Lazered coins
Coin Finder
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Anyone have any photos of coins that have been lazered to get a better grade?
Thanks!
PS, yeah, I heard its a thing...
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Coin Finder
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I would also be interested in seeing this.
Collector, occasional seller
I've heard of lasering a coin for a strike designation (e.g. FB or FS), but have never seen or heard of it being used to improve the grade.
It's a carefully kept secret, why would the services want to have the public aware of coins that made it through with straight grades that were carefully done? The coin docs. keep their secrets close to their chests also.
I do - lots. Unfortunately, they do not produce well. Most I've seen on Proof gold. The best way I can describe it is at the site of the alteration the microscopic surface changes - occasionally with a very tiny amount of sinking. Once you know what to look for, you have a 90% of seeing it with your naked eyes!
What I imagine happens is the normal (usually orange peel) surface melts so that it looks abnormal. I have images archived on one of my many cards. If I don't see another altered Proof in a week or two I'll search for an image.
Wouldn't this simply be a modern take on classic "tooling" (that I hope the grading companies can detect)?
NO. And if you want to make a stretch, YES. Big difference though. Any fool can pick up a nail and smooth a coin. The modern method takes special equipment that most don't have.
If I'm not mistaken - and @insider2 will let me know - laser ablation is how the conservation services remove spots from coins.
One must exercise caution with lasers.
iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/508/1/012032/pdf
maajournal.com/Issues/2016/Vol16-1/Full10.pdf
Does lasering a coin change its color spectrum in the area disturbed? If so, could not this be detected with spectrum analyzers? Have no idea, just a thought.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Anything you do to the original surface of a coin changes the way it reflects light!
Do you have any experience with this equipment? What is it? What does it do? Where did you hear about a spectrum analyzer? Thanks.
Don't know much about them, but we had them in our shops in the late 60's and early 70's. They were basically used as oscilloscopes, but the equipment we worked on(classified) used them to identify known and unknown signals. To be honest, I was an EW repairman and spent my 3 years removing and repairing the equipment from F4's and very little time in the shop. The equipment has far exceeded anything in my knowledge base, but I knew then that everything we did was based on frequencies and pulse rates to detect unknown signals. Don't want to get into talking above my knowledge level, just enough to get me in trouble. This was 50 years ago for me, so don't hold me to a perfect memory. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Laser treatment has been discussed here a few years ago.... As I recall, it was determined then that it could be detected, mostly due to the pulse nature of lasers....@Insider2... I would guess that effect is what you have seen... Cheers, RickO
It's been going on with Diamonds for quite awhile. They have detectors for the fill used where a flaw is removed.
Interesting? Any links?
I would think that this would be similar to burnishing to smooth out a scratch on a coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I remember a dealer at the Westchester show describing this procedure to me in 1987 (!) as he had become expert at removing hits and flaws on proof gold and sliver. I wonder how many surprises lurk in slabs out there that have not yet been detected ?
Commems and Early Type
Burnishing is VERY easily detected.
not saying it hasent been done already either. just saying is all
"if it takes special equipment that most don't have"...who would then be the likely culprit?
Dig through here if you want! https://google.com/search?q=laser+diamond+detector&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ7ofMxbDbAhVEy1MKHf8NABwQsxgIJg> @Insider2 said:
I have always theorized that looking at coins removes some of the surface.
Since photons leave the coin to reach your eyes, it only stands to reason that CAC should be able to discern photon loss over time.
Right?
Back to butt lasering I guess.
Only if photons of certain frequencies were emitted by a coin, and not simply reflected. That new French commemorative for Marie Curie minted using 10% radium, might be a good test piece.
I have a laser welder. I can't see any way it could be used to repair/alter a coin without it being pretty obvious.
Laser drilling a diamond is totally different process than laser welding metal. On diamonds, a laser is used to drill into a dark imperfection inside the diamond, then an acid is injected to hopefully lighten the area. There is no test for this, you can easily see the laser "hole" with 10X magnification. Diamonds can also be "fracture filled", which is a process that injects a clear filling material to hide inclusions. The well known companies that do this put n additive in that will show a purple flash when viewed at certain angle. This is to alleviate any method of deceit.
Jewelers have the type of equipment needed to repair coins. I arranged a trip to one of the guys to give a demonstration for myself and someone at another TPGS but he died. The jeweler that is.
LOL! Just saying they have been using lasers to repair diamonds and there is a detector for the fill! Didn't say or imply the same process was used on coins!
Natural causes or was he visited by an irate collector?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Interesting topic, thanks !!!!
It's not "Lazer". It's LASER which is capitalized since it's an acronym for "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have experience with lasers used to change metal structures. (Yes, the correct term is lower case now, as the word has become the item, not the process). They were used on gold, copper and aluminum structures on semiconductors. With complete deference to Insider2's knowledge and comments, the structures we were manipulating were smaller than 1/1000th of a millimeter, and you would not be able to "see" them without a specialized view (microscope) that typically would not be found outside of a specialized industrial facility or laboratory. Definitely WAY beyond the capability of the human eye or 50x microscope.
For those who are bored enough to still be reading, a portion of the electronic "chip" has electrical arrays that will always have bad areas, due to the creation process. There are 1000's of these sectors in an area about * size. They are laid out in a grid fashion. They are mapped as to good and bad, and then "fuses" are blown or bridged (opened or closed) to map out the bad sectors, or even take out "good" ones that are surrounded by too many bad ones, as the chip is less efficient having a signal traveling at the speed of light having to travel extra small pieces of a millimeter.
The laser operates in a size region that, if you compared it to a coin's surface, would be like using a nail file to smooth out all the "bumps" in a full automobile parking lot. If the laser can be calibrated to operate small, it is easy to up scale it, without losing quality, when time is not a factor.
I was just stating that laser drilling a diamond, and clarity enhancing/filling are 2 different things. In 35+ years I've never seen a laser drill hole filled. I also have never heard of any detector for testing filled diamonds. I could be wrong, just ask my wife
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I agree with @Insider2. Any manipulation of the surface to remove a spot or other blemish would affect the way the coin reacts to light.
Great info! Here is the thing...
The "look" of the coin's original surface is going to be changed at some level of measurement. So far, in my limited experience of viewing lasered gold, it does not seem that the "doctors" are doing the alteration of the coin using a microscope. If I'm using one (7X-120X) I'm going to see their work.
Much of my conservation work is done using a stereo microscope. That's why a numismatist won't see my work.
My laser welder uses a 14X Leica scope
Huh. And here I thought Laser technology has been highly regulated in the US since Reagan's infamous 1985 Star Wars "popcorn" incident..
As an interesting experiment, show us what you can do! Put a deep scratch into a Lincoln cent and "fix it" as best you can. Don't use a zinc cent.
Lasering is the only thing @Insider2 has "not" assigned to the coins I send him, at least not yet!!
That is great. The work I am talking about is at the 3,000 x gross to 15,000X moderate to 25,000x for detailed work. For those who want to go nuts, a TEM will resolve down to about 10,000,000 or basically, you can resolve at the atomic level.
Optical magnification basically cannot go beyond 2000x due to trying to resolve at the visible light wavelength limitations.
The "repairs" to semiconductors are on features that are smaller than visible light wavelength, meaning, no matter what the best in the world optical microscope you use, since it is smaller than the finest visible light wavelength, you will never "see" it, no matter what the magnification.
Just hope the counterfeiters do not ever link up with semiconductor or similar "size feature" industry that has equipment that has become obsolete after 4 years of use, and need work.
The new vogue among coin restoration will be coin surgery. If done correctly it is nearly undetectable. I know there is two schools of thought here on the board, some in strong favor of alterations on coins as long as it is not noticed, and those who believe it is wrong to doctor.
If its undetectable and we cannot tell, then does it matter?
Here is an experiment with a 1979 copper penny. I scratched it in such a way as to not remove any metal. Filling the scratch is easy, making it not obvious would take some talent. Copper and silver are 2 of the most difficult to weld because they require a good deal of power to weld. I'm a novice to the numismatic world, but I'm sure there are those with tricks to hide bad surfaces on coins.
I'm sure if I took the time to sit down and try various power and beam settings, I could do a better "repair". I still think making it unnoticeable would take some talent I don't have.
Of course, it matters. The "keyword" in your post is WE. There are thousands of "WE's" out here and each has a different skill level. I don't wish to buy a coin and find out later it was repaired and it matters to the next collector who can tell.
Now the dispute comes with the word "originality" and how each of the "we's" regards it. Some folks believe that any bright, white, lustrous Morgan dollar has been dipped and is not original. So each "we" has a personal choice to make. That belief goes too far for me.
You have done an excellent job for a confessed beginner! Thankfully, you did not sit down and practice with settings. I can see that a skilfull "doctor" can fix a scratch and then do a few more things to hide their work. Thank you so much for doing that experiment. You should be proud of yourself for what you have shown us is possible. This would make an excellent new discussion after you get a little practice and post the images in color. I hope your experiment gets posted in the "Best Posts" section so folks will start looking at their copper coins closer. The best folks to detect "doctoring" are the "doctors" themselves.
Additionally, it would be a very good idea for someone with some spare change to offer a contest. Entry fee: $50 to cover postage and the sample. The contest organizer would send a bright red, copper "plug" to each contestant with virtually identical marks - one a scratch and one a deep bagmark. The contestant would have one month to return the piece all repaired and in the typical "brown" color of a circulated coin! Prize to winner $500. Refund of fee for Honorable Mention. Prize to numismatics after the results are shown and discussed: PRICELESS!