The importance of color for detecting repairs.
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
One look at this coin without any magnification should be all that is necessary to suspect something is "wrong." The relief design has two different colors. This Trade dollar has two repaired chops (lighter areas). The repaired design detail is not well done very well. I have left the color of my image using florescent light "off" as it shows the difference in color better.
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This is a great post and image. Very interesting.....thanks for posting.
siliconvalleycoins.com
When it's worth melt.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
@Insider2 As always, your posts are educational. Until I started reading some of your posts and others here I would not have thought that color variations were repairs. I would have avoided this coin anyways only because the spots would bother me, but I would not have know why the spots were there. I would have thought it was just oxidation in that area or some contaminate got on the coin at some point in it's life.
I've learned much from you, sir.
Thanks, Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
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LOL, You must be a coin dealer. Repaired Trade dollar comes into the shop and you offer melt as "that's all it is worth"
I need a few of these for class...Paying melt. Can you help? The ANA School of Numismatics would probably appreciate your donation of one also.
Thanks!
Thanks, !'m just a little fish around here who also learns a lot.
Even if the coin was altered to "mask" the color difference, knowing what the feather design looks like on all five reverse hubs (only three (?) recognized at the moment) would enable you to notice something was not "right" - even through toning.
PS Color on the high points of a coin is extremely important for strict grading.
I don't get Trade Dollars coming in to my shop. I get mint and proof sets from the '60s-'90s. LOL
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Great information! It might be added that not only color but texture is different. (The color of lighting can make a big difference in identifying foreign substances on a coin. Many "putty" substances fluoresce under long wave UV. Short wave UV is even better but MUST be used with correct eye protection.)
I joke so I don't show my anger for how many of our treasures got trashed I2
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
You sir, are one true numismatist who had earned the respect of many forum members. You may be harsh sometime. But personally, I rather hear the hurtful truths than comforting lies.
Some good points in this thread.
@TurboSnail said: "Insider2, you may be harsh sometime..."
Trust me when I tell you I have a muzzle on.
@afford said: "Excellent thread, we need more of these."
I shall oblige as time permits. I have thousands of images. Genuine diagnostics, counterfeit diagnostics, characteristics of the P,D,S system, and pictures of my dog. What do you think would be the most interesting?
Excellent info, thanks. I really like this place.
The color cue is an excellent way to dig out surface manipulation. I also look at the coin from non-traditional angles or orientations (90-or 180-degrees to the traditional vertical) since this can help one identify a difference in not only color, but texture of the surfaces, as well.
Excellent thread!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
RE: " I have thousands of images. Genuine diagnostics, counterfeit diagnostics, characteristics of the P,D,S system, and pictures of my dog. What do you think would be the most interesting?"
Hmmmm....difficult choices. Dogs are always nice --- any shots of your gums from the dentist? But maybe we should stick to coin stuff such as illustrating some commonly encountered, older counterfeit diagnostics -- the kind of things people might find on ebay or at local flea markets.
Most are in books but I'll start with them. First, I'm going to dig out my dogs dental x-rays.
Oh, good! Canine dental X-rays! How about stool sample results, too?
Oh -- and don't forget that adorable photo of the dog getting its temperature taken....
+1
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
@Insider2 ....Great post. I enjoy your inputs and learn from them. I am sure the details on the feathers (in the OP example) are also revealing... Cheers, RickO
Going the next step, the following are images of the damaged example, the repaired example (can also note the color differences) and then a struck fake example of 1796 S-85.
You guys do great work. Edit the date.
Great stuff, I2. These are among my favourite threads.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Sum ting wong....
Sure is, you've forgotten where to get a coin conserved for free.
Last time I asked ICG to do it they left it alone; but I do appreciate to quick, economical and efficient service!
This Trade $1 that was in an NGC AU details holder, I sent to ICG thinking they would probably call it an AU55/58 details cleaned. However they said if they cracked it, it would be an AU50 "tooled":
You have that special instinct equipped with your knowledge
Did you ever been fooled once by A coin?
@Insider2
Very good illustration to go with your description - thanks. You and RogerB are both excellent and informative contributors. As to dogs, I've got some in my collection, too.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Great thread
Someone certainly ruined the holed 1796, unless they have an amazing toning ability. I have heard it can be done.
Also, I have seen many silver coins after repair that are an ugly gray that is no where near original or natural.
Unfortunately their goal was to repair it enough to use to make dies to "coin" counterfeit examples...
Yes, yes, yes, but very infrequently.
No one is perfect. Best of all, we have all of you checking out our opinions. I wish I could give details so I'll just say this:
Not very often - so, enough to get "cocky." A few are due to inattention. Very embarrassing. Once at NGC a grader showed me a large copper pattern he suspected was a fake. At the time I was busy conserving a coin. I looked at the coin and said it was genuine. A few minutes later another grader came in with the coin and asked if I was sure. I went into my "office" (a large closet size room in the conservation lab...LOL.) and put the piece under my scope and I immediately saw it was not even a deceptive fake! Very bad for one's self esteem and the opinion of coworkers.
Lucky for me and fellow authenticators, any mistake we make usually does not get out the door. I caught two CWT's earlier today (that were missed at first) due to the fact that I use a stereo microscope to examine coins. However, I know of at least three copper coins I've missed in the last nine years at ICG. These were also missed by the folks at other TPGS's. IMO, my fellow authenticators have a right to be a little "cocky" as they do a great job considering what we are up against these days.
@burfle23 (posting above) has a team of numismatists who IMO are tops in the country on detecting state-of-the-art copper counterfeits. We are lucky to have him posting here.