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Congrats NGC!
messydesk
Posts: 20,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
A counterfeiter of NGC slabs and importer of fake bars and coins got his today.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
24
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Excellent!
Bravo!!!
Nicely done! Sounds like they let him dig his own grave by being patient til they had everything they needed as opposed to going aggressively at him when they first learned about him.
Great!
Great. Hopefully he will get the maximum penalty.
Excellent news!!
Nice!
Yay !!!
i wonder if or when pcgs will try to go after a few of the fake slabs ive seen out there??????
HAPPY COLLECTING
From what I heard at a recent PCGS luncheon counterfeit slabs are very much on the front burner
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
a seller of counterfeit coins in counterfeit NGC holders has pleaded guilty to importing counterfeit coins
Sounds like this guy was just the middle-man, who will replace him and how many others are out there? Need to shut down the source.
This is hands down the biggest risk facing the hobby today and is enough of a concern for me to consider exiting altogether. The TPGS don’t often publicize the extent of the problem, maybe for fear of spooking collectors, but I have yet to hear from any TPGS a way of guaranteeing the consumer comfort that the coin in the holder is legitamit
What happy news
Good to hear!!
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
once in a while, the bad guys get punished, needs to happen more often
Back in the late 1980's there was a coin dealer who made fake first generation PCGS rattler slabs. He would buy genuine AU58 super slider coins (primarily Morgan dollars and Saint Gaudens double eagles) and put them in his fake slabs with MS63, 64, or higher fake labels. The labels were quite good but the serifs weren't quite right especially on the E's. He got away with it for awhile until people started sending these coins back for a grade review under the PCGS grade guarantee. PCGS traced these coins back to the coin dealer who was then apprehended, tried, convicted, and sent to prison. Much to their credit PCGS made the victims of this fraud whole. Of course PCGS then brought out the second generation slab which was far more difficult to counterfeit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Nice!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Good Job! Hope they keep it up.
It has been vitally important in stopping such nonsense that NGC has "Imaged virtually every coin they have encapsulated since 2008."
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
That is great news.... Really good to see that justice comes to these criminals. Also glad to see it publicized. Cheers, RickO
I bet you guys would be surprised how little his punishment will be. Just be his plea I bet it is more monetary than punitive.
Any lawyer able to look up the case?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
1:17-mj-02028-JS USA v. KIRSCHNER (magistrate judge proceedings)
1:18-cr-00360-RBK USA v. KIRSCHNER (current proceedings)
Sentencing: 10/01/18
Plea Deal Attached
Federal Sentencing Guidelines Table Attached
There are disputes as to offense level, but even the most generous to the defendant would recommend a prison sentence.
He pretended to be an ATF agent while selling fake coins and bars. Someone he was ripping off brought a real ATF agent along for the buy, and the real ATF agent arrested him. I don't think NGC had anything to do with the investigation or arrest.
https://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/crime/2018/06/25/jonathan-kirschner-moorestown-atf-agent/732347002/
It looks like if the judge approves the plea agreement, he's looking at 3 years of probation. Am I missing something?
Very good. It is about time NGC and PCGS should do something like this.
Where are you getting that from? He faces a maximum of 3 years imprisonment on the impersonation count and 15 years on the counterfeiting count. My comments are based on the federal sentencing guidelines which are not mandatory. A judge has discretion to impose a harsher or more lenient sentence. We won't know the actual sentence until October 1.
Oops, I got that from not reading the plea letter thoroughly. He said he's been a patient in a mental hospital in his plea application. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Wow, this guy was a serious counterfeiter, not just a guy flipping a few coins.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
The feds are prosecuting more and more coin counterfeiting offenses. There was another major counterfeiter in the North East that was flipping counterfeit Morgan Dollars he bought from Alibaba. I think his name was Sithole or something to that effect. I hope this is the beginning of a new trend in aggressively defending this nation's coinage from counterfeiters although I can't help but wonder how aggressively the government would have pursued the defendant in the OP if he didn't also commit other crimes (e.g. impersonation of an ATF agent to help carry out his crimes).
I'm sure he will plea bargain (make a deal). Hopefully part of that deal will be that he must provide some sort of list of NGC slabs (serial numbers) that he counterfeited and that list would be posted for all to access.
The plea deal is attached in the thread.
This is great news as none of us like the counterfeiters.... what gave him up anyway- maybe he misspelled NGC. Bale has been set at three silver dollars and two gold Buffaloes. Just kidding....they need to learn how he was able to do what he did, his contacts, his sources, as he is a wolf that preys on all of us and doubtful he is a lone wolf.
Thanks, I initially only read and reacted to the OP. After reviewing the "deal", I can only say, at least the judge can still throw the book at him.
In my opinion, this is where NGC does a better job than PCGS. Having the slab pics (no matter how poor they are) is a HUGE benefit that I wished PCGS did as well. It directly protects collectors from buying counterfeit slabs or "gassed" slabs (think edynamicmarketing).
wicked cool, give em the maximum
The grading companies, Ebay and Paypal should all realize that their best effort to stop the counterfeiting sales is to highly publicize success stores such as this. Why PP and Ebay refuse to do so doesn't make sense.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Perp was posing as an ATF agent to make sales
and
Man who faked ATF badge in scam caught by real agent
I wonder how much interest the Feds would have had in this if he had not been posing as a federal agent.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
I suspect there are many more like sellers on ebay. Sad thing is when an honest flipper procures these on ebay they usually end up back on ebay.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
I would be interested to hear what ICTA's involvement or influence was, if any, with regard to getting the Feds to nab this guy.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
This guy is either delusional or just plain stupid. Why would anyone impersonate a Federal Agent while selling counterfeit coins and gold (a crime).
I know I sound cynical, but I bet the reason the feds got involved was because of the ATF Agent Impersonation.
Hear in Chicago, unless it is Government Money, the Feds will only go after non violent fraud cases greater than $1 million.
I am really glad he was arrested.
And why would he pick the ATF of all federal agencies?
I had my wife (patent and tradmark attorney) go into the docket and print out the plea. Doesn’t look like much but she kept saying that she was surprised that NGC has filed a civil case against him. She says that is where the real pain will be inflicted
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Awesome!
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