BTW Massachusetts a few weeks ago tried to enact a 'law' whereby retailers, even small convenience stores, would have to pay the state sales tax they collect** ON A DAILY BASIS. **
It didn't get passed............this time
“The ruling only directly affected South Dakota, which had sought to collect taxes from online retailers with more than $100,000 in annual sales or 200 transactions in the state.
“States would be well advised not to try to go further than South Dakota did,” said former U.S. solicitor general Paul Clement. “If a state deviates from that model, they’ll be asking for trouble.”
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@keets said:
as long as there are taxes there will be a black-market. also,
it has always been the responsibility of the merchant to "collect" a tax and not necessarily the customer to "pay" the tax. it may sound like a trivial nuance but that's sort of the way it works. a merchant pays tax to the responsible Agency, the Agency doesn't go to my house with a ledger of all the purchases I made in a calendar year to collect.
it seems that with this ruling the IRS is saying I have to declare every online out-of-state purchase I make in a calendar year and pay the tax on it. what should be done is point of sale taxation like everything else. if that were to happen it would see an influx of drop shipping from states with no sales tax, then our Uncle would try to collect in your home state at that tax rate.
If one buys from a merchant in a state with no ST then wouldn't they still be required to pay the tax in their state?
I have not read the articles on the ruling yet, mainly because I expect that the actual application of the ruling will evolve. I do think, however, that there may be some confusion on how taxes work on out of state sales.
Unless new laws dramatically change how taxes work, the only thing that will likely change is how taxes are collected on mail order purchases from out of state sellers. In the expected scenario, sellers will have to collect sales tax based on the buyer's home state (and city, if applicable) sales tax, essentially treating the sale as if it had occurred in the buyer's state. For the buyer, it means no more tax-free purchases (unless they live in a state that has no sales tax). For sellers, it means tracking all applicable tax laws and rates, and forwarding taxes collected to the relevant tax authorities.
That's how I understand it, anyway. I can only hope that there are generous exclusions and thresholds, but that will be up to the states to decide.
Here is an unintended consequence that I expect to see happen: more face-to-face transactions for cash that will bypass the state tax. The buyer used to buy from out of state to avoid the tax, so they will find a wiling seller locally to do a sale for cash under the table,.
The real nightmare will be places like eBay. Will they collect the taxes for sellers who are not established businesses? How will they know if a buyer is exempt? etc. etc.
here's a thought --- currently in Ohio there is no sales tax on coins, that short lived law repealed by the Legislature 1-2 years ago. does that mean I shouldn't have to pay any tax on coins I buy online?? my thinking is that a I shouldn't.
internet sales is a thing that is peculiar and messes with tax codes. the point of purchase and the point of sale are in two distinct locations despite what lawyers try to say. it's akin to the way income tax is collected --- we often work in a different taxing location than where we live, yet the "resident" location still gets its (un)fair share.
the morale of the story is that if a Government has knowledge of money changing hands in some way they will pass a law which assures that we have to give them some of it.
@bronco2078 said:
Accountants of America REJOICE!!!!! your prayers have finally been answered
Computer software is all that is needed. Push a button, and distribute the collected taxes.
Aint free. Still one more expense.
My guess is that ebay will let their users use the software for free. There are so many different web hosting sites for personal websites that in order to compete with one another, they would have the tax software built into their platform as well at no cost. Of course, you would still be paying your web hosting fees and ebay fees.
As a buyer, I am telling you that I take ALL costs of the coin into account when buying. So if I was bidding on one of your auctions, I would bid 6% less because of having to pay KY tax now. If I am like that, I know I am not alone. If someone like me wins your items only OCCASIONALLY then you would be losing more money because of this new rule. Still not making sense yet?
Its actually very complicated . Some states with sales tax exempt certain items or charge more on certain items. Who is going to care enough to keep track of that nonsense ?
In Mass you can buy frozen pizza in a store and there is no tax . If they heat up the pizza for you then you pay a meals tax. Books I think are taxed but magazines aren't ??
My relatives live in Colorado , the nearest town is winter park which has some sort of town sales tax, their house is in an unincorporated area so they don't owe the town tax if they buy things in the town. Its ridiculous
@wondercoin said:
“The ruling only directly affected South Dakota, which had sought to collect taxes from online retailers with more than $100,000 in annual sales or 200 transactions in the state.
“States would be well advised not to try to go further than South Dakota did,” said former U.S. solicitor general Paul Clement. “If a state deviates from that model, they’ll be asking for trouble.”
Wondercoin
When the Federal income tax was passed in 1913, it was 1% on certain incomes. One legislator who was against it said if we let the Federal government get its foot in this door, eventually this tax will become 5%. He was laughed at.
I predict states will go as far as they can in collecting every dime they can from this tax. Regardless of what Paul Clement said.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
@keets said:
... it seems that with this ruling the IRS is saying I have to declare every online out-of-state purchase I make in a calendar year and pay the tax on it. what should be done is point of sale taxation like everything else. if that were to happen it would see an influx of drop shipping from states with no sales tax, then our Uncle would try to collect in your home state at that tax rate.
The IRS has nothing to do with this, as there is no national sales tax. If every state and local taxing authority tries to collect the tax from sellers, the only way sellers would be able to stay out of trouble is if the selling platforms automatically computed and remitted the tax on behalf of sellers. The additional cost of doing so would be passed on to the sellers, perhaps not as a specific line item on their invoices, but in the form of adjusted fee structures, reduced specials, and other fees. Given eBay's general level of competence, I imagine that sellers of coins will be spending a lot of time trying to get inappropriately collected taxes refunded that were collected for states with no sales tax.
On the bright side, South Dakota requires in-state sales of at least $100,000 before sales taxes are due, so perhaps other states have or will have such limits as well. I could see other states starting to collect taxes at dollar one, however. Yet another thing to keep track of.
I could also see a run on PO boxes and mailbox store boxes in southeastern Wisconsin (5.5% tax) for high-volume online shoppers wanting to avoid the 8-10% tax in Illinois.
@giorgio11 said:
What about all of us legal dealers who have a website and do shows (occasionally, like me) or more frequently (like, I think, Charmy and many others)? It's pretty easy to collect sales tax for one state, Virginia, where we are based ... especially because no one living in Virginia will buy a coin from me when they can buy the same thing, more or less, out of state for 5.3% less. Now, if I have to start tracking and collecting sales tax from 50 states, I am out of business.
Think about a large coin dealer like Heritage or Stack's Bowers or Legend. Tracking sales tax from 50 states? A nightmare!
Kind regards,
George
If 50 state tax returns is a nightmare, what would you call 7,500 local tax returns?
Heritage, Stack's etc. already collect state tax where appropriate. Here in Georgia there is no sales tax on coin and bullion purchases/sales so they do not charge me when I buy. Your state may have a similar law. I bought a couple of coins last week at a local antique auction house and even though they charge sales tax on their sales they did not charge me on the coins.
I do pay sales tax on my in state (Georgia) non-coin eBay and Amazon sales. I file one sales tax return with a column/row for each county and taxing jurisdiction in the state and Georgia takes care of distributing the funds. Filing 50 state returns would put an end to my on-line sales, just wouldn't be worth the bookkeeping effort.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
If a break is to be given to small companies the larger companies will utilize them to beat the system, which will cause the states to go ahead and make everyone a tax collector. Can't believe it has taken this long when such a large amount of tax income is available for the states. It will definitely define how internet business is done in the very near future.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@giorgio11 said:
What about all of us legal dealers who have a website and do shows (occasionally, like me) or more frequently (like, I think, Charmy and many others)? It's pretty easy to collect sales tax for one state, Virginia, where we are based ... especially because no one living in Virginia will buy a coin from me when they can buy the same thing, more or less, out of state for 5.3% less. Now, if I have to start tracking and collecting sales tax from 50 states, I am out of business.
Think about a large coin dealer like Heritage or Stack's Bowers or Legend. Tracking sales tax from 50 states? A nightmare!
Kind regards,
George
If 50 state tax returns is a nightmare, what would you call 7,500 local tax returns?
Heritage, Stack's etc. already collect state tax where appropriate. Here in Georgia there is no sales tax on coin and bullion purchases/sales so they do not charge me when I buy. Your state may have a similar law. I bought a couple of coins last week at a local antique auction house and even though they charge sales tax on their sales they did not charge me on the coins.
I do pay sales tax on my in state (Georgia) non-coin eBay and Amazon sales. I file one sales tax return with a column/row for each county and taxing jurisdiction in the state and Georgia takes care of distributing the funds. Filing 50 state returns would put an end to my on-line sales, just wouldn't be worth the bookkeeping effort.
My bad. It looks like major auction houses like Heritage only collect sales tax if shipping to a customer lives in a state where they have a physical presence (CA, TX, NY) or if picked up at a auction in a state that charges sales tax when the sale is being conducted in that state.
Everything else I said is true.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
It is simply another expense of doing business or pursuing daily interests. Heck of a lot better than a national VAT as proposed by Hoover's administration in 1931.
@tommy44 I knew you would discover this soon enough ... Tough to keep track of everything eh?
I have bought so much from Heritage over the years that I knew sales tax was not usually an issue since I live in Virginia and they don't conduct many numismatic auctions in the Commonwealth.
For the fiftieth time, every state has its own rules with respect to sales and use tax of tangible personal property. Some states exempt some types of personal property from sales and use tax, period, others except some types of personal property from sales and use tax, if a particular sale is below a thresh hold amount.
Localities often add their own levies onto the state sales tax.
Each state has its own thresh hold regarding the amount of gross sales per annum, above which a vendor is required to have a state sales tax permit. Such thresh hold amount includes all sales made in the particular state, whether they be in person, mail order, or over the internet.
Sales taxes may be required to be remitted on a monthly, quarterly, or annual basis, depending on facts and circumstances.
Some states exempt sales of tangible personal property that are made by vendors who have a physical presence in a particular state under a specified number of days.
If you have any further questions about this, the onus is on you to contact applicable state sales taxing authorities in the state(s) where you do business. You will not be a happy camper if a particular state deems that you must have a sales tax permit and you don't have one.
If you are selling tangible personal property through an internet vendor, you will avoid a lot of headaches by being able to use its software with respect to calculation and payment of sales taxes. Said software may even inform you whether in fact you need to get a sales tax permit in a particular jurisdiction.
Please do not send me any PMs about this. I have discussed this matter on far too many occasions on this forum, and will not answer any further questions in this regard.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
My guess is that Ebay and Amazon will collect and remit the sales tax.
The "problem" is going to be with sellers who offer product on their websites, having to collect and remit the sales tax, especially with each state going to have their own set of rules.
Another early guess is that a number of states will band together and have sellers remit the sales tax to one address or online payment account. But I doubt if some of the bigger states such as California and New York will be so accomodating towards small sellers.
We shall see what happens.
One thing for sure, certain politicians, lawyers, accountants, and software firms are going to get filthy rich over this, while again, the small business owner suffers under the cost and time waste of burdonsome paperwork...and for what? So that big government will squander the money anyway, and then later on come back for more money to squander.
And don't forget the consumer having to pay more in taxes. Death by 1,000 cuts. Big government is eating the middle class alive as the appetite of malignantly growing big government is insatiable.
@giorgio11 said:
What about all of us legal dealers who have a website and do shows (occasionally, like me) or more frequently (like, I think, Charmy and many others)? It's pretty easy to collect sales tax for one state, Virginia, where we are based ... especially because no one living in Virginia will buy a coin from me when they can buy the same thing, more or less, out of state for 5.3% less. Now, if I have to start tracking and collecting sales tax from 50 states, I am out of business.
Think about a large coin dealer like Heritage or Stack's Bowers or Legend. Tracking sales tax from 50 states? A nightmare!
Kind regards,
George
If 50 state tax returns is a nightmare, what would you call 7,500 local tax returns?
Pay the sales tax to the required entity from paypal but pay it 5 cents at a time. With their 30 minimum transaction fee, it will be a GIANT BLACK HOLE of costs for the states.
Without going into the details, I had to refund about $15 to a person one time due to a part he damaged and then filed for a refund, but never returned it. I sent it to him 5 cents at time. The hate mail was so bad, ebay blocked him.
I have two addresses in Colorado, one in the county and the other 1.5 miles away in the city. Deliveries to my County house runs about 4.5% tax versus 8.675%. Coins and coin related bullion, medals, round coin like things is like 2.50% state wide. No tax on food, if its not prepared.
Been watching cnbc biz channel today, the Nebraska rule applies to seller with 100k a year in sales or 200 + annual transactions.
Of course each state, city, county, etc... will rush thru legislation to create and implement their own criteria/ rules, exclusions, if any are needed.
@bronco2078 said:
Its actually very complicated . Some states with sales tax exempt certain items or charge more on certain items. Who is going to care enough to keep track of that nonsense ?
In Mass you can buy frozen pizza in a store and there is no tax . If they heat up the pizza for you then you pay a meals tax. Books I think are taxed but magazines aren't ??
My relatives live in Colorado , the nearest town is winter park which has some sort of town sales tax, their house is in an unincorporated area so they don't owe the town tax if they buy things in the town. Its ridiculous
It's pretty easy for me today in NY - once a quarter I log into my NY State Taxation website. I put in 3 lines.
1) Non-Taxable Sales (To dealers with a Tax-ID, or to out of state (online) customers)
2) Taxable Sales in the county I do all my shows in (one tax rate)
3) Sales out of my home (online) to NY state residents without a Resale ID (Different tax rate than show county)
It automatically figures my bill, deducts from my business checking account.
Now... if I could still do all of this through NY State's Tax Website, where I have to put in every zip-code of all my online sales, and NY State disburses the tax to every municipality - I suppose that isn't too bad, I'll just change my ledger book from "XYZ - $123 - CA - Out of State - Non-Taxable" to something like "XYZ - $123 - CA 90210 $tax I collected" My records will be fine, but...
There isn't 50 tax rates, one of the articles mentioned between 7,500-12,000 DIFFERENT tax rates based on zipcode. Every sales post will have the description of $123 + $3.50 shipping + Shipping address tax rate"
There is going to have to be some sort of website setup for sellers to enter a zipcode, click a type of merchandise, and get the tax rate. Plus, most dealers also deal in related non-coin inventory that often is taxed at a different (if any) rate than coins/bullion like coin banks, coin supplies, auction catalogs, campaign pins/ribbons, etc etc etc.
If I have to crate a tax-submitter account on a website for every single state, or every single tax-collection entity, I'm out. God forbid I need paper forms from every different zip-code to submit taxes, write a check, etc. Some would require yearly submissions, quarterly, monthly, maybe even weekly or daily - screw that.
If they want to do this, I hope they setup some national tax submission site where sellers can have ONE account to enter the sales, do one deduction from our bank, and do all the various submissions to the tax entities, but.... that's likely wishful thinking.
And for all businesses with the extra costs involved, it is also just like a tax, except your lawyer or accountant will confiscate the money instead with their fees.
I'm sure we all love to give our lawyers and accountants more of our money because they currently don't make enough.
Amazon has to collect tax for every state because it has physical distribution centers in virtually every state.
Amazon has NOT been collecting sales tax when your purchase is shipped directly to you from one of their retail "partners" not located in your state, but that seems to have come to an end today. Mr Trump got his revenge on Bezos.
The Trump administration had nothing to do with this Supreme Court Decision. I don't understand your comment.
The decision only applies to S. Dakota and sales of more than $100,000 in annual sales or 200 transactions. This is a mess from what I can ascertain.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
I think there's quite a bit of over-reaction to this. If you check the ICTA website, you will find that over 30 states currently exempt coins and paper money from sales tax. For instance, in South Carolina where I'm located, there is no sales tax on coins and currency. So, folks like Heritage and Stacks won't have to deal with extracting another 6+% out of me and, therefore, it won't change my buying habits.
So, worst case, some Ebay sellers of coins and currency may decide to not sell to folks who reside in a state that taxes those items.
And for all businesses with the extra costs involved, it is also just like a tax, except your lawyer or accountant will confiscate the money instead with their fees.
I'm sure we all love to give our lawyers and accountants more of our money because they currently don't make enough.
You're making me feel sorry for all those congressmen, SanctionII, Longacre, Modcrewman, and the likes.
On ebay selling collectibles the profit margins are so thin already; if they do anything to hit the gross not the net profits or we are required to collect state taxes on customer sales, the already sluggish sales would turn into a dying snail!
I agree with Scotus Chief Roberts:
"The burden will fall disproportionately on small businesses," Roberts said. "The court's decision today will surely have the effect of dampening opportunities for commerce in a broad range of new markets." Giant corporations benefit with rulings like this; they can always go offshore and wait for a tax repatriation holiday.
So first, we will have to figure out which states/cities exempt/don't exempt coins/bullion from sales tax. Then we retail sellers/dealers will have to get state resale licenses for each state we do business in so we don't have to pay sales tax for items we buy for resale purposes.
Right now, my website automatically taxes sales in California since that's where my business is, so now I will have to pay someone to reconfigure my website to automatically figure out what the sales tax is for every state/city. In California, we already have to figure out the sales tax rate for every CITY since they are all different and this is already a daunting task. Now the idea of filing sales tax returns for all the other cities/states I do business in will be a nightmare, and will drive my accountant even more bananas! I see a lot of extra expense for the small retailer. Geese, what a mess.
Pay the sales tax to the required entity from paypal but pay it 5 cents at a time. With their 30 minimum transaction fee, it will be a GIANT BLACK HOLE of costs for the states.
Without going into the details, I had to refund about $15 to a person one time due to a part he damaged and then filed for a refund, but never returned it. I sent it to him 5 cents at time. The hate mail was so bad, ebay blocked him.
I like it. Sort of similar to the folks who would bring in a bunch of pennies to the courthouse to pay a fine in protest.
Pay the sales tax to the required entity from paypal but pay it 5 cents at a time. With their 30 minimum transaction fee, it will be a GIANT BLACK HOLE of costs for the states.
Without going into the details, I had to refund about $15 to a person one time due to a part he damaged and then filed for a refund, but never returned it. I sent it to him 5 cents at time. The hate mail was so bad, ebay blocked him.
I like it. Sort of similar to the folks who would bring in a bunch of pennies to the courthouse to pay a fine in protest.
The only problem is most states do not take paypal as a form of payment.
Thank god The Commonwealth has no tax on coins and bullion. If they force it online from this greedy arse federal govt i'll just go local again. No problem.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
This was tossed around a few years ago as far as eBay is concerned and it was said that eBay would develop a program and collect the tax from the buyers and sellers would not have to mess with it. It would be impossible for small sellers to keep track of all the different sales tax rates across the country.
If they don't do this their platform is doomed.
I use to set-up and sell at shows in OHIO for years,,,,, then OHIO passed a law where sales tax had to be collected on coins when it didn't have to be collected before. I registered with the state and got all the forms and started collecting tax,,,,,,, actually it was built into the selling price as nobody would pay it. Profit margins dropped,,,, As I kept doing shows I found out every county in OHIO had a different sales tax rate,,,,,,,,,, when I got to a show I didn't know what the correct tax rate was,,,,,,, had to ask other dealers to find out,,,,I tried to do it for awhile but became so frustrated that I quit doing shows in OHIO.
@coinpalice said:
between seller fees and state taxes, a lot of the smaller sellers on e bay will no longer sell
I disagree. Especially if eBay collects the sales tax, it actually levels the playing field for everyone since Stacks, Heritage, and GC will have to collect sales tax as well.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@derryb said:
Since they are dead set on collecting state sales taxes for online sales, the easiest way to do it would be to apply the state tax where the seller is located. That would enable sellers to have to deal with only one taxing authority. Treat the sale on different than if the purchase was made at a storefront by an out of state tourist.
Except the states are trying to make sure that consumers pay the local tax and can't go fishing for lower tax states to buy from. If they let the seller pay locally, the high tax states (NY, CA) would end up disadvantaging their businesses and lose revenue. They have to force you to pay the higher local sales tax which means making the collection at the locus of the buyer not the seller.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
@derryb said:
Since they are dead set on collecting state sales taxes for online sales, the easiest way to do it would be to apply the state tax where the seller is located. That would enable sellers to have to deal with only one taxing authority. Treat the sale on different than if the purchase was made at a storefront by an out of state tourist.
Except the states are trying to make sure that consumers pay the local tax and can't go fishing for lower tax states to buy from. If they let the seller pay locally, the high tax states (NY, CA) would end up disadvantaging their businesses and lose revenue. They have to force you to pay the higher local sales tax which means making the collection at the locus of the buyer not the seller.
Stuff like this makes me go out of my way to screw the tax man. Like I would grumble a little before but now its going to be a grudge match. You want every last cent brother ? Now you get none
Unlike toilet paper or BBQ grills or 16 year old pickups with the wheels about to fall off, rare coins, especially of a higher dollar value have maintained a significant investment component.
Taxing rare coin sales in a similar fashion to consumer goods has been recognized by many jurisdictions as an exception. Similarly a sales tax on say the purchase of 100 shares of Amazon stock would be met with a Wall Street revolt.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out, we are clearly in a new era of online commerce.
@GRANDAM said:
This was tossed around a few years ago as far as eBay is concerned and it was said that eBay would develop a program and collect the tax from the buyers and sellers would not have to mess with it. It would be impossible for small sellers to keep track of all the different sales tax rates across the country.
The problem is, eBay will probably not do it correctly. They'll tax things at a default rate that should be at a lower rate or tax exempt (such as the postage I bought today), they'll screw up tax holidays that are often in place in August for back-to-school stuff, they won't keep current with tax rate changes, and they'll screw up local taxes when a zip code is split up between 6 different villages in 3 different counties, with some of those villages also straddling county lines. Meanwhile, buyers will complain and it will be the seller's responsibility to get it straightened out, as only the seller risks negative feedback.
Realistically, I don't think most counties will go after their cut, and very few municipalities will -- probably just the biggest ones.
@CommemDude said:
I once thought coin shows were destined to become extinct but maybe this is the end of internet sales and a return to face to face transactions for coin sales?
These attempts to tax us to death always end up with the underground market expanding,,,,just look at the mess in Greece where medical and other services and goods are offered at a steep discount for cash payment.
The percentage of trading that is done underground will certainly increase. The total amount of trading will certainly decrease.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
BTW Massachusetts a few weeks ago tried to enact a 'law' whereby retailers, even small convenience stores, would have to pay the state sales tax they collect** ON A DAILY BASIS. **
It didn't get passed............this time
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
“The ruling only directly affected South Dakota, which had sought to collect taxes from online retailers with more than $100,000 in annual sales or 200 transactions in the state.
“States would be well advised not to try to go further than South Dakota did,” said former U.S. solicitor general Paul Clement. “If a state deviates from that model, they’ll be asking for trouble.”
Wondercoin
If one buys from a merchant in a state with no ST then wouldn't they still be required to pay the tax in their state?
If I drop it in a mail box that is located in a state that has no tax on coins, Do I have to pay a tax just because it's going to a unknown address?
I have not read the articles on the ruling yet, mainly because I expect that the actual application of the ruling will evolve. I do think, however, that there may be some confusion on how taxes work on out of state sales.
Unless new laws dramatically change how taxes work, the only thing that will likely change is how taxes are collected on mail order purchases from out of state sellers. In the expected scenario, sellers will have to collect sales tax based on the buyer's home state (and city, if applicable) sales tax, essentially treating the sale as if it had occurred in the buyer's state. For the buyer, it means no more tax-free purchases (unless they live in a state that has no sales tax). For sellers, it means tracking all applicable tax laws and rates, and forwarding taxes collected to the relevant tax authorities.
That's how I understand it, anyway. I can only hope that there are generous exclusions and thresholds, but that will be up to the states to decide.
Here is an unintended consequence that I expect to see happen: more face-to-face transactions for cash that will bypass the state tax. The buyer used to buy from out of state to avoid the tax, so they will find a wiling seller locally to do a sale for cash under the table,.
The real nightmare will be places like eBay. Will they collect the taxes for sellers who are not established businesses? How will they know if a buyer is exempt? etc. etc.
There must be an 'APP' for this
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
probably, that's what my post says.
here's a thought --- currently in Ohio there is no sales tax on coins, that short lived law repealed by the Legislature 1-2 years ago. does that mean I shouldn't have to pay any tax on coins I buy online?? my thinking is that a I shouldn't.
internet sales is a thing that is peculiar and messes with tax codes. the point of purchase and the point of sale are in two distinct locations despite what lawyers try to say. it's akin to the way income tax is collected --- we often work in a different taxing location than where we live, yet the "resident" location still gets its (un)fair share.
the morale of the story is that if a Government has knowledge of money changing hands in some way they will pass a law which assures that we have to give them some of it.
As a buyer, I am telling you that I take ALL costs of the coin into account when buying. So if I was bidding on one of your auctions, I would bid 6% less because of having to pay KY tax now. If I am like that, I know I am not alone. If someone like me wins your items only OCCASIONALLY then you would be losing more money because of this new rule. Still not making sense yet?
If ebay forces me to set aside 43 cents tax on a coin sale I will probably just keep it. Come and get me Arizona
Its actually very complicated . Some states with sales tax exempt certain items or charge more on certain items. Who is going to care enough to keep track of that nonsense ?
In Mass you can buy frozen pizza in a store and there is no tax . If they heat up the pizza for you then you pay a meals tax. Books I think are taxed but magazines aren't ??
My relatives live in Colorado , the nearest town is winter park which has some sort of town sales tax, their house is in an unincorporated area so they don't owe the town tax if they buy things in the town. Its ridiculous
When the Federal income tax was passed in 1913, it was 1% on certain incomes. One legislator who was against it said if we let the Federal government get its foot in this door, eventually this tax will become 5%. He was laughed at.
I predict states will go as far as they can in collecting every dime they can from this tax. Regardless of what Paul Clement said.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The IRS has nothing to do with this, as there is no national sales tax. If every state and local taxing authority tries to collect the tax from sellers, the only way sellers would be able to stay out of trouble is if the selling platforms automatically computed and remitted the tax on behalf of sellers. The additional cost of doing so would be passed on to the sellers, perhaps not as a specific line item on their invoices, but in the form of adjusted fee structures, reduced specials, and other fees. Given eBay's general level of competence, I imagine that sellers of coins will be spending a lot of time trying to get inappropriately collected taxes refunded that were collected for states with no sales tax.
On the bright side, South Dakota requires in-state sales of at least $100,000 before sales taxes are due, so perhaps other states have or will have such limits as well. I could see other states starting to collect taxes at dollar one, however. Yet another thing to keep track of.
I could also see a run on PO boxes and mailbox store boxes in southeastern Wisconsin (5.5% tax) for high-volume online shoppers wanting to avoid the 8-10% tax in Illinois.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Heritage, Stack's etc. already collect state tax where appropriate. Here in Georgia there is no sales tax on coin and bullion purchases/sales so they do not charge me when I buy. Your state may have a similar law. I bought a couple of coins last week at a local antique auction house and even though they charge sales tax on their sales they did not charge me on the coins.
I do pay sales tax on my in state (Georgia) non-coin eBay and Amazon sales. I file one sales tax return with a column/row for each county and taxing jurisdiction in the state and Georgia takes care of distributing the funds. Filing 50 state returns would put an end to my on-line sales, just wouldn't be worth the bookkeeping effort.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
If a break is to be given to small companies the larger companies will utilize them to beat the system, which will cause the states to go ahead and make everyone a tax collector. Can't believe it has taken this long when such a large amount of tax income is available for the states. It will definitely define how internet business is done in the very near future.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
My bad. It looks like major auction houses like Heritage only collect sales tax if shipping to a customer lives in a state where they have a physical presence (CA, TX, NY) or if picked up at a auction in a state that charges sales tax when the sale is being conducted in that state.
Everything else I said is true.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
It is simply another expense of doing business or pursuing daily interests. Heck of a lot better than a national VAT as proposed by Hoover's administration in 1931.
@tommy44 I knew you would discover this soon enough ... Tough to keep track of everything eh?
I have bought so much from Heritage over the years that I knew sales tax was not usually an issue since I live in Virginia and they don't conduct many numismatic auctions in the Commonwealth.
Kind regards,
George
For the fiftieth time, every state has its own rules with respect to sales and use tax of tangible personal property. Some states exempt some types of personal property from sales and use tax, period, others except some types of personal property from sales and use tax, if a particular sale is below a thresh hold amount.
Localities often add their own levies onto the state sales tax.
Each state has its own thresh hold regarding the amount of gross sales per annum, above which a vendor is required to have a state sales tax permit. Such thresh hold amount includes all sales made in the particular state, whether they be in person, mail order, or over the internet.
Sales taxes may be required to be remitted on a monthly, quarterly, or annual basis, depending on facts and circumstances.
Some states exempt sales of tangible personal property that are made by vendors who have a physical presence in a particular state under a specified number of days.
If you have any further questions about this, the onus is on you to contact applicable state sales taxing authorities in the state(s) where you do business. You will not be a happy camper if a particular state deems that you must have a sales tax permit and you don't have one.
If you are selling tangible personal property through an internet vendor, you will avoid a lot of headaches by being able to use its software with respect to calculation and payment of sales taxes. Said software may even inform you whether in fact you need to get a sales tax permit in a particular jurisdiction.
Please do not send me any PMs about this. I have discussed this matter on far too many occasions on this forum, and will not answer any further questions in this regard.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
My guess is that Ebay and Amazon will collect and remit the sales tax.
The "problem" is going to be with sellers who offer product on their websites, having to collect and remit the sales tax, especially with each state going to have their own set of rules.
Another early guess is that a number of states will band together and have sellers remit the sales tax to one address or online payment account. But I doubt if some of the bigger states such as California and New York will be so accomodating towards small sellers.
We shall see what happens.
One thing for sure, certain politicians, lawyers, accountants, and software firms are going to get filthy rich over this, while again, the small business owner suffers under the cost and time waste of burdonsome paperwork...and for what? So that big government will squander the money anyway, and then later on come back for more money to squander.
And don't forget the consumer having to pay more in taxes. Death by 1,000 cuts. Big government is eating the middle class alive as the appetite of malignantly growing big government is insatiable.
-
Big government utopia.
Future conversation heard among a group of new prison inmates:
So what are ya in for?
Me...bank robbery
Me...car hijacking
Me...cat burglary
Me...I forgot to remit sales tax to North Dakota
Here's the Marketwatch take on the story:
Etsy and eBay Sellers Hold Their Breath Over Supreme Court's Sales Tax Ruling
https://marketwatch.com/story/etsy-and-ebay-sellers-hold-their-breath-over-supreme-courts-sales-tax-ruling-2018-06-21
Kind regards,
George
Simple Solution:
Pay the sales tax to the required entity from paypal but pay it 5 cents at a time. With their 30 minimum transaction fee, it will be a GIANT BLACK HOLE of costs for the states.
Without going into the details, I had to refund about $15 to a person one time due to a part he damaged and then filed for a refund, but never returned it. I sent it to him 5 cents at time. The hate mail was so bad, ebay blocked him.
the days of buying pre-33 gold at near melt are pretty much over with the tax
I have two addresses in Colorado, one in the county and the other 1.5 miles away in the city. Deliveries to my County house runs about 4.5% tax versus 8.675%. Coins and coin related bullion, medals, round coin like things is like 2.50% state wide. No tax on food, if its not prepared.
Been watching cnbc biz channel today, the Nebraska rule applies to seller with 100k a year in sales or 200 + annual transactions.
Of course each state, city, county, etc... will rush thru legislation to create and implement their own criteria/ rules, exclusions, if any are needed.
Taxes ? What an innovative concept.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It's pretty easy for me today in NY - once a quarter I log into my NY State Taxation website. I put in 3 lines.
1) Non-Taxable Sales (To dealers with a Tax-ID, or to out of state (online) customers)
2) Taxable Sales in the county I do all my shows in (one tax rate)
3) Sales out of my home (online) to NY state residents without a Resale ID (Different tax rate than show county)
It automatically figures my bill, deducts from my business checking account.
Now... if I could still do all of this through NY State's Tax Website, where I have to put in every zip-code of all my online sales, and NY State disburses the tax to every municipality - I suppose that isn't too bad, I'll just change my ledger book from "XYZ - $123 - CA - Out of State - Non-Taxable" to something like "XYZ - $123 - CA 90210 $tax I collected" My records will be fine, but...
There isn't 50 tax rates, one of the articles mentioned between 7,500-12,000 DIFFERENT tax rates based on zipcode. Every sales post will have the description of $123 + $3.50 shipping + Shipping address tax rate"
There is going to have to be some sort of website setup for sellers to enter a zipcode, click a type of merchandise, and get the tax rate. Plus, most dealers also deal in related non-coin inventory that often is taxed at a different (if any) rate than coins/bullion like coin banks, coin supplies, auction catalogs, campaign pins/ribbons, etc etc etc.
If I have to crate a tax-submitter account on a website for every single state, or every single tax-collection entity, I'm out. God forbid I need paper forms from every different zip-code to submit taxes, write a check, etc. Some would require yearly submissions, quarterly, monthly, maybe even weekly or daily - screw that.
If they want to do this, I hope they setup some national tax submission site where sellers can have ONE account to enter the sales, do one deduction from our bank, and do all the various submissions to the tax entities, but.... that's likely wishful thinking.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
And for all businesses with the extra costs involved, it is also just like a tax, except your lawyer or accountant will confiscate the money instead with their fees.
I'm sure we all love to give our lawyers and accountants more of our money because they currently don't make enough.
The Trump administration had nothing to do with this Supreme Court Decision. I don't understand your comment.
The decision only applies to S. Dakota and sales of more than $100,000 in annual sales or 200 transactions. This is a mess from what I can ascertain.
bob
I think there's quite a bit of over-reaction to this. If you check the ICTA website, you will find that over 30 states currently exempt coins and paper money from sales tax. For instance, in South Carolina where I'm located, there is no sales tax on coins and currency. So, folks like Heritage and Stacks won't have to deal with extracting another 6+% out of me and, therefore, it won't change my buying habits.
So, worst case, some Ebay sellers of coins and currency may decide to not sell to folks who reside in a state that taxes those items.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
You're making me feel sorry for all those congressmen, SanctionII, Longacre, Modcrewman, and the likes.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
In Wisconsin you do not have to collect sales tax.. you can include it in the price.. but you still have to pay it to the state
Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
My county 4.5% tax address for deliveries shares the same zip code as the city that charges 8.675% per delivery. Same zip, two different tax rates.
On ebay selling collectibles the profit margins are so thin already; if they do anything to hit the gross not the net profits or we are required to collect state taxes on customer sales, the already sluggish sales would turn into a dying snail!
I agree with Scotus Chief Roberts:
"The burden will fall disproportionately on small businesses," Roberts said. "The court's decision today will surely have the effect of dampening opportunities for commerce in a broad range of new markets." Giant corporations benefit with rulings like this; they can always go offshore and wait for a tax repatriation holiday.
states like Texas will make over 1.2 billion of new online taxes after one year
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/states-set-to-gain-billions-in-sales-taxes-after-court-ruling/ar-AAyYyus?li=BBnbfcN
So first, we will have to figure out which states/cities exempt/don't exempt coins/bullion from sales tax. Then we retail sellers/dealers will have to get state resale licenses for each state we do business in so we don't have to pay sales tax for items we buy for resale purposes.
Right now, my website automatically taxes sales in California since that's where my business is, so now I will have to pay someone to reconfigure my website to automatically figure out what the sales tax is for every state/city. In California, we already have to figure out the sales tax rate for every CITY since they are all different and this is already a daunting task. Now the idea of filing sales tax returns for all the other cities/states I do business in will be a nightmare, and will drive my accountant even more bananas! I see a lot of extra expense for the small retailer. Geese, what a mess.
The Penny Lady®
The tax I pay on out-of -state purchases is the rate my state collects. No local tax increments or surcharges are applied.
Could that change? Possibly but this ruling applies to states collecting sales tax for their state. Not municipalities applying minute additions.
I like it. Sort of similar to the folks who would bring in a bunch of pennies to the courthouse to pay a fine in protest.
The only problem is most states do not take paypal as a form of payment.
Thank god The Commonwealth has no tax on coins and bullion. If they force it online from this greedy arse federal govt i'll just go local again. No problem.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
This was tossed around a few years ago as far as eBay is concerned and it was said that eBay would develop a program and collect the tax from the buyers and sellers would not have to mess with it. It would be impossible for small sellers to keep track of all the different sales tax rates across the country.
If they don't do this their platform is doomed.
I use to set-up and sell at shows in OHIO for years,,,,, then OHIO passed a law where sales tax had to be collected on coins when it didn't have to be collected before. I registered with the state and got all the forms and started collecting tax,,,,,,, actually it was built into the selling price as nobody would pay it. Profit margins dropped,,,, As I kept doing shows I found out every county in OHIO had a different sales tax rate,,,,,,,,,, when I got to a show I didn't know what the correct tax rate was,,,,,,, had to ask other dealers to find out,,,,I tried to do it for awhile but became so frustrated that I quit doing shows in OHIO.
I disagree. Especially if eBay collects the sales tax, it actually levels the playing field for everyone since Stacks, Heritage, and GC will have to collect sales tax as well.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Except the states are trying to make sure that consumers pay the local tax and can't go fishing for lower tax states to buy from. If they let the seller pay locally, the high tax states (NY, CA) would end up disadvantaging their businesses and lose revenue. They have to force you to pay the higher local sales tax which means making the collection at the locus of the buyer not the seller.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Stuff like this makes me go out of my way to screw the tax man. Like I would grumble a little before but now its going to be a grudge match. You want every last cent brother ? Now you get none
Unlike toilet paper or BBQ grills or 16 year old pickups with the wheels about to fall off, rare coins, especially of a higher dollar value have maintained a significant investment component.
Taxing rare coin sales in a similar fashion to consumer goods has been recognized by many jurisdictions as an exception. Similarly a sales tax on say the purchase of 100 shares of Amazon stock would be met with a Wall Street revolt.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out, we are clearly in a new era of online commerce.
Seems though that Bezos always wins.
The problem is, eBay will probably not do it correctly. They'll tax things at a default rate that should be at a lower rate or tax exempt (such as the postage I bought today), they'll screw up tax holidays that are often in place in August for back-to-school stuff, they won't keep current with tax rate changes, and they'll screw up local taxes when a zip code is split up between 6 different villages in 3 different counties, with some of those villages also straddling county lines. Meanwhile, buyers will complain and it will be the seller's responsibility to get it straightened out, as only the seller risks negative feedback.
Realistically, I don't think most counties will go after their cut, and very few municipalities will -- probably just the biggest ones.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The percentage of trading that is done underground will certainly increase. The total amount of trading will certainly decrease.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There is also a distinction that could be made between new and used goods.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.