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Esoteric Guess the Grade Thread...
Regulated
Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here are a trio of wonderful things that have crossed my desk this week - Let's see whether anyone can go 3/3:
An 1849 Mormon $5:
An 1855 Wass $20:
An 1861 Clark Gruber $10:
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
2
Comments
OMG, are you serious? Sweet !!!
My Commercial grades:
The bottom two are in MS-61 and MS-62 slabs.
AU50
XF45
XF40
PCGS AU53:
PCGS AU55:
PCGS AU58:
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What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Regulated
I added that the bottom two are in MS slabs while you were posting the LOL.
You big tease. You have some collection. A territorial coin grading set.
PCGSCoinfacts is my friend...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Guessing the slab grades as no way to tell what my opinion would be without seeing.
AU-58
MS-62
AU-58+
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
58,53,60
Mormon: MS 63
Wass: MS 63+
Gruber: MS 63
50
50
50
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
63
64
64
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
35
45
55
53,55,58
I was going MS on all three based on the weak striking of these issues, guess I was wrong.
There might be, like 3 people who can accurately grade territorial gold and none of them work for a TPG.
I don't grok the way these things are graded, but
53
45
58
MS62 wag
AU53
AU58
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
62
61
61
I'm terrible with territorials...
Two out of three ain't bad.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
When this is over, I hope we can discuss what we think they should be graded. One member already pointed out that "strike" is a factor.
62, 61, & 58
62
63
61
58, 58, 61
58
61
61
50, 55, 55. I am sure the slabs say differently, however, based on pictures, that would be my evaluation -and, that is how I would price them if I were buying. Cheers, RickO
The big reveal:
All three are in MS61 holders - they are also the finest I've seen for each issue in private hands. Here is my analysis of the three:
The 1849 Mormon $5 - I've see the PCGS MS60 (not original/processed looking), the Newman NGC MS61 (PCGS AU58+ now - great color, wonderful luster, but definite high point wear), the Archangel coin (both PCGS and NGC AU58, but has strong claims to BU), and one other NGC MS61 that didn't have a pedigree information (processed looking). The coin above is better than any of these, and is now in our census of Mormon Gold at #1.
The issue is generally well-struck; however, the dies are fairly low-relief and simple, which I think many people interpret as weakly struck. When there is strike weakness, it appears along the bottom of the right sleeve and at the upper right edge of the bishop's hat. This can make grading a little tough, since these high points pick up wear, as well. The difference between unstruck metal and wear is subtle, but with some experience, it's pretty obvious. At a glance, you can usually tell a lightly circulated Mormon $5 by a color/luster change in the fields - even high-end AU58s pick up light wear in the unprotected areas almost immediately. Here is a photo of the Archangel coin, which I think is tied for #2 honors with the Newman piece (I generally knock the processed coins out of contention for top honors, unless they're demonstrably better than original coins) - you can see wear on the sleeves and in the fields, as well:
The Wass $20 - Unquestionably the very best of this emergency issue (at least in private hands - NGC just graded an example in a Hungarian Museum MS63 - it was given to the museum by Wass in the 1850s). I've handled the NGC MS60, which is now in an NGC MS61 holder - it's lustrous, but was dipped at some point and has a weak strike. The SSCA AU58 that was recently graded looks lustrous, but has evident high-point and field wear:
As far as strike goes, these pieces are often terribly made - they were an emergency issue made while the San Francisco Mint was shut down in 1855 due to parting acid shortages, and Wass Molitor was an Assay firm first, and a coiner second. The weakness on this pieces usually manifests in the stars, at the coronet and on the eagle's wings and neck. The MS61 at the top of the thread is about as well-struck as I have ever seen, with only two weakly struck stars.
The 1861 Clark Gruber $10 - This coin was the first Uncirculated example graded by PCGS, and is the most original and lustrous of the three, all of which I have seen. NGC has graded a number of MS61s and MS62s - I have seen about half, and only one that I can recall might be as nice as this one.
This issue is almost always weakly struck on the eagle's claws - maybe 10% of the coins out there show significant detail there. Here's an AU55 that is actually as well-struck as they come:
Hopefully this was helpful...
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
After hoping for a discussion, I cannot add anything. LOL. Your description of surface clues and color is tops!
Thanks - grading on Pioneer and Colonials is definitely tricky. Where 19th century US material is concerned, you're looking at factory-made coins; this sort of stuff is bench-made, so to speak. Being able to analyze the surfaces is key, which makes grading this stuff by photo A TON more difficult.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
You want technical grades, buying grades, selling grades or slab grades?
ALL OF THE ABOVE should be very informative.
Wait a minute; I'll set up the ol' dart board!
If no one takes a guess, I shall later. After all, our opinion means nothing in the "real" world!
I liked the reveal $5 Mormon and $10 Clark & Gruber better than the OPs, but that is just an opinion. Liked the color on the $5, and the strike/color on the $10. You would need to be exposed to several of these to learn proper grading and look.
Thanks!
If one is consistent, then "wear/abrasion" is the primary attribute of "grade." Detail of design in the dies or a struck coin is irrelevant.
Pieces such as those illustrated are so deeply ingrained in emotional expressions that objective "grading" is impossible, much as CaptH implied.
Grading a coin by its actual condition of preservation was completely abandoned by most by 1990 at the latest. IMO, much sooner.
Nope. That is false logic which would make all coin grading meaningless.
Repeat - If one is consistent, then "wear/abrasion" is the primary attribute of "grade." Detail of design in the dies or a struck coin is irrelevant.
These territorial issues are exceptions to honest, consistent grading because of their huge emotional baggage, not because of ignorance.
As soon as I saw the pictures, my first thought was that the Mormon and the Wass had to be the finest known.
As such, one could just as easily grade these with a "$" rather than an "MS" number.
Now you've opened a can of worms, Logic be damned.
Roger, you have just partially described TRUE TECHNICAL GRADING as I developed it in Washington for our internal records to identify coins. Let me elaborate a little more. Once a coin had a trace of wear (no longer MS) the ONLY thing that changed its grade was the loss of more detail. Any problems were described.
Guess what, if we dump out that "Net Gading nonsense," the TPGS's have returned to that approach after 45 years of condemning technical grading (NEVER practiced at ANACS in CO). The only problem now is the standard for MS has slipped to stupid levels of friction.
As for MS coins. What you said applied. Once a coin had no trace of luster loss from friction wear, it was considered Uncirculated. Then the coin was only judged by its condition of preservation from when it dropped off the press. Thus, strike, and eye appeal did not enter the equation. Weak strike, unattractive toning, extremely excessive marks, etc. were noted separately. We graded coins for identification; not to put a value on them. The technical grading standards used for internal records at ANACS (DC location only) starting in 1973 did not change at all over time and continued to be used at the first TPGS - INSAB in DC until I left about 1986 (?). Obviously, our standards for MS coins would NEVER and DID NEVER work in the commercial marketplace where eye appeal is all important.