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Two Toned Morgan Dollars- NT or AT, and How? Thanks.
PocketArt
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I bought these two Morgan's over the past year. I thought the toning was natural, yet, I haven't come across too many toned Morgan's that were raw with toning, so, thought I'd ask for opinions with these examples. They are more appealing in hand- it's hard to photograph the colors; but, they are similar in stage; if natural. Subdued grey, with vibrant greens, and reds.
I thought perhaps envelop toning? Toned like this in bag? Album? Maybe artificial?
Many experts on this forum, so, just curious at your observations. If natural, how occurred, and if artificial, method employed.
Thank you!
2
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Might be tissue toned. I don’t like the cleared areas. Might be both.
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Looks NT to me, could have been in an envelope or paper flips. Fairly common colors here.
10-4,
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IMO, both "market acceptable" and attractive so who cares how? Well, I do...LOL.
A/T I see it when one try's to, I say force toning on a coin and the coin reacts in this way some get by some don't, But that is just me Dumb Type2 testing on unwanted patience to see what happens with Silver..
Hoard the keys.
...I like it...and I don't talk much...but the color is so close to what I had that I'm going to spill a little blood here...I had a 63 with that same color...CAC didn't like it...I was way higher than I should have been one average night inside the smoked out mancave, and I cracked and dipped her white...the coin sat for a couple months and then I tossed it into a ready-to-ship submission and she came back a 65...CAC still thought the coin was a turd locked in plastic...which it was
so,
CAC didn't make 1 dime but we both witnessed how much the USPS did from the 2 trips
PCGS got paid twice...and rightfully so
...and I wish I had my common-date, green, stickerless 63 back!
That was fun...Nice Morgan
I like them, but stop the toning, any more would be too much imo.
No matter.. they both look nice!
83 looks somewhat natural, 87 artificial and old cleaning. I'd dip them both.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Retiring at 55, what day is today?
I would not buy either coin... worn and damaged... The tarnish is nasty.... Cheers, RickO
meh...
I think the colors look ok to me.
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NT no problems
They are fine. The 1887 is butt ugly with the print however.
Classic Thumb Print Toning...
CC
I agree with the OP's assessment. The coins appear envelope toned to me and as such market acceptable/slabable (is that a word?). Have fun...Mike
I have the same dates with the same color. They came in a souvenir set (1883 O - 1885 O) it was lined on both sides with velvet. Im guessing your coins took a similar route.
Velvet in an atmosphere of gas heating (old coin dealer showed me his "secret") produces all types of color. His shop turned coins blue with gold accents.
@david3142 ...Do you care to share the reasons for your 'disagree'? Or you just do not like me or my opinion? Cheers, RickO
Both are natural 2x2 paper envelope toning. Seen lots of these. The 87 has unfortunately been finger handled (mishandled) by someone with greasy hands causing the prints obverse and the toning removal in the fields on the reverse.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Not personal, I just disagree with your opinion. It’s much easier than writing an explanation as such and gets the same points across. No one ever clamors for why I may have agreed with an opinion.
To be clear, I would not call the coins “damaged” or “worn” (i.e. I would expect both to straight grade MS). The toning isn’t pretty to me either but that’s mostly just the fingerprint on the second. Otherwise, they seem to be naturally envelope toned as others have mentioned.
Great response! Now, that added to the understanding of the thread and I'm glad you took the time to reply. Now it is @Ricko's turn.
As for me, the amount of rub allowed on a coin has become a personal thing for all of us. Once a coin acquires this dark color it is difficult to tell the amount of luster loss (if any) on the high points from an image. In hand, with magnification we could tell if Ricko is being too critical. However, if there is any rub at all, than his opinion is OK based on his standards for MS! We cannot disagree with a personal standard. What we can do is say they are either too critical or they are ignorant. As I posted, IMO, these coins would get MS-something and straight graded even if what I see is friction on the high points.
As to damage, some folks consider any oxidation to be Damage and no one can argue that fact when the toning is terminal. Perhaps Ricko is in that group.
While his post is a little harsh compared to most posting here, I couldn't find anything to disagree with while I was giving that some consideration!
@david3142 ...Thank you for your response. In the pictures, I see what - to me - looks like wear on the Eagles breast of both coins and the hair of the second coin. The scratch on the cheek of the first one is also damage... Based on those points, I consider them worn and damaged... and, to me, the tarnish is blotchy and ugly. Cheers, RickO
@Insider2, @ricko
It is often next to impossible to tell wear from strike/toning on coins that look like this from an image. I can certainly see where you are coming from.
+1 for civil discourse!
@ricko said: "In the pictures, I see what - to me - looks like wear on the Eagles breast of both coins and the hair of the second coin. The scratch on the cheek of the first one is also damage... Based on those points, I consider them worn and damaged... and, to me, the tarnish is blotchy and ugly."
Remember just IMO:
That deep hit can be considered as "damage." So can all the little hits. AFAI can tell, a major hit as this can still be in the center of the cheek on an MS-63 and definitely on the lower MS grades. Therefore, even a mark like this is not considered to cross the line as "damage." Professional graders know "real" damage when they see it. Nevertheless, they will ignore it in many instances.
As for friction wear, the top coin definitely has what many call "Cabinet Friction." It is very obvious due to the contrast of color. It is also on the eagle's breast. I think most would overlook this and say the coin is not worn although its original mint luster has been disturbed under the toning..
In a way, all this back-and-forth is just "theory" as we each have different standards that may not match those of the coin market or a major TPGS.
Thank's all for contributing to the discussion of the two Morgan dollars. I find Morgan's at times very difficult to grade because a weak strike can easily be interpreted as wear, especially when toning is present.
I've attached a few more photo's, and a comparison of an uncirculated 1883-O. Please note, the strikes on these dollars can be weak on the central points per Q. David Bowers. Also, I've attached a few more pics of the 1887. Photo's were taken outside in natural light. Yes, the palm print sucks on the 1887, but at least it follows the features of the device!
I'd rather have it not there...I'm going to give these an acetone bath, and probably get them slabbed at some point.
The following below is from A Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars
Topic: 1883-O
Surface Quality: _Striking varies all over the place for the 1883-O, with some quite flat at the centers, and others needle sharp, the latter being in the distinct minority. Careful selection is advised. The 1883-O is common in Mint State, and thus there are many opportunities to view candidates for your collection. The luster ranges from medium frosty to somewhat dull and grainy. Some were made from worn-out dies past retirement age, and these have granularity and metal flow lines. Cherrypicking is again advised, this in combination with seeking sharp strike. _
pg. 150 2nd paragraph. Bowers, Q, David. (2007). The Offical Red Book, A Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars. Atlanta, GA: Whitman Publishing, LLC
The 1887
Here’s one thing @ricko and I can agree on - it would be a huge waste of money to get these slabbed. They are worth about $40 now and that’s what they’ll be worth in the holders.
Right, ANACS $7 promo. is what I had in mind. Thanks for your insight.
In that case, I retract the huge part.
Well aren't you kind. Civil, and considerate!
I have seen similar colors from storage in Tidy House promotional pieces like this one
https://ebay.com/itm/Tidy-House-1881-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Uncirculated-Multi-Color-Toned-Coin/273223462283?hash=item3f9d632d8b:g:9sEAAOSwP8BZqHjE:sc:USPSFirstClass!98232!US!-1
That's very close, if not. Awesome!
They came in yellow envelope and flyer for more wrapped around them. The Tidy House owner was a collector and 'sold' Morgans and 1964 Kennedy halves with a political message as well. They have resulted on mostly choice and gems now from the originals ... some people have switched out coins, so don't blindly buy them.
