What does PCGS do with the counterfeited coins(or doctored) that they receive?
jesbroken
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I read in the new PCGS newsletter today of a masterfully made alteration of a valuable colonial coin. Unbelieveable what the doctor did to this known coin. Hope you all read the article. Link below. What do they do with this coin? Surely, they do not return it or other doctored coins to the submitter. I just wondered what the end result could be.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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They return the coin to the owner with a note letting them know what's wrong with the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Interesting read. Crazy how good coin doctors can be.
Interesting read, thanks for posting it here for us
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Scary, that looks like a totally different coin. The repair on the obv. looks a lot better than the repaired part of the hole on the rev.
Wonder if whoever submitted the coin still has their submission privileges.
I can't believe that in all the small print regarding submissions, there is not a passage noting what they will do with doctored coins or counterfeit coins. If they cannot keep them from the submitters why not send them to the Secret Service or whoever these days gives a crap about this. Maybe that is the problem.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
So how many think the improved coin is worth more than the un repaired version? Curious why PCGS didn't put it in a details repaired holder. They could even go as far as to pedigree it!
Some really good work done on that coin. Great work detecting it. Makes one wonder how much other 'work' is out there... and most worry about AT...
Guaranteed that the market is flooded with that... both raw and slabbed. Cheers, RickO
I understand how distraught one might be about losing a coin they were unaware was counterfeit or doctored, but is it better to allow this coin to end up in some private collection that the new owner was unaware of it being doctored. I feel there are many, many key coins raw in collector's sdb or safe and it would be a true shame to allow this to happen when it may have been stopped. jmo
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Doctoring to make a coin look better: is that or should that be illegal? Why would PCGS send such a coin to the Secret Service? If someone tried to doctor a coin to defraud someone then that is already against the law. But to merely doctor a coin to make it attractive is not in and of itself necessarily fraudulent.
If someone has a classic car with a big dent and they repair it, should that be illegal?
Should we allow coin doctoring if the repair job is bad and very noticeable? Should only really good alterations be outlawed?
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to provide some food for thought....
I would feel intent to defraud would be proven by the fact that the submitter sent it to be graded which would enhance its value even though fraudulently. Obviously not a lawyer. JMO
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Everything PCGS does is “in their opinion “. Even that opinion changes on a regular basis, ie resubmissions which garner a different grade (opinion).
I can’t imagine our hosts wanting the responsibility of keeping coins people have submitted when in their opinion the coin is counterfeit. Customers would soon be crying foul for any number of reasons including coin switching and just not agreeing with PCGS opinions.
PCGS has done very well giving their opinion, charging for that service, and returning the coin(s) I think they should stay out of the confiscation business
Yes in that case I would agree that the case for fraud could potentially be made, but you would have to prove prior knowledge.
Wonder what the value of that coin is now at auction, especially after that article.
My Early Large Cents
Good detective work with PCGS.
Good thing the grader in this example decided to take longer than 6 seconds to grade it. Otherwise........
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Interesting !!!
Good detective work....on an obviously recolored coin. Would it have slabbed even if it weren't repaired? I'm not a colonial collector and not familiar with PCGS practice on these coins...but if that were an early large cent, my numismatic antennae would be at full attention because of hues in that coin being generally the result of recoloring (and, to the point of my prior question: are they market acceptable for this issue?). Curiously yours....Mike
I agree. The coin is damaged/repaired, not counterfeit. I'd like to see it slabbed in a "Genuine" holder, described with "Holed and Repaired" and "Recolored" or something of that nature, pedigreed "Ex-Craige Collection," and returned to the submitter.
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There is still a big difference between a doctored coin and a counterfeit. It should still be slabbed with notations about repairs. After all, the original coin had been tooled.
@ShadyDave said: "Wonder if whoever submitted the coin still has their submission privileges."
Why wouldn't they?
@jesbroken said: "I understand how distraught one might be about losing a coin they were unaware was counterfeit or doctored, but is it better to allow this coin to end up in some private collection that the new owner was unaware of it being doctored. I feel there are many, many key coins raw in collector's sdb or safe and it would be a true shame to allow this to happen when it may have been stopped."
"I can't believe that in all the small print regarding submissions, there is not a passage noting what they will do with doctored coins or counterfeit coins. If they cannot keep them from the submitters** why not send them to the Secret Service or whoever these days gives a crap about this.**
How long do you think a TPGS would be in business if ANY coin that in the OPINION OF THE TPGS was altered or counterfeit WOULD BE CONFISCATED!
LOL!
Surely they would block the submitter, huh?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
@WoodenJefferson said: "Surely they would block the submitter, huh?"
Let's see, I unknowingly buy an expertly repaired raw coin that turns out to have been in a previous auction in a TPGS slab graded Uncirculated "details" damaged. Do you think I should be banned?
IMHO, That is not the same as a person who routinely sends altered coins and can be proven over time to be a coin doctor. I think some of these folks were given the boot.
Well at the least then, a stern letter.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
The TPGS does not know the intent of the submitter. Her is an example of a coin I just photographed to possibly use in a future grading column.
Out of the holder, the $10 No Motto GEM gold coin has no obvious marks and EXCEPTIONAL eye appeal and color. On my grading screen the Min Grade requested is 64. Why?? Perhaps the dealer believes the coin is only worth MS-64 money.
I sent the coin to the next grader as Uncirculated "details" w/rub and altered surface (cheek + vertical scratch in front of face chemically altered to hide) Commercial 62? I don't think it will meet the minimum grade of MS-64 down the line here; but who knows what TPGS slab and what grade it will eventually make.
I do know this. The coin is a beauty and most who see it will agree! Does the submitter deserve a stern note for sending us a coin that has been "improved?"
When ANACS was founded in DC, The ANA knew they could not confiscate counterfeits or altered coins or they would not last long in business or be swamped with lawsuits. We sent a card back recommending the fake be returned to the seller and the SS be made aware of the sale so that if the government were interested the history of the coin could be traced back to the counterfeiter. We did not play "God." We advised anyone who disputed our opinion that they should send their coin to the Secret Service for another opinion. We knew what would happen to the coin if it as not genuine.
I had a gold coin, not US, that was deemed Not Authentic by one leading TPG when another leading TPG called it Authentic. I would not have been happy if the 'Not Authentic' TPG had kept the coin.
DPOTD-3
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Don
Nice catch. It is good that PCGS was able to discover this coin before it ended up in a graded holder.
On the other hand, it kind of reminds me of the news story where the DEA and local law enforcement intercept a million dollar shipment of drugs. Great work, but you just know that a hundred other shipments made it through and are on the street.
How would you know which one got it right? There are counterfeits in top tier grading company slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Wonder what would have happened the Dr had added some marks to the coin and removed a few of the existing marks ...
If the submitter knew of the repair it should have been submitted as such. If the coin is worth that much without repair I would think the person who purchased it would have an inkling of what to look for. Shadyside
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Why not put in details/repaired slab? As far as counterfeit, would you want a one ounce gold coin stolen from you because someone decide they felt it was counterfeit?
IMO, The label should have stated: "Repaired." "Altered Surfaces" is a much "softer" description that ignores the more deceptive and damaging description. This is the same as using "Cleaned" to describe a heavily polished coin.
All TPGS's (including where I work and over my screaming and kicking protestations) tend to do these things a lot. My mom didn't raise a weasel. While I understand that any "detailed" coin drops in value, educating the collector about the actual problem and its degree should be important - effect on value to the submitter be damned.
Which TPGS do you work for?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Everything is in my profile.
Except the TPGS (presently ICG) as I've worked at five (except PCGS) and started NCS. I "had to" reveal my ID sooner than I had planned when a member who knows me left a big hint. 
How about you?
I've never worked in the coin industry either as a grader or as a coin dealer. I've been a collector since the late 1950's when I was in grade school. I remember when the wheat cent was changed to the Lincoln Memorial cent. At the time, it was a really big deal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"intent to defraud" would certainly NOT be proven by somewhat submitting it. The likelihood of such a coin being found out by a TPG is much higher than selling it raw to a collector. If anything, submitting it to PCGS sounds more like evidence of honesty.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Repaired isn't counterfeit.
Heck, the TPGs do "conservation" themselves. "Doctoring" an authentic coin is not illegal UNLESS there is intent to defraud. Unless there is a pattern of behavior, good luck proving that.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.