Hypothetical: You buy a 1799 $1 on eBay...
MrEureka
Posts: 24,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
The coin is in a Capital Plastics holder, sealed with tamper-proof tape on all four sides. The coin looks like a perfectly original VF and the seller is a long time dealer with great feedback. You're hesitant to buy it because he says there's no return privilege if you take it out of the holder, but you buy it anyway and send payment by check. (You hate PayPal!) It arrives, it looks great - and you should know a great coin when you see it, after collecting coins seriously for 30+ years - and you open the holder in preparation for sending it to PCGS. Instantly, your heart sinks when you see that the coin has a reeded edge. It's counterfeit! What now?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
You are screwed,,,,,,, unless the dealer is a really honest guy.
I’d understand that there’s no refund policy from the seller and ask him for a refund anyways. If he says yes, great! Says no, take it up with eBay. They have a buyer’s protection. You’ll get your money back somehow.
Always buying nice toned coins! Searching for a low grade 1873 Arrows DDO Dime and 1842-O Small Date Quarter.
Have second thoughts about hating PayPay.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Just noticed "eBay" in the title. Absolutely agree with this.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Since fraud is involved talk to your bank about doing a "claw back" to retrieve your money. Then start a 500 post thread outing this crooked coin dealer. Under the circumstance, it's obvious the dealer knew it was bad.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Title cannot pass on a counterfeit coin.
Ask for your money back. A 'done deal' should not absolve a seller from owing up to selling a counterfeit.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
SNAD............ Significantly Not As Described
If there were great pics of the coin in the listing that can absolutely show it's the same coin the seller better take it back. If he refuses start with eBay. If that fails, call the local police where the seller lives and have them start the investigation.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I also think that the seller knew that the coin wasn't genuine.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If the dealer belongs to professional organizations like the ANA or PNG, lodge a complaint. Most dealers don’t want their long term reputations dragged though the mud for a $2,000 sale.
Call Ebay, explain the situation, money refunded.
I don't foresee any problems. Just a hassle.
eBay can't refund anything or PayPal in this instance. Buyer paid with a check. If the seller doesn't do so willingly it will probably take some time but you might win with the bank IF you can prove it counterfit and IF you can prove it is the same coin that was sent to you.
Might be difficult.
The red flags were flying from the start. The buyer made a big mistake by purchasing a raw coin that is well known to be heavily faked. He is probably out of luck.
Resistance to refunding money on undisclosed problems like this would show really bad character by the seller; all excuses are off in terms of "no returns" on contracts with elements of fraud.
Contact dealer first, if no response.
EBAY SNAD.
Counterfeit + pictures showing why it is counterfeit.
After you get your money back. contact Secret Service on how to properly mail counterfeit money in the US Mail and how to insure it against loss.
https://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/offices/Treasurer-US/Pages/if-you-suspect.aspx
Take a BIG STEEL STAMP and put a giant X on it for good measure, after you get your money back.
Am I the only one who is getting the feeling that this isn't a hypothetical situation?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Mr. Eureka's usage of 'hypothetical situation' does seem lawyerly.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Perhaps he is asking for a friend.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Just because it wasn't really eBay and it wasn't really a 1799 Dollar and it wasn't really in a Capital Plastic holder doesn't mean it's not a hypothetical.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
So it was hypothetically a different coin, in a different holder. Was the seller still a long-time seller, with great feedback? Please hypothetically state that you didn't sell the coin to yourself.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
The plot thickens.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Just because title doesn't pass doesn't mean that payment can't. In fact, it already has.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
ALWAYS pay with a credit card so you can do a chargeback. If the dealer will not take a credit card - unless it's bullion and a national retailer - go somewhere else. Credit cards (and PayPal processing of credit cards) give much more fraud prevention. You can hate PayPal or credit cards or both, but this is about insurance.
Use your head. If the condition is that you can't crack it out of a TPGS holder, that is reasonable. If the condition is that you can't crack it out of a generic coin holder - you were warned.
SNAD will probably carry the day for you UNLESS the dealer manages to somehow convince ebay that removal from the holder is "altering" the item.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
As other have said, SNAD. Indicate you didn't received the coin described. Regardless of what the seller says you should be made whole.
I have never bought a coin without having a return privilege. The run, not walk away from the deal light starts flashing when I get that or the buy it “as is” line gets tossed in my face. I like to feel that I know a lot but there is always something new to learn. Many years ago I had a “good” friend offer me “as is” an extremely rare colonial. I didn’t like the terms of the deal so I took a pass. I found out soon after that the coin was a big time fake. Unfortunately someone else bought the coin. Ouch!!
Hope your situation works out.
Well, you hadn't oughta do that in the first place. That is what tpgs' are for.
this
Really? Then how do all those people collect contemporary counterfeits? To resurrect an old thread: you're saying I couldn't buy an Omega $20?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I think you could reject the sale if you thought it was a genuine $20, but found out later it was an Omega. That would fall under criminal statutes therefore voiding the transfer of title or ownership. You can't legally give someone title to an illegal item. You could go ahead and knowingly risk criminal possession, which in the case of a single coin would probably be confiscation and a fine. For the federal statutes, it centers more around the "intent to defraud." Many states also have criminal statutes regarding possession of counterfeit coins, and there is no uniformity regarding them. If the government decides to take a hard look at your counterfeit Omega, they would say you can't have "title" or ownership of an illegal item.
Simply put, there can be no legal title to an illegal item, so the seller never had "title" to transfer.
What if I stole your Omega? Would that be a crime? You would have to claim title to an illegal object in order to make a claim against me for theft, right? Also what if I stole your "selectively legal to own" marijuana? LOL
Sometimes reeded edges are added afte rthe facct. For example, I do own a goldish V nickel (no CENTS) that has a reeded edge and I can confirm knowingly it is NOT a counterfeit.
So, yes your newly aquired 1799 silver dollar may very well be genuine and there is no need to go blaming the dealer for any malfesance.
This is hypothetically possible but extremely unlikely. Adding a reeded edge to a genuine early silver dollar makes no sense whatsoever and will actually destroy the value of the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Regardless of experience, if buying raw examples of a commonly faked high dollar issue via eBay, you need to re-think your acquisition strategy.
In any case though, since the coin came from a dealer, not some Joe Schmow selling “grandpa’s coins”, you should contact the dealer and try to arrange a return. Before involving eBay, law enforcement, etc.
reed the edge, plate in gold, pass your nickel as a $5 gold (racketeer nickel)
That would not be a good idea.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Reeded edges were so ontrapranures could not shave off the metal edges and melt them to make other coins. Actually a pretty solid idea and this preventive medican kept evil doers at bay.
Why copper cents didn't bother is anyones guess.
Copper is a low value base metal so it's very unlikely someone would shave some copper off the edge of a cent. Don't forget that at the early mint applying edge devices (lettering, reeds, etc) was a separate operation that added to the cost of coin production.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This hypothetical seems to be coming out in bits and pieces. Give the whole story, Andy.
Agree. We promise not to laugh.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire