eBay's Tax Petition - Coin related (obviously)

ms70 · May 7, 2018 1:06PM

Since eBay is such a large source of coins for us collectors, and a platform for sellers on these forums, I figured I'd post this here in case some didn't get the e-mail from eBay. It's regarding internet taxes.

https://www.ebaymainstreet.com/petition/internet-sales-tax-buyers?utm_campaign=2018-US-IST-Petition&utm_source=marketing-email-buyer&utm_medium=email

Please sign our petition and join the fight to protect entrepreneurs, artisans and small businesses from potentially devastating Internet sales tax legislation.

Dear President Trump, United States Congress and State Governors,

We, the undersigned, call on the federal and state governments to take the following positions on new Internet taxes and support the millions of small businesses and consumers across the country:

-Keep the Internet as free from government taxation and regulation as possible.
-Protect entrepreneurs, small businesses and artisans from new taxes, audits or collection burdens because they can least afford the added costs.
-Continue to prohibit states and localities from applying and enforcing sales and use tax laws on small, remote local businesses who have no political or voting connection to the taxing state.
-Reject tax policies that raise prices on consumers who shop online with small businesses for artisan, craft, religious, vintage or other niche products because they should not be paying more taxes.

Sincerely,

[Your Signature]

thebeav · May 7, 2018 2:40PM

I signed it earlier today.
Heck, I collect and remit enough in sales taxes here in tax happy New York.

blitzdude · May 7, 2018 2:56PM

No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

Outhaul · May 7, 2018 3:11PM

I wish our politicians were as clever at saving money as they are in creating new tax sources.

Outhaul · May 7, 2018 3:11PM

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

Which Commonwealth? Certainly not Taxachusetts.

privatecoin · May 7, 2018 7:36PM

I too signed today.

derryb · May 7, 2018 8:09PM

Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

jwitten · May 7, 2018 8:14PM

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

It's a new internet tax they are trying to ADD. Basically, if you sell to someone in your state, you are supposed to collect sales tax. If it is out of state, you don't. They are trying to make you collect sales tax to every state, which would decrease the amount of money you get to keep on your sale. You would still pay your normal taxes on your income as well.

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

It is mainly for sellers, not buyers. If you sell something to someone in another state, they would take some of your money from you.

stevek · May 7, 2018 8:48PM

I've read all about this. It's clearly unconstitutional, everybody knows it, but who knows what might happen in this day and age.

The bottom line is that if they enact this tax, it won't end here, right around the corner big government will be taxing something else to frivolously spend more money, mostly on themselves, to make themselves grow ever larger.

BAJJERFAN · May 7, 2018 8:53PM

@jwitten said:

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

It's a new internet tax they are trying to ADD. Basically, if you sell to someone in your state, you are supposed to collect sales tax. If it is out of state, you don't. They are trying to make you collect sales tax to every state, which would decrease the amount of money you get to keep on your sale. You would still pay your normal taxes on your income as well.

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

It is mainly for sellers, not buyers. If you sell something to someone in another state, they would take some of your money from you.

But it's the buyers who would have to pay it. Collecting it would be a PITA for many sellers. The other day I paid sales tax for an eBay item for the first time forever. Turns out it came from Amazon who likely collected the tax and passed it on. There should be a way to cancel an eBay BIN if sales tax is not disclosed in the listing.

FWIW Iowa has had a mail order tax on the books since the 1930s, but I doubt many people write them a check for sales tax for mail or internet purchases.

BAJJERFAN · May 7, 2018 8:59PM

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

Would you like to incur the hassle of collecting $6 for Iowa on a $100 eBay sale to someone in Iowa? Plus the expense of keeping track of sales tax collected for every state and incur the hassle of spending 50 cents to mail them the $6? Not I said the Little Red Hen.

derryb · May 7, 2018 9:02PM

So, they want to make ebay sellers collect state sales tax on behalf of their buyers? Don't all retail stores already do this and why should an on-line seller be exempt?

jwitten · May 7, 2018 9:13PM

@derryb said:
So, they want to make ebay sellers collect state sales tax on behalf of their buyers? Don't all retail stores already do this and why should an on-line seller be exempt?

Ebay sellers, and ALL sellers have to do it for instate purchases, or if the company has presence in that state. Current laws do not require me collecting sales tax for a sale made out of state.

@BAJJERFAN said:

@jwitten said:

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

It's a new internet tax they are trying to ADD. Basically, if you sell to someone in your state, you are supposed to collect sales tax. If it is out of state, you don't. They are trying to make you collect sales tax to every state, which would decrease the amount of money you get to keep on your sale. You would still pay your normal taxes on your income as well.

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

It is mainly for sellers, not buyers. If you sell something to someone in another state, they would take some of your money from you.

But it's the buyers who would have to pay it.

I disagree. It's the same argument as who pays buyer premium on auctions. As a buyer, I take into account all expenses (taxes, shipping, fees, etc) when buying a coin. If my max is $100, I don't care if the coin is $100 with no fees, or the coin is $50 with $50 in taxes, fees, shipping, etc. But the seller sure does care. He wants as much as that $100 as possible. This just gives some more of that $100 total to someone else now.

Paradisefound · May 7, 2018 9:18PM

Will they do the same to Amazon next @ms70? I just signed it too.

BAJJERFAN · May 7, 2018 9:20PM

@jwitten said:

@derryb said:
So, they want to make ebay sellers collect state sales tax on behalf of their buyers? Don't all retail stores already do this and why should an on-line seller be exempt?

Ebay sellers, and ALL sellers have to do it for instate purchases, or if the company has presence in that state. Current laws do not require me collecting sales tax for a sale made out of state.

@BAJJERFAN said:

@jwitten said:

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

It's a new internet tax they are trying to ADD. Basically, if you sell to someone in your state, you are supposed to collect sales tax. If it is out of state, you don't. They are trying to make you collect sales tax to every state, which would decrease the amount of money you get to keep on your sale. You would still pay your normal taxes on your income as well.

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

It is mainly for sellers, not buyers. If you sell something to someone in another state, they would take some of your money from you.

But it's the buyers who would have to pay it.

I disagree. It's the same argument as who pays buyer premium on auctions. As a buyer, I take into account all expenses (taxes, shipping, fees, etc) when buying a coin. If my max is $100, I don't care if the coin is $100 with no fees, or the coin is $50 with $50 in taxes, fees, shipping, etc. But the seller sure does care. He wants as much as that $100 as possible. This just gives some more of that $100 total to someone else now.

Apparently the new scheme is for sellers to collect taxes for all states that impose a sales tax. For fixed price sales and BINs on eBay the buyer pays the sales tax and it's added to the BIN. For auction type sales you're right about factoring it into your bid.

derryb · May 7, 2018 9:37PM

@jwitten said:

@derryb said:
So, they want to make ebay sellers collect state sales tax on behalf of their buyers? Don't all retail stores already do this and why should an on-line seller be exempt?

Ebay sellers, and ALL sellers have to do it for instate purchases, or if the company has presence in that state. Current laws do not require me collecting sales tax for a sale made out of state.

One exception, Minnesota has declared domain over your on line sales to it's residents even though you do not sell from there. I often wonder if they would actually attempt to extradite an out of state violator of this tax law. I don't see where any state has jurisdiction over someone who does not reside in nor even enters the state.

Technically, a buyer who makes an out of state online purchase is currently required to report the purchase and pay sales tax on it to his home state. Since almost all of these purchases go unreported it appears this on-line state sales tax effort is an attempt to collect these unpaid taxes. What would work much better in using on line sellers to curb this tax evasion would be to have a simple system for the seller to report these sales to the buyer's state. While somewhat cumbersome it would remove the need to have the seller actually collect the sales tax and then turn over the proceeds to each state.

Apparently the real issue is the states' claim that an online out of state sale to a resident of its state results in a "presence" of the on line seller in the state. This is an issue that needs to be resolved by the courts.

amwldcoin · May 8, 2018 6:22AM

I think the big point here is the complexity involved. Unless ebay is able to come up with what will be some very expensive software to add the sales tax to a transaction, it will kill almost every small seller on ebay. There are literally hundreds of different tax rates. Many states are different county by county. Then think about our very precious exemption from sales tax on coins in many states. The complexity just goes on and on.

And who do you think is also pushing for this to happen? AMAZON! They have been forced to comply in most states and my understanding is they spent a chunk developing the software needed.

I will be retiring if the government passes a record keeping nightmare on to me!

@derryb said:
So, they want to make ebay sellers collect state sales tax on behalf of their buyers? Don't all retail stores already do this and why should an on-line seller be exempt?

ricko · May 8, 2018 6:32AM

This would be a nightmare to maintain, monitor and then to prosecute....I doubt it could be effectively enforced. It will drive a lot of sales underground and if ebay tries to enforce it, there will be new venues quickly appearing.... Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 6:49AM

If it ever becomes reality, eBay would be in the best position to develop software to assess collect and distribute the taxes. I would think it only fair that the costs incurred for doing that would be reimbursed equally by the states who wish to have the taxes collected.

halfhunter · May 8, 2018 7:23AM

Amazon should have fought this tooth-&-nail to.

stevek · May 8, 2018 7:42AM

@amwldcoin said:
I think the big point here is the complexity involved. Unless ebay is able to come up with what will be some very expensive software to add the sales tax to a transaction, it will kill almost every small seller on ebay. There are literally hundreds of different tax rates. Many states are different county by county. Then think about our very precious exemption from sales tax on coins in many states. The complexity just goes on and on.

And who do you think is also pushing for this to happen? AMAZON! They have been forced to comply in most states and my understanding is they spent a chunk developing the software needed.

I will be retiring if the government passes a record keeping nightmare on to me!

@derryb said:
So, they want to make ebay sellers collect state sales tax on behalf of their buyers? Don't all retail stores already do this and why should an on-line seller be exempt?

That's because Amazon, if they were king of the world, which Jeff Bezos would love to be, will gladly have all their third party sellers go away, and Amazon selling direct substituted in their place.

Amazon likes the complexity, they have the money to initiate any software which is needed, while small business does not have the money or resources to do that.

Of course the government will justify it all by coming out with a "plan" that they say will make everything "easy" for small business to collect and submit the tax. Never mind all the extra bookkeeping and accounting fees incurred by small business.

The sarcastic phrase of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" will be more relevant than ever.

PerryHall · May 8, 2018 8:09AM

It wouldn't just be state sales taxes that would have to be collected. There are hundreds of cities and local municipalities that also collect sales taxes. The average small eBay seller wouldn't be able to keep up with the changing tax rates of hundreds of places and to remit tax payments to all these places. Talk about an accounting nightmare.

ctf_error_coins · May 8, 2018 8:13AM

@PerryHall said:
It wouldn't just be state sales taxes that would have to be collected. There are hundreds of cities and local municipalities that also collect sales taxes. The average small eBay seller wouldn't be able to keep up with the changing tax rates of hundreds of places and to remit tax payments to all these places. Talk about an accounting nightmare.

The only way for this to work would be for ebay to "collect" the sales tax for all of the different municipalities and states with a software program that is updated constantly with any tax change nationwide and submit the taxes to the tax collectors. Or ebay gives you a page with all the information done for you at the end of the sales tax quarter.

topstuf · May 8, 2018 8:17AM

It would not accept my signature on the form. No idea why.
Pisses me off.

stevek · May 8, 2018 9:47AM

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@PerryHall said:
It wouldn't just be state sales taxes that would have to be collected. There are hundreds of cities and local municipalities that also collect sales taxes. The average small eBay seller wouldn't be able to keep up with the changing tax rates of hundreds of places and to remit tax payments to all these places. Talk about an accounting nightmare.

The only way for this to work would be for ebay to "collect" the sales tax for all of the different municipalities and states with a software program that is updated constantly with any tax change nationwide and submit the taxes to the tax collectors. Or ebay gives you a page with all the information done for you at the end of the sales tax quarter.

Or just get a resale licence

Of course it would be done that way...that's the way Amazon is doing it. And of course the sellers will windup paying for these higher processing costs in the way of higher seller fees in some way, shape or form.

However small businesses with websites would have to collect and remit the tax by themselves, according to some government plan that will no doubt be burdensome.

Let's also not forget that sales tax is a very regressive tax. The poor and middle class struggling to get by as it is, when they buy online, would now have to fork-up more money for the products that they need. For example a senior citizen shut-in who is disabled and can't go out to shop, would be forced to pay more money for online purchases.

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 10:12AM

@halfhunter said:
Amazon should have fought this tooth-&-nail to.

Is this what The Donald was referring to when he claims that Amazon doesn't pay any taxes?

MorganMan94 · May 8, 2018 10:16AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

Would you like to incur the hassle of collecting $6 for Iowa on a $100 eBay sale to someone in Iowa? Plus the expense of keeping track of sales tax collected for every state and incur the hassle of spending 50 cents to mail them the $6? Not I said the Little Red Hen.

6% is only for Polk and Story County as far as I know. Linn and Benton County are 7% but I can't comment much outside of that. Imagine someone from Arkansas or somewhere else having to know which rate to collect.

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 10:34AM

@MorganMan94 said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

Would you like to incur the hassle of collecting $6 for Iowa on a $100 eBay sale to someone in Iowa? Plus the expense of keeping track of sales tax collected for every state and incur the hassle of spending 50 cents to mail them the $6? Not I said the Little Red Hen.

6% is only for Polk and Story County as far as I know. Linn and Benton County are 7% but I can't comment much outside of that. Imagine someone from Arkansas or somewhere else having to know which rate to collect.

I just threw the 6% out as a for instance example. Not necessarily intended to be accurate; just intended to provide the drift. That's why it would be up to eBay, etc. to collect the taxes. There are thousands of internet sellers who couldn't afford to collect sales taxes for various states.

jafo50 · May 8, 2018 10:45AM

What about people who sell on ebay that are not businesses? If I sell some old item that I purchased decades ago am I supposed to collect sales tax on that transaction? I'm guessing the answer is yes. If this tax collecting requirement is implemented the casual but repeat seller will disappear on ebay.

LindeDad · May 8, 2018 10:49AM

9.9% in my city but coins and bullion are exempt in this state.

jmlanzaf · May 8, 2018 10:52AM

@jwitten said:

@derryb said:
Since everyone else has to pay taxes on profit, why should those who profit on ebay not pay taxes on their profit?

It's a new internet tax they are trying to ADD. Basically, if you sell to someone in your state, you are supposed to collect sales tax. If it is out of state, you don't. They are trying to make you collect sales tax to every state, which would decrease the amount of money you get to keep on your sale. You would still pay your normal taxes on your income as well.

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

It is mainly for sellers, not buyers. If you sell something to someone in another state, they would take some of your money from you.

actually, the sales tax would be applied to the sale, so it would be reflected in the buyers price.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. It would level the playing field.

jmlanzaf · May 8, 2018 10:53AM

@jafo50 said:
What about people who sell on ebay that are not businesses? If I sell some old item that I purchased decades ago am I supposed to collect sales tax on that transaction? I'm guessing the answer is yes. If this tax collecting requirement is implemented the casual but repeat seller will disappear on ebay.

If eBay collects the tax, it would cause no issue for the casual seller. In fact, my suspicion is that eBay doesn't want the responsibility.

jmlanzaf · May 8, 2018 10:54AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@halfhunter said:
Amazon should have fought this tooth-&-nail to.

Is this what The Donald was referring to when he claims that Amazon doesn't pay any taxes?

Amazon has locus in so many states now that they no longer oppose the internet sales tax. In fact, the more shipping centers they build to try and cut delivery times, the more they WANT an internet sales tax to level the playing field for them.

jmlanzaf · May 8, 2018 10:55AM

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@PerryHall said:
It wouldn't just be state sales taxes that would have to be collected. There are hundreds of cities and local municipalities that also collect sales taxes. The average small eBay seller wouldn't be able to keep up with the changing tax rates of hundreds of places and to remit tax payments to all these places. Talk about an accounting nightmare.

The only way for this to work would be for ebay to "collect" the sales tax for all of the different municipalities and states with a software program that is updated constantly with any tax change nationwide and submit the taxes to the tax collectors. Or ebay gives you a page with all the information done for you at the end of the sales tax quarter.

Agree. I suspect this is the ONLY REASON eBay is opposing the plan.

johnny9434 · May 8, 2018 10:59AM

@Outhaul said:

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

Which Commonwealth? Certainly not Taxachusetts.

taxatwoshits and connecticut isint any better. jmo

giorgio11 · May 8, 2018 11:08AM

I just signed. On our website we must add 5.3% tax for any Virginia residents unless they provide us a valid resale (e.g. dealer) number. Guess what? No one from Virginia EVER (well, hardly ever) orders from the website.

Kind regards,

George

RogerB · May 8, 2018 11:55AM

What's the practical difference between paying state sales tax and the virtually-mandatory "grading tax?" Nearly everyone here and on other coin boards insist that "grading" is required in today's market. So why the gripe about 2% to 4% sales tax in light of the 50% or more "grading tax?"

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 11:56AM

@RogerB said:
What's the practical difference between paying state sales tax and the virtually-mandatory "grading tax?" Nearly everyone here and on other coin boards insist that "grading" is required in today's market. So why the gripe about 2% to 4% sales tax in light of the 50% or more "grading tax?"

Because the 2-4% is tax on almost EVERYTHING. I don't buy from some places because their shipping charges are too high so why would I want the burden of taxes on top of that?

jmlanzaf · May 8, 2018 12:25PM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@RogerB said:
What's the practical difference between paying state sales tax and the virtually-mandatory "grading tax?" Nearly everyone here and on other coin boards insist that "grading" is required in today's market. So why the gripe about 2% to 4% sales tax in light of the 50% or more "grading tax?"

Because the 2-4% is tax on almost EVERYTHING. I don't buy from some places because their shipping charges are too high so why would I want the burden of taxes on top of that?

But the taxes would be identical on everything you buy. While no one likes taxes, it would make the playing field level.

jmlanzaf · May 8, 2018 12:26PM

@giorgio11 said:
I just signed. On our website we must add 5.3% tax for any Virginia residents unless they provide us a valid resale (e.g. dealer) number. Guess what? No one from Virginia EVER (well, hardly ever) orders from the website.

Kind regards,

George

Then you should kind of be in favor of the tax law. Since Virginia residents would pay Virginia sales tax to every vendor, your website would no longer be at a disadvantage.

ShadyDave · May 8, 2018 12:55PM

I'll just leave this relevant article here:

https://www.techspot.com/news/73582-newegg-customers-connecticut-receiving-tax-bills-past-purchases.html

ms70 · May 8, 2018 12:59PM

@ShadyDave said:
I'll just leave this relevant article here:

https://www.techspot.com/news/73582-newegg-customers-connecticut-receiving-tax-bills-past-purchases.html

That is absolutely outrageous. That's asking for a pitchfork revolution.

stevek · May 8, 2018 1:49PM

@ms70 said:

@ShadyDave said:
I'll just leave this relevant article here:

https://www.techspot.com/news/73582-newegg-customers-connecticut-receiving-tax-bills-past-purchases.html

That is absolutely outrageous. That's asking for a pitchfork revolution.

Future conversation heard between some inmates at a Connecticut prison:

What are you guys in for?

Me...bank robbery

Me...car theft

Me...drug dealing

Me...didn't pay sales tax on a TV set I bought from Newegg

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 2:49PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@RogerB said:
What's the practical difference between paying state sales tax and the virtually-mandatory "grading tax?" Nearly everyone here and on other coin boards insist that "grading" is required in today's market. So why the gripe about 2% to 4% sales tax in light of the 50% or more "grading tax?"

Because the 2-4% is tax on almost EVERYTHING. I don't buy from some places because their shipping charges are too high so why would I want the burden of taxes on top of that?

But the taxes would be identical on everything you buy. While no one likes taxes, it would make the playing field level.

I don't know where he got the 2-4% from, but he isn't talking about a VAT type flat tax.

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 2:52PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@halfhunter said:
Amazon should have fought this tooth-&-nail to.

Is this what The Donald was referring to when he claims that Amazon doesn't pay any taxes?

Amazon has locus in so many states now that they no longer oppose the internet sales tax. In fact, the more shipping centers they build to try and cut delivery times, the more they WANT an internet sales tax to level the playing field for them.

Trump said that Amazon was not paying THEIR FAIR SHARE. So to what was he referring? They aren't paying income taxes or they aren't collecting taxes for some other entity? Or DJT is misinformed as usual?

giorgio11 · May 8, 2018 2:56PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@giorgio11 said:
I just signed. On our website we must add 5.3% tax for any Virginia residents unless they provide us a valid resale (e.g. dealer) number. Guess what? No one from Virginia EVER (well, hardly ever) orders from the website.

Kind regards,

George

Then you should kind of be in favor of the tax law. Since Virginia residents would pay Virginia sales tax to every vendor, your website would no longer be at a disadvantage.

@Jmlanzaf No, I'm in favor of no sales tax on coins period. The margins are small enough without every local, state, and federal agency trying to take a piece.

Kind regards,

George

BAJJERFAN · May 8, 2018 3:02PM

@ShadyDave said:
I'll just leave this relevant article here:

https://www.techspot.com/news/73582-newegg-customers-connecticut-receiving-tax-bills-past-purchases.html

What power do they have to enforce that?

TwoSides2aCoin · May 8, 2018 3:17PM

Taxes make the government wheels spin out of control, when it comes to spending. Taxes should obliterate debt. How come we have so much of that ?

RogerB · May 8, 2018 3:18PM

Long ago the Hoover administration tried to impose a national sales tax as a means of reducing the income tax on wealthy individuals. Fortunately, sensible people outside of Hoover's party prevailed. Value Added Tax (VAT) proposals have originated with the same group.

ms70 · May 8, 2018 3:45PM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@ShadyDave said:
I'll just leave this relevant article here:

https://www.techspot.com/news/73582-newegg-customers-connecticut-receiving-tax-bills-past-purchases.html

What power do they have to enforce that?

They count on us being powerless and just rolling over.

DoubleEagle59 · May 8, 2018 3:54PM

@blitzdude said:
No worries here, coins and bullion tax free in the commonwealth. Those tax happy rhinos can go to strait to H E double L

I agree, or as we say in Canada......

'they can go straight to H E double hockey sticks.'

eBay's Tax Petition - Coin related (obviously)

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