest amendments to the HPA seem like they may require classic counterfeits, replicas and possibly electrotypes to be marked COPY if they are sold. The 1973 HPA just covered manufacture so anything manufactured before 1973 was ok, but I'm not sure if selling a pre-1973 copy now needs COPY since current selling is covered, independent of manufacture.
I’ve already warned abro51, The rest get away with it because they’re not perfect replicas of US coins and they mark them. The issue is for a coin, mold, or die indistinguishable from a US coin. You may wish to dance around the definition, feel free to do so, but you’re facing hard time. Wanna make that bet?
So were these made the same way?
If you weren't such an educator, I wouldn't mind putting this one in my safety deposit box for a decade or two!
I'm not sure what you mean by the "rest get away with it". Those are companies that respect and follow the law, not get away with something. No one is talking about breaking the law.
So far ambro51 has only done one side and the aforementioned Patrick Mint does single sides with their pieces. It's easy for ambro to do one better than the Patrick Mint by adding one or two initials like the Smithsonian does now with their "SI mintmark" which they only use on one side.
Regarding perfect replicas and marking, some of companies mentioned do have molds and dies that are indistinguishable from a US coin to the lay person for production of lawful replicas. Just look at the Morgan dollar obverses that the National Collector's Mint puts out. The law says you need to mark one side with the text COPY which they do, however, that means they have one side that represents an unmarked US coin. The Gallery Mint Museum would even let customers choose which side of their coin to apply the COPY mark, meaning they had two dies without the COPY stamp. I'm not dancing around the definition. I'm simply stating what companies have been doing for years to respect and follow the law. How about this for a bet, if any of those companies I mentioned are convicted, you win. If not, I win?
Was the Hazeltine kerfluffle of 1885 one of the things that brought about the crackdown on electrotypes?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Yup. Pretty neat pieces. There's one in the Heritage Long Beach auction. I was thinking of buying it, but it's not on Enders' FPL, so I decided not. Still, very cool.
From period newspapers, the crackdown apparently started with a collector of some influence who got miffed over a fake 1804 dollar or half dollar. The reports are a little garbled, so at this point I'm not sure which. I have a FOIA request in to see if the real who and why can be found.
Anyway, electro's got caught in the crossfire of the SS investigation into the 1804 fakes with the gov't finally deciding that these too weren't such a great idea. Low, Levick, and Woodward all had pieces seized.
Interesting that the current HA offering of the J159a doesn't specify "electrotype" on the label unlike other specimens from PCGS/NGC (other than the "a" designation).
The Libertas is quite nice. Very unusual to see an electrotype that large without some bowing.
I once handled one of the mint-made 1804 dollar (Class 2) electrotypes. The detail was superb! Anybody have a picture of one to post?
That's because the pattern guys define J-159a as the electro. I think that the only pattern electro with its own Judd number.
Was the Hazeltine kerfluffle of 1885 one of the things that brought about the crackdown on electrotypes?> @Rittenhouse said:
I believe that there was an 1804 Dollar Electro in an 1885 Hazeltine sale that was seized, although it's been a while since I read about it.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Here's a link to a CoinWeek video about Robert Campbell's 1804 mint-made electrotype. He had it on display at a show some years ago and I examined it in hand. I asked if it was for sale, and his response was, "Yes, if I was prepared to pay 7 figures for it!"
https://youtube.com/watch?v=cwYilukT54Q
I'll have to check if there are any other Judd's. There may be one other, but I can't recall off the top of my head.
I always thought this was a neat electrotype, not sure why they would do it,
other than to try for a pattern coin?
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
They might have done it as a process test, but I think a lot of these low value pieces were created as numismatic counterfeits. They were cheap to make, around 5 to 10 cents, so even a one dollar coin was profitable.
Perhaps they'll meet you half way (or more precisely, 3/4 of the way) and send you to GTMO.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I do not recall seeing a genuine Isabella Quarter with that die crack through COLUMBIAN QUAR.
They probably explain the process in the counterfeit detection class, but I think it would be irresponsible to teach it, as it would then be seen as a skill that they endorse their members having and paying them money to learn. Likewise for AT'ing coins.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Could have happened in the process. My 1799 cent electro has a reverse crack not seen on any variety. The piece is actually an electro of an altered date 1798 S169 - a fake of a fake.