Theft at show, noticed later, best procedure?
logger7
Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
This happened years ago. What would have been the best way to handle it? I brought a group of coins, some post WWII silver issues and clad in a box; I also had some certified and gold coins in the dealer case. There was very little business activity at the show. A vest pocket show dealer asked to look through my silver and clad coins which were in a box in the case with the more valuable coins. He took a long time, I figured he was to be trusted as he was a dealer. I turned my back several times and was not following what he was looking through. He was the only guy to look through the coins. Later when I got home I noticed three gold coins missing, a PCGS Saint in one of the early generation regency conservative holders; a proof gold eagle and a counterfeit $20 Lib., 1903 that had the usual metal content. When I brought it up with the show manager he dismissed my complaint. He said it was my own fault, "you were too careless". Legally was there anything I could do after the fact which would have been effective?
Comments
I'll take a stab at this, even though I don't practice criminal law.
You could have, and should have filed a police report on the theft, even afterwards. For example, it could be important for insurance or tax purposes. Plus, it creates a record. On the civil side, you have an actionable civil claim for theft, or conversion against the individual. Depending upon the law of your jurisdiction, you may still have a claim. I don't see the organizer as having any responsibility, however.
Your main problem is timing, With the passage of time, memories fade, people are harder to track down and identify, and naturally, things get stale. For that reason, I am not suggesting that you do anything now. Proving something like this can be difficult to impossible in the best of circumstances, and it becomes more difficult with the passage of time.
Having said that, I have sued in such a situation (not coins or collectibles) on behalf of a client, years after the fact. And my client filed a police report late as well. The difference was that the individual's employer acknowledged the taking, ensured return of the items (but they were damaged), and after a year or more, denied liability. The police do not appear particularly interested, and the civil matter continues.
I'm sorry for your loss by some scumbag. And good luck.
Tom
Lots of stolen coin posts today. Be careful who you trust and learn from mistakes so it will not happen again. Expensive education though. Sorry for your lost.
I am sorry it happened to you and you must bothered by it to a great deal. Is there camera around which might capture the concealing of the said coins? Do you have them insured & police report filled? I am sorry to hear this....
The problem on a case like this where you notice something missing later without any surveillance cameras or others watching is evidence. I have excellent recall and a clean record; the guy who I suspected I mentioned to a collector, "Matt" who said he had heard the same thing about the guy. But the law is based on evidence.
I had a dealer in Baltimore in 2007 switch a coin on me, an AU 19-S Buffalo and I didn't notice it until 3 dealers later. It was in a flip, not slabbed. He was the only one who did an "oops I dropped it" and I didn't catch on. I didn't have the guts to call him on it, today you'd hear me screaming from the cheap seats. I likely couldn't prove it, but you'd still hear me.
I think that anyone that would want to look at my coins would have to hand me their drivers License. I guess that's why I don't do shows.
I have to show my DL for all sorts of things nowadays why not have to show it to look at coins at a show? I would of course snap a pic of it or write down the info on it.........
Personally if a dealer asked me for my DL to see his coins I would have no problem with it.
makes sense really,
bob
That does not seem like a very good attitude for a show manager to have.
Who was this vest-pocket dealer and who was the show manager ?
And did they know each other ?
I have both their names, but it is dangerous to make accusations you can't prove. I don't know if there was a connection between the two. At a later show, not the same manager, I told an off duty cop about it, and he asked me who it was, a guy I have seen at subsequent shows, and he said there was nothing I could do.
Thieves abound in the coin world. We read about it often. Identify the scum and drain the swamp.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Very sad. I guess incidents like this is why many dealers are reluctant to let me go through their coins. I am just a collector, not any kind of dealer.
I honestly wouldn't mind handing my license over while I browse coins. In my state I've gotta hand it over until I'm done buying w**d or booze. Those are nothing compared to thousands of dollars in a tiny pocketable holder.
The oops I dropped it excuse is so dumb. Learn basic card tricks and misdirects and nobody will ever know until it's too late.
Also I'm very surprised a lot of dealers don't have wireless cameras both facing where lights are and facing upward. Then you have a live, recorded feed of the persons face and hands.
I was trying to sell some surplus PCGS slabbed Morgans, nothing special. I had the in a PCGS blue box, no opens. One dealer was very pushy and dismissive, basically glancing at and tossing my slabs in a pile. When she was done, I was short a coin, and protested right there that it was full and she cursed me out and called security. I was told to leave her area and not come back. I found out later this was not uncommon from her, "loosing" a coin or 2 while she reviewed them, or sliding in a lower grade coin.
On the bright side, several dealers looked at them, none bought, but when I got home, my 1883-CC in MS64 had mutated to an 1883-CC DMPL.
Short 1, but stock had improved more than the lost coin.
She swapped a previous snag on accident, you think?
I hate reading about such things. Sorry for your lost !!!
...you shouldn’t have asked an off duty cop IMHO...and the show manager was correct as you were too careless; never turn your back on money...there are some creative methods in which won’t be discussed that could have been done but time was of the essence and “years ago” doesn’t work very well in the street
I wouldn't take more than a few coins at a time to sell at a show, unless I had already arranged to meet a known dealer...just too much going on to keep track of a lot of items.
Sorry for your loss. Jewelers only allow one piece on the counter at a time...this is good policy and prevents most loss (except the really good slight of hand with prior preparation)...This should be strict policy especially with gold coins or those of special numismatic value. I am sure junk boxes suffer losses all the time... Cheers, RickO
I don’t let customers look at multiple coins at once unless this is a junk box of coins $10 or less and if they don’t buy anything after about 15- 20 min I simply take it from them and put away. Newps put away in coin case until can be processed, priced for retail. I trust no one especially vest pocket traders.
When displaying your material at a show you need to control what they are shown outside of the glass display case. They will try to switch, steal, or rip you. If they take too long I will get rid of them. I don’t tolerate anyone trying to take multiple items from my case either (to look at).
Every bourse form I have signed has a clause they are not responsible for theft. Your only recourse is to confront the thief before they leave the show / contact security / law enforcement. If that guy has nerve return confront him loudly and make sure bourse room knows.
You screwed up royally losing gold coins at a show. I work too hard making retail money at shows to let some collector or dealer to take control of my inventory like that. Controlling the security of your inventory is goal 1. Never ever take your eyes off them or your material.
One time I bought a couple BU rolls of Frank’s from walkup seller at bid. My plan to slab / retail them make good money which I did over next several months. Not 5 minutes later this guy walks up wanting look thru them (cherry picker - hate them). I told him “these are for a customer.” He said “it’s the only thing I was interested in.” I told him “we’ll go find some then.” After that I put newps in a bank bag in my case until can research / price for retail.
I hear you. Just because someone is a 'dealer' does not make them beyond reproach.
Years ago, I went on a house-call appraisal/offer. I explained what I would charge the customer if the deal was not sold to me, and this would be refunded if the deal was subsequently sold within such-and-such time.
It was a nice collection and took me four or five hours. Although sizable, there were only 5 or 6 serious coins. The customer didn't sell the deal and paid me the appraisal. Fine.....
They contact me about two weeks later, the deal is mine. They bring it to my store and unload. I ask them if the deal is as I left it. They tell me that only one other person had seen it and they tell me who it was. I had known this dealer for years and had no problem. I buy the package and refund their appraisal. Sure enough, in the subsequent days, I find that a Type II gold dollar in choice AU is missing. It wasn't a deal breaker, but I had a stomach ache for a while. I never looked at this other dealer in the same way since.
I though about this for a long time. The customer knew nothing about coins, and had inherited this collection . I suspect the other dealer just wanted to appear to be a 'nice guy' that doesn't charge appraisal fees.
It's kind of heart-breaking really.......
I agree with dealers who have strict protocols on letting customers examine their coins. In this case I was new to the game, and with the challenges making money as a dealer at a show with greatly increased risks of a security nature, I'm glad I haven't played dealer at a show for a long time. I had called the manager, I didn't have a case and he said he would provide one. There was little buying activity, the one vest pocket was one of the few buying at that show.
Even experienced dealers who do all the weekend shows don't necessarily make much profit, so for those, like an area teacher who buys from the public and then sets up at weekend shows, usually only generates wholesale dealer buying, not the retail people need as an alternative to internet and auction sales.
As a seller at a show, you are responsible for security of your items.