If authentication companies do not destroy counterfeits,...
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
... what should collectors do with them on return?
0
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Return them to the dealer that they bought them from for a refund.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
melt them to base metal?
Take a dremel to it prior to returning. Can’t deface something that is only worth the metal value.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Use a "PCGS Reject" counterstamp. Who knows, they might become collectible
Overstrike them using a decommissioned US Mint press and watch them split apart like metal particle board
When I was at ANACS and teaching Summer Seminar courses in counterfeit detection I had a Secret Service agent as a student one year. He told me that every year many counterfeits were mailed to the Secret Service by people who got them back from ya with a note suggesting they do so.
Collect them as counterfeits.
I would put it in a flip and mark it as counterfeit or I would invest it in a gumball prize.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I think the TPGs should slab them labeled as counterfeit. Less likely to eventually be resold as real and they’d be more collectible
I’ve ground up a few. Sent a few to the ANA for teaching. I’ve also resold a few with full disclosure.
You guys all forgot the.... Put it on eBay with a Grand Pa story!!!!
"This extremely rare and valuable coin was left me by "Daddy Warbucks" who was a great uncle of the family. He fought at the battle of Gallipoli in WWI and the battle of the Bulge in WWII. It was traded to him by General Omar Bradley with this note that has been certified by experts".
Does Ali Babba accept returns?
A very tricky issue.... On the one hand, it is nice to have counterfeit coins for reference and training. On the other hand, likely some small segment of our fellow collectors will sell it as original. I do not believe the TPG should be doing anything except returning property that is not theirs. So, what is the answer? Maybe it is not even counterfeit? For me, the best answer, is self policing of our hobby. Not a perfect answer, but the best one I can think of at this time. Cheers, RickO
@Kkathyl said: "Take a dremel to it prior to returning. Can’t deface something that is only worth the metal value."
I would sue your butt if you destroyed my property. Then the person who sold it to me would say...
@PerryHall said: "Return them to the dealer that they bought them from for a refund."
That is the best. As The Captain says below, the Certification Service suggested you return the fake to the dealer and notify SS that you have returned a C/F to so-and-so.
@CaptHenway said: When I was at ANACS and teaching Summer Seminar courses in counterfeit detection I had a Secret Service agent as a student one year. He told me that every year many counterfeits were mailed to the Secret Service by people who got them back from ya [Certification Service] with a note suggesting they do so.
@drfish said: "I think the TPGs should slab them labeled as counterfeit. Less likely to eventually be resold as real and they’d be more collectible. GREAT IDEA! Already an option at one of the four major grading services. I predict THE OTHER THREE WILL DO THE SAME. While it hurts the bottom $$$ line **(more time, effort, and cost of materials) it is a great idea.
@TwoSides2aCoin said: "I’ve ground up a few. Sent a few to the ANA for teaching. I’ve also resold a few with full disclosure."
I like the last two options. I collect DECEPTIVE counterfeits. You would not believe how hard it is to get them.
Think about it. A dealer is not going to sell a $$$ counterfeit cheap and lose a ton of money!
But can we cherry pick his stock using the grey sheet for counterfeit coins?
Could post them on the forum and ask for advice but then defiantly reject anyone's response that tells you they're fake....
ICG has a yellow holder for fakes:
Too bad they don't have some type of crack proof system to go with that. or have a red dye come out with an alarm if you do.
You have to return a coin in the condition you received it. The person that receives it back may need to return it to someone else and that person may need to return it to where he got it from.
I like what ICG is doing. Stick it in plastic for folks to learn from.
I like the ICG slab as well, but if I recall, you actually pay extra for this slab.
Only the over-stamping suggestion removes a counterfeit from future deception.
I agree if the "stamp" looks like an oriental chop!
Well....they could be stamped:
Shan Zhai
山 寨
I prefer...好的，假的
The does have a bit of a "ring" to it...:)
I had a Pillar Dollar I bought from a local dealer years ago. It was guaranteed authentic by dealer. I sent it to PCGS and it came back counterfeit and it was a good one. Well I simply returned to the coin with the body bag to the dealer for a full refund. I would have been pissed if PCGS would have destroyed the counterfeit.
Did you know that some of the contemporary counterfeit Pillar dollars are worth more to some collectors than the genuine example?
Reflecting more on the original question/comment: "If authentication companies do not destroy counterfeits,..."
1) "Authentication companies" sometimes get it wrong
2) it is not their property to deface.
If they want to call in the Secret Service every time they encounter a coin they feel is counterfeit that would create a bureaucratic and logistical nightmare. I doubt the SS would want to take on this burden, which would lead to an overwhelming volume of court cases as owners tried to get their property back. I also doubt collectors would tolerate having their submissions forfeited to the government (especially in the case of fakes made from gold). Furthermore, this approach would deny the submitter any recourse in returning the coin to the person they got it from.
As has been mentioned, many contemporary counterfeits are collectable and valuable in their own right. Also, every good counterfeit is an educational tool.
Counterfeit coins that have been detected by a TPG are not the worst part of the problem. They are the last stop in the chain of events. The real problem is with those who make and distribute counterfeits.
I learned from a former employee that when the Certification Service was started by the ANA they were worried that the SS would shut them down after knocking on the door and confiscating all the fakes. That only happened once. An agent came by, asked the director if he had a specific 1914-D counterfeit cent and took it! I imagine some behind the scenes stuff took place because that never happened again. Counterfeit and altered coins were returned to the submitter with a note to return the coin to the dealer and inform the SS about the transaction. I also learned that the number of authentications SS was asked to do dropped by over 90% after the Certification Service was founded. Additionally, SS agents would stop in on occasion to ask for help with a coin as it was faster than going thru "channels" at the Treasury Dept.
Thx for that back story. That is fascinating about the how the SS evolved. I had not considered that angle but their job got a lot easier when TPGs started authenticating coins.
@JBK said: "Thx for that back story. That is fascinating about the how the SS evolved. I had not considered that angle but their job got a lot easier when TPGs started authenticating coins."
I know you know this but in case others don't, the SS was established a long, long time ago. At some point, they became involved with counterfeiting. Mostly paper currency but also our coins. AFAIK, they have no lab to carry out the coin authentications. I'm pretty sure that was done by Treasury technicians at the Mint's lab.
I have been inside the DC office of the SS once several decades ago. They had a case of unusual coins like patterns (one was a commemorative 50c) in the waiting area. In another room, an agent pulled out counterfeit $100 bills from huge flat drawers in a metal rack-like cabinet for us to look at.
Any coin that might be determined to be counterfeit should not be returned to the owner of the coin, until the owner has the right to due process to assert a claim of authenciticity. If the owner of the coin in question does not dispute the finding then the coin will be given a mark that identifies it as not being genuine and is returned as such to the owner. By this, the owner's rights would not be subverted and the owner may still have rights in the ownership chain.
OINK
Nice in theory, but what right does the TPG have to retain the submitters property? Furthermore, the submitter has paid to have the coin authenticated (or not). The TPG is merely being paid to render an opinion. For that matter, if the stakes are being raised to this level, then what should the TPGs have to do to prove they are qualified to exercise such power? What recourse will there be if a coin is determined to be fake, defaced, and then another TPG decides it was real after all?
I suspect there is a reason why things are the way they are in regard to this subject. We don't need a "solution" in search of a problem....
The submission agreement needs to be changed to reflect the ability of the TPG to correctly identify a coin as C/F. If you try to deposit a fake $100 bill at your bank and it is determined to be C/F do you think that you have the right to get it back to put it back into commerce? I do not not think that you have any inherent right to trade C/F currency. Perhaps you can remain in possession of it if it is appropriately marked as such.
OINK
I agree with you. TPGs are not a law enforcer and do not have the right to confiscate let alone destroy their clients properties for any reason.
The critical distinction here is that your counterfeit $100 bill would be turned over to the Secret Service by the bank. If the SS wants to get involved with TPGs then that would be different. (Refer to previous discussions above).
A better analogy would be if a store told you your $100 bill was fake and kept it and made you sue to get it back. No one would tolerate that and they have no right to confiscate your property.
"The critical distinction here is that your counterfeit $100 bill would be turned over to the Secret Service by the bank. If the SS wants to get involved with TPGs then that would be different. (Refer to previous discussions above).
A better analogy would be if a store told you your $100 bill was fake and kept it and made you sue to get it back. No one would tolerate that and they have no right to confiscate your property."
Whether it is currency or coin, you do not have inherent right to use C/F as legal tender. I do think that you can posses as long as it is stamped obviously as such. Your argument follows along the lines of sanctuary cities that believe that they have no responsibility to enforce immigration law.
OINK
Do they attribute counterfeit varieties like for contemporary counterfeits? It may be interesting to note it for collectors.
Ouch! But I think you might have it backwards. Govt authorities at all levels enforce the law in some regard (or are supposed to). TPGs do not. The best they can do is alert the feds.
I am saying that a private company has no right to decide on its own to confiscate private property. Only the SS can do that (in regard to money deemed counterfeit). You seem to keep missing that point.
IF the TPG wants to turn the alleged fake over to the SS then it is their ballgame. Otherwise, TPG has no right to act as judge and jury.
The next time your car is in the shop, how would you feel if the owner said he thought it was stolen and he was keeping it unless you initiated legal action and successfully won your case?
Ask yourself: would the TPGs want this role or responsibility? NO WAY! The legal processes outlined in your proposal would bankrupt them.
No reason to debate or further as it is never going to happen.
well guys, in Canada it is illegal to possess any fake Canadian currency or coins.
The law says you "can" get up to 14 years in "Sing Sing: even for possession or also for possession of instruments or tools intended to make forgeries.
Having the item stamped or marked as "copy" or similar makes NO difference.
Why?
because the item had to be made before it was stamped or marked.
what do the laws provide in the USA?
@OldIndianNutKase said: "Any coin that might be determined to be counterfeit should not be returned to the owner of the coin, until the owner has the right to due process to assert a claim of authenciticity. If the owner of the coin in question does not dispute the finding then the coin will be given a mark that identifies it as not being genuine and is returned as such to the owner. By this, the owner's rights would not be subverted and the owner may still have rights in the ownership chain."
Get real! Oh, I'm sorry, it takes all kinds...after all, your opinion is important. It helps me remember to stay strong and fight against opinions such as this.
@OldIndianNutKase said: "The submission agreement needs to be changed to reflect the ability of the TPG to correctly identify a coin as C/F. If you try to deposit a fake $100 bill at your bank and it is determined to be C/F do you think that you have the right to get it back to put it back into commerce? I do not not think that you have any inherent right to trade C/F currency. Perhaps you can remain in possession of it if it is appropriately marked as such."
I believe this is a tactic of "progressives." Change the subject. AFAIK, our currency is not the same as our vintage coins. That's why the government has done nothing about the counterfeits flooding the country. They concentrate on our currency. Want to change that, let them start producing 2017 halves and quarters as they have done with the English circulating coins on several occasions.
@Zoins asked: "Do they attribute counterfeit varieties like for contemporary counterfeits? It may be interesting to note it for collectors."
Yes. Most attributions I've seen are for VAM's on counterfeit Morgan dollars. I've also seen Machin's Mills and coins with "electrotype" and "Becker" on the label.
@YQQ said: "Well guys, in Canada it is illegal to possess any fake Canadian currency or coins. The law says you "can" get up to 14 years in "Sing Sing: even for possession or also for possession of instruments or tools intended to make forgeries. Having the item stamped or marked as "copy" or similar makes NO difference.
Why? Because the item had to be made before it was stamped or marked.
IMO, Canada is our backward cousin.
From what I've seen Canada is weaker in law enforcement, unless in doing so it serves the mighty state's interest, as in border crossings, collecting VAT taxes, etc. where they are fierce. It's why many of the crooked penny stock companies are located in Canada. And I doubt the Canadian authorities are any harder on fakes than the US.
Thx for adding that perspective from north of the border. That is very interesting.
Of course, the US is a bit more rebellious than Canada (hence no Queen on our coinage). The laws are probably a lot stricter than what is routinely enforced. As @Insider2 said, vintage counterfeits don't usually interest law enforcement, but modern fakes and modern currency especially would get you a visit from some guys and girls in black SUVs.
Plus, we have a strong history of grandfather clauses - if something was legal at one time, while future production could be banned, confiscating examples that were legally held at the time the new law was passed is normally avoided. So, as laws against copies and reproductions have gotten stricter over the decades, the stuff that predates the law stays legal (as far as I know), which of course opens up loopholes since you can't be sure when something was actually produced.
I had also heard that it was illegal to counterstamp Canadian coins, but I know there are a few that are popular and trade freely - the JOP dollars and the 1970 G.A.N. dollars. So, the Mounties must have made their peace with those.
Basically, the mounties do not care unless there are tons of fakes in one place. The do not have the funding to pursue individuals who have a handful of Big Tree coins. They are quietly confirming this by doing nothing about the problem.
the BoC (Bank of Canada) does also not care one iota as they do absolutely nothing to counter the fakes.
Politicians??? well, they fall in to the same category. However, that may be the route to go very soon.
So, I have given up reporting fakes to others. It's not my job.
Ebay does not care either, despite what they write in their BS small print. As long as the resulting revenue is ok, they will tolerate fake items being sold.( not just coins)
I am not aware of counterstamping a coin being illegal in Canada. I believe it is not illegal to deface a Canadian coin as long as it is not an attempt to change its face value.
Seems like one reason counterfeits may be hard to tackle because some collectors like them.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/996348/trade-dollars-newps#latest
Why do they say "NOT GENUINE" on the label rather than just say "COUNTERFEIT" or "FAKE"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It would also be useful to have distinctions between "CONTEMPORARY COUNTERFEIT" and "MODERN COUNTERFEIT".
Counterfeit coins made prior to about 1940 can be useful to economists. They offer an opportunity to see micro applications of money theory and circulation. With exception of a very small quantity of false pieces made for collector exchange, all of these counterfeits were intended to be passed as authentic money. (This includes sweated, filled and otherwise altered pieces, also.)
After about 1940, the circulating money aspect fades and outright falsification for premium profit kicks in. Counterfeiting of circulating money has not vanished as anyone in Britain or Ecuador can testify. There is no justification for holding these other than possibly perverse amusement.
Counterfeit paper currency is a different matter.
So there is a strong correlation between counterfeits issued and economic dearth? I remember back in the 60s kids, etc. were able to get slugs at construction sites that would work in quarter slots for a while. Then the companies wised up to the fraud; even Canadian dimes and quarters couldn't fool the coin payment slot machines.