Court ruling on importation of ancient coins
dlmtorts
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Link below to Fourth Circuit United States Court of Appeals decision today (April 7, 2018) finding in favor of government in forfeiture proceeding for seizure of ancient coins. I have not read this completely but it's linked here for anyone interested.
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Glad I don't collect ancient coins.....I just sell them as I find them.......oh wait, did I just admit that?
bob
So, I tried to read through this as it was pretty interesting! It sounds like they consider anything foreign over 100 years old an antique and trying to import them can leave you open to seizure by the government. Which sounds similar to New York's laws regarding metal detecting. I find the whole 100 years old part super stupid. Seeing as it keeps moving the goal post as time goes on. It is a shame that their coins were taken. Do you know if the coins seized got returned to the original sender?
A government accident left me a former man, a potato. That photo on my profile is a low resolution selfie. I like coins.
Our government hard at work.
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This could be a real problem for collectors of ancients.
You can buy and sell ancient coins in the US, you just can't buy them overseas and import them.
I wonder if Canada has similar laws. Could ancients be legally imported through dealers there, then sold here? What if we import the ancients through a third country not associated with the history of the coins?
I question the feasibility and practicality of a widespread ban on importation of all ancient coins.
I will be interested to hear what Harlan Berk and other prominent ancient dealers have to say about this.
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This is going to limit the roles for Nicolas Cage.
That's OK. He's self-limiting (in a variety of ways).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
IIRC, this issue is part of a world-wide effort to stifle antiquities smuggling as codified by international treaties.
We have antiquity laws here in the US. As mentioned above NY has it's own antiquity laws. But, the Feds have their on on Federal lands (mainly in the Western US). You cannot pick up and remove anything from Federal lands that is over 75 years old. This applies to our deserts in Nevada including mining camps and such. It also includes ALL Indian graffiti (petroglyphs) and such. The fines are substantial. The Feds also do not allow for metal detecting in any of their National Parks. I've run afoul of that one and damn near ended up in handcuffs. So, laws on old stuff are everywhere. Like ivory, you have to be able to prove it was harvested legally, is over XX years old and then you might be able to keep it.
bob
It's easier said than done for some types but overall, buying pedigreed coins will prevent any issues and allow importation.
The unfortunate counterpoint to that is, historically, many dealers/auction houses have not kept track of pedigrees. Services exist to help search for pedigrees but they are imperfect.
The notion that ancient coins are used for funding ISIS and other terrorist groups is absurd and has been thoroughly debunked but such is the the world in which we live.
I dare someone to try and take my ancient coin's!
Geez, another unnecessary issue in life !!!
There goes the widow's mite.
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These laws are absurd..... I understand the original issue, and believe there is just cause for such action - but in a very limited sense. This, and other laws, have taken a very wide perspective... up to the point that one cannot pick up items from the soil that have been there for many, many years and would stay there if not recovered. Another example of unintended consequences.... Good intentions, but formulated by shortsighted individuals without a real understanding of the issues. Cheers, RickO
It sounds like a pain. I'm glad I don't collect these.
That case changes nothing about current law. It is simply an appeal of a previous case and the court rejected the grounds for appeal. The antiquities importation issue is not new and has been an issue for ancients dealers for a long time. That's why most new coins on the market tend to come from a limited subset of countries, largely Eastern European, who either don't have or aren't enforcing a ban on exportation.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That was an interesting read. I can't saw that I agree with ancient=100+ years. A country can request that their "ancient coins" not be imported into the US from legitimate routes seems a bit over ruling. I can understand an argument that "ancient coins" not be exported from that country. But coins and other items of commerce have historically left borders legitimately as that is how commerce works. In my opinion a feel good law on the books but not realistic in right or wrong. This is the type of law that is better suited for the anti-looting enforcement of Egyptian tombs, not coins that legitimately travel borders and countries at the time of issue.
In this case, the coins were imported through a dealer from the United Kingdom. The end result would have been no different had they used Canada. The way I read this... Import from any country, other than the issuing country with written permission, is not allowed.
The Government closed off lands near us to protect from the public. I see them DRIVING all over the area of Preservation leaving huge truck tracks from government vehicles. I just want to hike! Sorry for the rant.
btw Is the government going to confiscate the huge Getty collection of ancient coins?
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As others have alluded to... what about vast collections held in museums? I would routinely visit the collection of ancients at the Walters in Baltimore.
On a different note: Since the age stamp is 100 years, how does this affect other countries holdings of 18th and 19th century US coins. I'm sure the law was written to affect just importation into this country, but could someone use this as precedent to get US coins back? Inquiring minds and all...
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that was some tough reading. didn't make it all the way.
do remember something about "pillage" and no other viable alternative?
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The law prevents importation not possession. In some cases, countries have requested and received the return of their cultural heritage. But items that have been in a museum since before the law was passed are not subject to immediate seizure. Such items have always been subject to litigation, however.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If it's not mine, I don't want it. If it's someone else's and I found it, I would appreciate a reward.
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It looks like most people didn't read the decision. It is lawful to posses ancient coins. It is lawful to import the coins as long as you have documentation of provenance or a certificate from the originating country for export. If not, that is where you can POSSIBLY run into trouble with customs. The seizure would have to occur during the importation of coins, otherwise you're in the clear...from my interpretation of this.
The coins also have to be determined to have “cultural property,” that is, property “specifically designated by each State [Party] as being of importance for archaeology, prehistory, history, literature, art or science.”
It is also my understanding (from quickly reading the PDF) that in order for any of this to happen, a country would first have to submit a "MOU" or a Memorandum of Understanding with the US State Department. The only two countries that were noted in the PDF as having submitted a MOU were Cypress and China.
It is also important to note that the PNG and Spinks ACTIVELY worked to have CBP (customs) confiscate the coins so the PNG could fight this law in US courts. CBP does not go through 99.99% of packages. Spinks specifically and purposefully noted on the customs form that these ancient coins from China and Cypress were from the restricted era, country and did not have any documentation or provenance....so while this isn't great for active ancient collectors, I think that the number of instances where this will occur is very limited.
I imagine if you collect rare versions of any of these coins, the restricted access and legal hoops would only make available supplies even more limited and force prices up sharply. That's not a win for anyone. The court had the opportunity to overrule its previous ruling but declined to do so. You don't think customs will screen a large percentage of high value packages? Lying or encouraging others to do the same on customs forms is a huge legal mistake so deflating declared value to discourage searches isn't a viable option. I can understand why ancient collectors would be upset.
The U.S. should tell China that it will respect its "cultural property" treaty rights when it starts respecting U.S. intellectual property rights IMHO. Off topic, but it really irks me.
I find quite a few of the designs, and the history associated with these coins, extremely interesting. I was seriously thinking about starting to change collecting foci and begin buying ancients. Until now.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Will the Republic of Texas be coming after my avatar, demanding return of their intellectual cultural property?