Looking at the magnified picture, I am curious about the 'residue' in the date numbers. Looks like some sort of polishing material...... Any comments/ideas?? Cheers, RickO
I can't imagine how many rolls of the tough to find 1942 you'd have to check to find one this nice. This roll wholesales over $250 so you'll also need to find buyers of all those misses.
I believe the odd look is related to its being an extremely early die strike.
Interesting thread, and good discussions! Always learning something new, this time about 42-P JeffNicks!
The auction description may have a bit of puffery, but what auction descriptions don't? Also, I doubt this coin would ever be in Legend's inventory.
Seems to me this may be a coin that was manufactured so poorly that the bar for a 67FS is lower than for other dates (yes, technically that should not be the case, but most of us know otherwise). Looking at the 8 67FS photos in the condition census, it looks to me that only one of those is better than the coin being discussed here.
I can't do anything-it is not my coin. The coin is not here-it is one its way to LB> I will re examine it there. if I feel I missed something and deem it bad, i will pull it.
I'm not sure I understand the complaint, where does it say here it went up a grade? I just see talk about flips.
@ricko said:
Looking at the magnified picture, I am curious about the 'residue' in the date numbers. Looks like some sort of polishing material...... Any comments/ideas?? Cheers, RickO
I agree as that's what I also see...
Although I can also comprehend how some others think it's a photoshop or paint program enhancement.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Here is the problem, upgrades happen every day now. Some times the upgrades are warranted. If we stopped to look at every coin to see if it had been upgraded, chances are we'd never post anything!
Apparently others thought the coin was better then an MS66 as well based upon the prices it traded for.
No excuse, I did not catalog the coin, so i never saw it. BUT if its less then a MS67 won't it sell for market-no matter how its written up? That is a free market. A lot of people WILL see this coin as we show it in person. And who am I to say it isn't a MS67? PCGS seemed to have liked it? I am not so sure I am an expert on technically grading jeff nickels any way.
And please, we NEVER photo shop a coin!
I do promise to review the coin when I get to LB and can see it again. I do reject and or pull coins when really warranted.
@DIMEMAN said:
Someone will buy it for the points....not for coin.
Yup. That is the game with the plastic. And anyone who has a registry set really shouldn't hate the game.
It's the Peter Principle applied to coins: all coins rise to one grade above reasonable for condition.
Amen!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Coins also go down in grade after cracked, in fact, that happens more than the reverse. Take any top-pop coin you have, crack it, and send it in right now. I think you will be enlightened in a bad way.
@AllCoinsRule said:
I bought this coin a few years ago in an old ms66fs holder on eBay in a no returns auction for about $700. I immediately hated it. There is a naked eye visible hit on the left side of the steps, interrupting them, not a coin I would ever call full steps, and there's also a giant scratch across the bust on the obverse and not terribly great luster. I would never even dream of resubmitting this coin! I soon after got a truly full step one (but also not so great otherwise) and had this one back on eBay for over a year at about $700 with no sale. I finally sent it to GC to get it sold, and lost about $250. Now it's an ms67fs and up for auction with Legend.
Wow, it's now a top pop 9/0 coin with a PCGS Price Guide value of $2,850.
Big jump from $450, if that's what you got from GC.
As people have said, it's part of the game. Bruce won't play the game anymore so it hits everyone.
@specialist said:
I can't do anything-it is not my coin. The coin is not here-it is one its way to LB> I will re examine it there. if I feel I missed something and deem it bad, i will pull it.
@specialist said:
who am I to say it isn't a MS67? PCGS seemed to have liked it?
Legend's Hot Topics mentions helping collectors avoid over graded coins in their sets quite often. Over graded coin avoidance seems to be a service of the top dealers.
I am not so sure I am an expert on technically grading jeff nickels any way.
Having played the 42T1 game a few times, my original thought was, "We can argue FS till the cows come home, but I like the reverse! And I hate the obverse!" Then I went and looked at the GC link AllCoinsRule provided.
Perhaps the real message here is a reminder of the danger of making coin purchase decisions or grade proclamations based on pictures. Youch! Hard to believe it's the same coin.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
@ricko said:
Looking at the magnified picture, I am curious about the 'residue' in the date numbers. Looks like some sort of polishing material...... Any comments/ideas?? Cheers, RickO
I agree as that's what I also see...
Although I can also comprehend how some others think it's a photoshop or paint program enhancement.
My eye was drawn to the gunk in the date too. At first I thought it was old PVC which sometimes looks white. But I'm not sure about this one.
Lance.
@specialist said:
Here is the problem, upgrades happen every day now. Some times the upgrades are warranted. If we stopped to look at every coin to see if it had been upgraded, chances are we'd never post anything!
Apparently others thought the coin was better then an MS66 as well based upon the prices it traded for.
No excuse, I did not catalog the coin, so i never saw it. BUT if its less then a MS67 won't it sell for market-no matter how its written up? That is a free market. A lot of people WILL see this coin as we show it in person. And who am I to say it isn't a MS67? PCGS seemed to have liked it? I am not so sure I am an expert on technically grading jeff nickels any way.
And please, we NEVER photo shop a coin!
I do promise to review the coin when I get to LB and can see it again. I do reject and or pull coins when really warranted.
@jdimmick said:
Here is one for ya, in this same auction, there is an early copper coin that I purchased from a local family that has some issues including a big scratch on the reverse. It was originally holdered at ngc (details graded). I tried it at pcgs was able to get it straight graded, as xf-40. sold it to a national dealer. it is now holdered in a much higher holder, cac'd and now condition census. and will probably bring 5-6x what it sold for prior?
Some may think I'm an apologist for all the TPGS's and I'm going to ignore any of those ignorant folks who say I am after reading this post. I just like to debate. Often that involves taking the other side.
Personally, that is a beautiful coin! I also have no idea what it is worth and I don't care.
We all know grading standards have changed. According to the ANA Grading standards, the coin is a no question MS-66. I can think of three things that may be involved for that coin to squeak into the MS-67 grade.
Knowledge of the market (sounds like at least two dealers liked it and thought it had a shot to grade higher).
Eye Appeal.
The "Deep State mentioned in another discussion. I posted the password for all of you.
As for the steps (bell lines, bands), I'm old school. I don't want anything crossing the lines. HOWEVER, some folks believe that the "cut" must be deep enough to reach the bottom of the furrow. It does not appear that this mark does so...wiggle room! BTW, I will not mention the company but if you research FBL's on the internet, one reputable source had/still has ? a FBL Franklin with a deep gash across the BL at one end of the bell. Go figure.
If you only lost $250.00 that’s NOT BAD. At least it was not $2,500.00 or $25,000.00 . I losses that much at least once every two weeks. Any money I make a gain on I blow it on STUFF!!!!
@Gluggo said:
If you only lost $250.00 that’s NOT BAD. At least it was not $2,500.00 or $25,000.00 . I losses that much at least once every two weeks. Any money I make a gain on I blow it on STUFF!!!!
What are you selling at that much of a loss? More importantly, what grade (raw?) coins are you buying?
@Gluggo said:
If you only lost $250.00 that’s NOT BAD. At least it was not $2,500.00 or $25,000.00 . I losses that much at least once every two weeks. Any money I make a gain on I blow it on STUFF!!!!
What are you selling at that much of a loss? More importantly, what grade (raw?) coins are you buying?
Ask the IRS that’s all I am saying. I was referring to money in general on the high figures.
@ricko said:
Looking at the magnified picture, I am curious about the 'residue' in the date numbers. Looks like some sort of polishing material...... Any comments/ideas?? Cheers, RickO
I agree as that's what I also see...
Although I can also comprehend how some others think it's a photoshop or paint program enhancement.
My eye was drawn to the gunk in the date too. At first I thought it was old PVC which sometimes looks white. But I'm not sure about this one.
Lance.
Looking at the GC photo looks like that gunk may have been there. Harder to spot. I’ll take back my thoughts about photoshop. The grey color just looked like an attempt to “pencil” in the areas.
@JeffersonFrog said:
Having played the 42T1 game a few times, my original thought was, "We can argue FS till the cows come home, but I like the reverse! And I hate the obverse!" Then I went and looked at the GC link AllCoinsRule provided.
Perhaps the real message here is a reminder of the danger of making coin purchase decisions or grade proclamations based on pictures. Youch! Hard to believe it's the same coin.
What are these labels and how do they tie into this thing? I assume you are saying in code (42T1) that you tried for a top pop a few times? Also, no FS makes your coins worth $200 rather than 2 grand, as in the OP's coin.
@ricko said:
Looking at the magnified picture, I am curious about the 'residue' in the date numbers. Looks like some sort of polishing material...... Any comments/ideas?? Cheers, RickO
I agree as that's what I also see...
Although I can also comprehend how some others think it's a photoshop or paint program enhancement.
My eye was drawn to the gunk in the date too. At first I thought it was old PVC which sometimes looks white. But I'm not sure about this one.
Lance.
Looking at the GC photo looks like that gunk may have been there. Harder to spot. I’ll take back my thoughts about photoshop. The grey color just looked like an attempt to “pencil” in the areas.
When I see white residue trapped around/in the relief of a coin I immediately think baking soda residue. If that were the case here I don't think that is something anyone would miss.
I thought that Laura's response was excellent! I also really believe that the artifacts/ gunk in the date needs to be looked at closely. The idea of the coin being photoshopped are not credible to me, as 1) it is such a poor job to be so evident and 2) the idea that Legend would EVER even consider such and act for ANY coin, much less lower-value modern crap, are laughable.
Conventional wisdom used to be that a hit on the steps didn't invalidate the designation if it was shallow enough - and that comes down to an entirely subjective decision by the grading team.
If you can't figure out which coins are potential upgrades, stop trying and crying.
Also, what does this have to do with the auction company? They didn't put the grade on the coin. Legend should not have even responded to such foolishness. If that coin gets pulled from the auction, every consignor on Earth should stop using them.
Are you going to police every auction out there now, looking for upgrades, and demanding they are all pulled?
Let go completely of any coin you sold ..... there should be no need to follow their lives anymore no matter what
They are not in your control anymore so save the heartache
It's almost as finding myself crying seeing an old boyfriend with a prettier girl
Here is something to consider as it is something we try in grading classes. It is too basic for most of you here BUT it does allow me to make a point about grading a particular coin. This is for Uncirculated coins as the OP is searching for.
While the suggestions in the ANA grading guide for Unc dollars are not followed by everyone, they allow beginners to get into the "ballpark" quickly. The ANA chart breaks down the grades using descriptions. For the 66 and above grades, the breakdown becomes small. in some cases a few tiny marks. What happens is a coin can be a 69 in two categories yet only a 66 or 67 in others. The coin's strike is not in the ANA's chart but it counts
With the small distinctions at the top of the grading scale, EXPERIENCE, as well as personal subjectivity, is an important consideration. Additionally, the market conditions at the time the coin was graded play a part in the final grade. That is one reason why a coin can jump from a 66 to a 67 after it is seen again.
Unlike other auction houses, I try and screen everything for quality and especially for doctoring. This time, I just did not see this coin when it came in.
I will always investigate issues like this, I believe it is the right hing to do. I reject a lot of coins too. For this sale I rejected a full collection. I am NOT an enabler. There is a cheaper coin that totally got by us elsewhere in the sale so we will just buy it as it very well may be AT. I tra nd atch out for the obvious. But I do live by the mantra to assume about everything sooner or later gets upgraded.
Always remember, grading is subjective. You will see a coin differently then the guy next to you-even if you both look at a pic that shows you the standards.
@JeffersonFrog said:
Having played the 42T1 game a few times, my original thought was, "We can argue FS till the cows come home, but I like the reverse! And I hate the obverse!" Then I went and looked at the GC link AllCoinsRule provided.
Perhaps the real message here is a reminder of the danger of making coin purchase decisions or grade proclamations based on pictures. Youch! Hard to believe it's the same coin.
Great example. The coins look completely different! I learned long ago how to photograph a coin at different angles of pitch and rotation to illustrate WHY a collector MUST ALWAYS tip and rotate a coin at the same time to see all of its faults.
The obverse is WAY overgraded. I don't like it. I would go with the reverse at 66+ at the most. The stains at 9 o'clock are a distraction, to me at least. As for the full steps? Who the h-e-l-l knows what that even means?
@specialist said:
Unlike other auction houses, I try and screen everything for quality and especially for doctoring. This time, I just did not see this coin when it came in.
I will always investigate issues like this, I believe it is the right hing to do. I reject a lot of coins too. For this sale I rejected a full collection. I am NOT an enabler. There is a cheaper coin that totally got by us elsewhere in the sale so we will just buy it as it very well may be AT. I tra nd atch out for the obvious. But I do live by the mantra to assume about everything sooner or later gets upgraded.
Always remember, grading is subjective. You will see a coin differently then the guy next to you-even if you both look at a pic that shows you the standards.
This says a lot about your auction house and in a good way.
Comments
Looking at the magnified picture, I am curious about the 'residue' in the date numbers. Looks like some sort of polishing material...... Any comments/ideas?? Cheers, RickO
Ms. Sperber certainly has the power to get that coin back in its proper holder. So do the right thing please.
I can't imagine how many rolls of the tough to find 1942 you'd have to check to find one this nice. This roll wholesales over $250 so you'll also need to find buyers of all those misses.
I believe the odd look is related to its being an extremely early die strike.
I wish two particular forum members would comment on this coin and listing.
Interesting thread, and good discussions! Always learning something new, this time about 42-P JeffNicks!
The auction description may have a bit of puffery, but what auction descriptions don't? Also, I doubt this coin would ever be in Legend's inventory.
Seems to me this may be a coin that was manufactured so poorly that the bar for a 67FS is lower than for other dates (yes, technically that should not be the case, but most of us know otherwise). Looking at the 8 67FS photos in the condition census, it looks to me that only one of those is better than the coin being discussed here.
Was the True-View done when a MS66 and then transferred to it's MS67 status?
Just curious as the corrosion spot between the E & R in LIBERTY seems to have been conserved looking at the auction photo.
That spot could have held the coin back.
I can't do anything-it is not my coin. The coin is not here-it is one its way to LB> I will re examine it there. if I feel I missed something and deem it bad, i will pull it.
I'm not sure I understand the complaint, where does it say here it went up a grade? I just see talk about flips.
Good eye.
My Ebay Store
I agree as that's what I also see...
Although I can also comprehend how some others think it's a photoshop or paint program enhancement.
WHOA! i hope you are not accusing Legend of photo shopping a coin.
It's just the way the lighting hit the build up material inside and around the numbers of the date in the True-View.
Here's a pic of the steps.
Pete
Here is the problem, upgrades happen every day now. Some times the upgrades are warranted. If we stopped to look at every coin to see if it had been upgraded, chances are we'd never post anything!
Apparently others thought the coin was better then an MS66 as well based upon the prices it traded for.
No excuse, I did not catalog the coin, so i never saw it. BUT if its less then a MS67 won't it sell for market-no matter how its written up? That is a free market. A lot of people WILL see this coin as we show it in person. And who am I to say it isn't a MS67? PCGS seemed to have liked it? I am not so sure I am an expert on technically grading jeff nickels any way.
And please, we NEVER photo shop a coin!
I do promise to review the coin when I get to LB and can see it again. I do reject and or pull coins when really warranted.
The question is, WHO upgraded it? That person would be very aware.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Amen!
Coins also go down in grade after cracked, in fact, that happens more than the reverse. Take any top-pop coin you have, crack it, and send it in right now. I think you will be enlightened in a bad way.
Wow, it's now a top pop 9/0 coin with a PCGS Price Guide value of $2,850.
Big jump from $450, if that's what you got from GC.
As people have said, it's part of the game. Bruce won't play the game anymore so it hits everyone.
Here's the cert page:
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35588475
Sounds good to me.
Legend's Hot Topics mentions helping collectors avoid over graded coins in their sets quite often. Over graded coin avoidance seems to be a service of the top dealers.
It's true that people have specialties.
Will it CaC
sounds like the old club coin establishment saying just pay it
Having played the 42T1 game a few times, my original thought was, "We can argue FS till the cows come home, but I like the reverse! And I hate the obverse!" Then I went and looked at the GC link AllCoinsRule provided.
Perhaps the real message here is a reminder of the danger of making coin purchase decisions or grade proclamations based on pictures. Youch! Hard to believe it's the same coin.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
My eye was drawn to the gunk in the date too. At first I thought it was old PVC which sometimes looks white. But I'm not sure about this one.
Lance.
excellent, professional response
The grader must have been having a very good day.
YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.
Some may think I'm an apologist for all the TPGS's and I'm going to ignore any of those ignorant folks who say I am after reading this post. I just like to debate. Often that involves taking the other side.
Personally, that is a beautiful coin! I also have no idea what it is worth and I don't care.
We all know grading standards have changed. According to the ANA Grading standards, the coin is a no question MS-66. I can think of three things that may be involved for that coin to squeak into the MS-67 grade.
As for the steps (bell lines, bands), I'm old school. I don't want anything crossing the lines. HOWEVER, some folks believe that the "cut" must be deep enough to reach the bottom of the furrow. It does not appear that this mark does so...wiggle room! BTW, I will not mention the company but if you research FBL's on the internet, one reputable source had/still has ? a FBL Franklin with a deep gash across the BL at one end of the bell. Go figure.
If you only lost $250.00 that’s NOT BAD. At least it was not $2,500.00 or $25,000.00 . I losses that much at least once every two weeks. Any money I make a gain on I blow it on STUFF!!!!
don't think cac stickers circulation strike Jefferson nickels
What are you selling at that much of a loss? More importantly, what grade (raw?) coins are you buying?
Ask the IRS that’s all I am saying. I was referring to money in general on the high figures.
Maybe they can help you out.
Looking at the GC photo looks like that gunk may have been there. Harder to spot. I’ll take back my thoughts about photoshop. The grey color just looked like an attempt to “pencil” in the areas.
My Ebay Store
Never mind...…...
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
What are these labels and how do they tie into this thing? I assume you are saying in code (42T1) that you tried for a top pop a few times? Also, no FS makes your coins worth $200 rather than 2 grand, as in the OP's coin.
When I see white residue trapped around/in the relief of a coin I immediately think baking soda residue. If that were the case here I don't think that is something anyone would miss.
I thought that Laura's response was excellent! I also really believe that the artifacts/ gunk in the date needs to be looked at closely. The idea of the coin being photoshopped are not credible to me, as 1) it is such a poor job to be so evident and 2) the idea that Legend would EVER even consider such and act for ANY coin, much less lower-value modern crap, are laughable.
Conventional wisdom used to be that a hit on the steps didn't invalidate the designation if it was shallow enough - and that comes down to an entirely subjective decision by the grading team.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
If you can't figure out which coins are potential upgrades, stop trying and crying.
Also, what does this have to do with the auction company? They didn't put the grade on the coin. Legend should not have even responded to such foolishness. If that coin gets pulled from the auction, every consignor on Earth should stop using them.
Are you going to police every auction out there now, looking for upgrades, and demanding they are all pulled?
Let go completely of any coin you sold ..... there should be no need to follow their lives anymore no matter what
They are not in your control anymore so save the heartache
It's almost as finding myself crying seeing an old boyfriend with a prettier girl
@Paradisefound said: "It's almost as finding myself crying seeing an old boyfriend with a prettier girl."
Can there be a prettier woman collector? But you didn't hear that from me!
FLAG, FLAG!
Here is something to consider as it is something we try in grading classes. It is too basic for most of you here BUT it does allow me to make a point about grading a particular coin. This is for Uncirculated coins as the OP is searching for.
While the suggestions in the ANA grading guide for Unc dollars are not followed by everyone, they allow beginners to get into the "ballpark" quickly. The ANA chart breaks down the grades using descriptions. For the 66 and above grades, the breakdown becomes small. in some cases a few tiny marks. What happens is a coin can be a 69 in two categories yet only a 66 or 67 in others. The coin's strike is not in the ANA's chart but it counts
With the small distinctions at the top of the grading scale, EXPERIENCE, as well as personal subjectivity, is an important consideration. Additionally, the market conditions at the time the coin was graded play a part in the final grade. That is one reason why a coin can jump from a 66 to a 67 after it is seen again.
Unlike other auction houses, I try and screen everything for quality and especially for doctoring. This time, I just did not see this coin when it came in.
I will always investigate issues like this, I believe it is the right hing to do. I reject a lot of coins too. For this sale I rejected a full collection. I am NOT an enabler. There is a cheaper coin that totally got by us elsewhere in the sale so we will just buy it as it very well may be AT. I tra nd atch out for the obvious. But I do live by the mantra to assume about everything sooner or later gets upgraded.
Always remember, grading is subjective. You will see a coin differently then the guy next to you-even if you both look at a pic that shows you the standards.
Great example. The coins look completely different! I learned long ago how to photograph a coin at different angles of pitch and rotation to illustrate WHY a collector MUST ALWAYS tip and rotate a coin at the same time to see all of its faults.
The obverse is WAY overgraded. I don't like it. I would go with the reverse at 66+ at the most. The stains at 9 o'clock are a distraction, to me at least. As for the full steps? Who the h-e-l-l knows what that even means?
This says a lot about your auction house and in a good way.