CBH grading and a 10 year giveaway prize. RESULTS ANNOUNCED in top post.
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
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RESULTS ARE IN! (The actual PCGS grades are cited atop each set of images.)
Twenty members participated in this challenge. Knowing how hard it can be to distinguish high AU bust halves from low MS (as well as just getting close to guessing an MS grade), I did not expect any one to guess all six. It was my hope that comments left about guesses might prove insightful. So I engaged @Insider2 to evaluate comments and choose the best guess-justification to determine the prize winner.
To my shock and amazement, one member nailed all six coins! Not only that, this member correctly cited the two plus designations (which weren't required for the contest)! That's pretty darned impressive. CONGRATS TO MEMBER, @Vbowling, FOR HIS EXTRAORDINARY LUCK AND SKILL. (Vbowling, please PM your mailing address for the prize.)
Honorable mention must go to @cameonut2011 for getting 5 out of 6 right and missing the 6th by just one grade point. Even the two pluses were cited correctly. Remarkable! I'm in awe.
Still, I so appreciate the efforts made to describe the grade reasoning, and because I was counting on rewarding someone for it, that I would like to award a second VF raw bust half to the member @Insider2 selects. TBA.
FWIW, below is a table of the guesses. Most members distinguished the higher graded coins from the lower MS ones. Very impressive!
Thanks for playing,
Lance.
P.S. Re the cryptic penultimate sentence in the original post: Today is pi day. When it was Tuesday 11:59 and 26 seconds PM Mountain Time it was Wednesday 1:59AM on the East coast (where I'm from). 3/14 1:59.26. Get it?
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At the request of @Insider2 (and asking his forgiveness for a spin on his request) I present a half dozen half dollars whose grades range from AU58 to MS64.
The challenge is to put them in grade order, lowest to highest and explain why you guessed as you did. You must cite a grade for each coin. (FWIW, two have plus grades which really shouldn't change perceptions and don't otherwise matter to guesses. Just for transparency.)
This is my 10 year anniversary. So a give-back is appropriate. I have learned far more here than I have offered others. I am humbled by the best and the brightest here. Many thanks for your help and advice.
The prize, for the first correct guess, is a raw, original, unmolested 1818 capped bust half in ~VF30 condition. It is not without circulation marks.
If no guess is 100% correct then the post with the best justification for the grade guesses, as judged by @Insider2, will win. (Ha...do like the way I put that on him? If you don't like his judgment please feel free to click his "disagree" icon...he collects them.)
The contest ends on Tuesday at 11:59 and 26 seconds PM Mountain Time. (Some of you may get this.)
Here are the coins.
Lance.
coin #1 MS61
coin #2 AU58
coin #3 MS62
coin #4 AU58+
coin #5 MS63
coin #6 MS64+
Comments
1 au58
stars are flat. Wear below year and a deep cut left of chest
6 ms62
worn on stars. light damage on edge. heavy distracted mark on the right
2 ms63
worn on stars and flat hair style.
4 ms63
Cut on star on 11o'clock slight worn on hair
5 ms64
problem free coin small nicks around chest and a dent on the cheek
3 ms64+
highly strike and lack of wear. Could be something there that I don't sees from being a 65. (I am assuming the streaks on the reverse come are from holder)
P.S If I win, please pass on the prize to the second up. I had reconsided and changed some grade of coins after checking out more clearly. It will not be fair for others.
thx
Gorgeous coins! I'll give it an uneducated guess...#6-AU58 rub on hair and eagle, #4-MS60 slight rub on hair n eagle but the beautiful toning carried it, #3-MS61+ marks in fields, #5-MS62+ hit/scratch on cheek n chest, #1-MS63 cheek n neck chatter, breast hits, #2-MS64 cheek/neck disturbances. Thank you!
1) AU58 - weak strike and touch of wear on the high spots
6) AU58 - touch of wear on high spots
3) MS61 - dipped and retoned
2) MS62 - weak strike
5) MS63 - lightly dipped but overall nice, some nicks
4) MS64 - nice toned and free of any major surface marks
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Coin # 1 MS-60
Coin # 2 AU-58
Coin # 3 MS-63
Coin # 4 MS-61
Coin # 5 MS-64
Coin # 6 MS-62
Fantastic coins! Explanation: Graded each coin assigning one of each grade. Order 2, 1, 4, 6, 3, 5.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Here are my thoughts on this gorgeous group of Bust Half Dollars. It's all from my gut as I really don't have any experience grading coins like these.
Coin 1) 1808 AU-58+.
I see rub on Liberty’s face, hair, neck and chest as well as on the eagle’s head, upper wings and feathers.
Coin 6) 1825 MS-60.
While I’d call this one an AU, think it has enough detail and the rub could be considered cabinet friction to make it into the Unc category. The dark marks behind Liberty’s head are distracting, the surfaces look a bit impaired from the toning but not enough to warrant environmental damage.
Coin 4) 1812 MS-61+.
Again, I see what appears to be the lightest of rub that could be considered cabinet friction of the 200+ years this coin has survived. The muted luster is what is holding this one down to the 61 level.
Coin 2) 1809 MS-62.
The muted luster and haziness of the surfaces I think are what put this coin in the 62 range. It looks to have just the ever so slightest friction marks. Had it had better eye appeal, it would have gone higher.
Coin 3) 1811 MS-63
This is a beautiful coin with an excellent strike and positive toning that adds to the eye appeal. While the luster is a bit muted I don’t think it had enough to carry it to the MS-64 level.
Coin 5) 1822 MS-64.
The great strike along with wonderful luster help this coin a lot. The very few contact marks and neutral toning are what is keeping this one out of the Gem category. Had this coin had the peripheral toning of coins 3 or 4 it would be at an MS-65 in my opinion.
1: AU58-light rub on the high points
2: MS63-attractive coin with not full mint bloom, random hits
3: MS64-nice luster, attractive toning(can I have it, LOL)
4: MS62-lacking slightly in the luster department
5: MS64+-oh so close to gem, attractive toning too
6: AU58+-light rub on high points, but PQ appeal
Congratulations on ten years on the forum, and Thank you for your contributions...I have learned a lot from you. Not enough to qualify for grading these beauties though.... I will watch with interest. Cheers, RickO
Edit away! Your comments are important.
Lance,
alright here goes nothing!
2 AU58 because I know you only put pretty ones in here and this is as low as you would go on the comparison. slight wear good luster but friction on face and neck.
4 AU58+ Has obvious wear but super eye appeal and I think that's what it takes for the 58+
1 MS61 looks like it could have gone 58+ or 61 and I think it had too close of a strike and got the 61. softly struck at center limited it from the 62 category
3 MS62 Nice coin but maybe retoned nicely in an old album. looks well struck but something seems off. net graded to 62
5 MS63 decent luster although a touch bright. fields look clean but cheek has a few grade limiting ticks.
6 MS64+ Nice coin that looks to have good luster and original toning but the darker streaks kept it out of a gem holder.
I think coin 3 is going to decide if I got this right or not!
Unfortunately I know all the grades of Lance’s bust halves he posted. But, it will certainly be interesting to see the responses...however, more importantly, why you think so.
The end result will be a lesson on grading of course, but I am positive a lot of you will wind up scratching your heads and saying, “Whaaaaaat?....No way!”
Best of luck to everyone on winning Lance’s most generous give away.
P.S. Gorgeous halves, Lance!
Dave
Nice coins and a very difficult challenge
Not sure the commentary helps the cause.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
MS63; AU58; 64; 62; 64+; 63+. All very fresh and original looking.
Coin # 1 AU-58
Coin # 2 MS-60
Coin # 3 MS-63 * undergraded
Coin # 4 MS-61
Coin # 5 MS-64 * What a beauty
Coin # 6 MS-62
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
-
In order from lowest grade "guessed" to highest:
Coin #6 AU-58 Due to slight color difference on what looks to be wear on the talon and other high points.
Coin #1 MS-61 Looks to me to be uncirculated, (where are the distracting marks on any of the remaining coins?) but not quite attractive enough to be a 62
Coin #2 MS-62 The quality of luster is just not quite attractive enough to warrant a the next higher grade.
Coin #4 MS-62 Nice eye appeal. I think possibly a slight bit of rub, but market graded to 62. In my grading this is an AU-64.?.
Coin #3 MS-63 + I am truly guessing at these.... I don't know...i'm just guessing to win the giveaway! I would love to have ONE bust half in my collection.
Coin #5 MS-64 + Very attractive and you said they were between 58 and 64, so I'm limited to giving this one a 64 guess.
I'm not going to compete either, Lance, but great coins and a generous giveaway to the lucky/knowledgeable winner.
Congrats on 10 years on the forum and all your contributions.
10 years of amazing images! You are an asset to this forum and to me!!
Geez Lance, don't you have some better CBH's that you can use as examples for your great giveaway?
I will take a stab at it....all of your coins are MS63 so that means that I really have no idea.
Maybe the 1812 is the 58?
The 1808..1812.. And 1825 are my guesses for the 3 lowest grades.
I'll asume that there is one coin for each grade? So..that'll mean that ill have to figure out which of these grade 60 and 61....(although i really cant believe any of these coins were assigned those grades..)
Ok..
4..58. slight rub..great eye appeal
6..60 gorgeous coin..maybe a bit too crusty on the toning for a higher grade?? Got me..
1..61 flat out choice 1808
Well then..that leaves the top three. One of which i presume is a 62?? Hard to believe but if so, this group of coins is a great example of how the folks who consider coins in the 60-62 grades to be junk really dont know what they're talking bout.
5 ..62 toning is too dark on the obverse for a higher grade?..in fact this may be the 61 but i really dont know (obviously)
2..63 Gorgeous and a really early date! In fact the first year really for the type imo
but once again perhaps a tad dark for gem status??
3..64 the best of the bunch...super fantastic! Before Lance started collecting mint state cbh we would have all drooled at his image of this one and not beleved our eyes that it was 58
You can send the 1818 to the same old address
Um..not sure why the text turned bold above?
To clarify..
1808...61
1809.. 63
1811..64
1812..58+
1822..62
1825..60
On further inspection, based on percieved luster...i really ought switch the 1809 and 1822..
1809..62
1822..63
Now i cant wait to find out the results!
I accept the offer to make comments on the coins BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY IN HECK I SHOULD HAVE ANY CHANCE OF CORRECTLY GUESSING THE ORDER!!
The OP has given us an extremely difficult test. When it ends and before he gives the answers I will "pick apart" each coin and give my opinions as you all have done so I can make a fool of myself.
To make this more educational for me and all posters...please go back and give your reason for each grade as some of you have already done. Something like I do below with a fictional coin. No need to be as detailed but just posting AU or MS-64 without writing what you saw to get that grade is not much fun.
Coin: 1832 Cap Bust
Luster: Very attractive, fully original white with hints of gold over the entire surface tending a little darker on the reverse toward the rims. Large die radials behind the stars = 64 to 70 range.
Hairlines: I see a few in a very tiny patch in the left field on the reverse also a few scattered on the obverse cheek = 63 to 65 range.
Marks: Nothing big, clean cheek, some scattered in the hair plus a very small cluster of tiny hits on the reverse mixed with the hairlines. Otherwise clean fields w/o straining to find a problem = 63 to 65 range.
Strike: Strong except for a flat over the eagle's eye and tops of left wing tips. Flat hair curls yet all the flat areas are original and w/o friction. A different color luster on the flats with no signs of friction (gray with microscopic random hairlines). Normal for the series = 64 to 65 range.
Eye Appeal: Very pleasing, exceptional for a coin in this series = 65 to 69 range.
No rim nicks, scratches and nothing that pops out except the coin's beauty. I'll give this a 64 + as I think that small patch in the reverse field and the few on the cheek may keep it out of the 65 grade. However, I should price it as a 65.
Lance,
I don't know if I will remember to come back and make any guesses, but can I at least just say, those are all SWEEETTTT!!!! and droolworthy!
Nice!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I agree with a lot of you, this group of CBH's is a very, very difficult to grade group from these incredible images. My guesses were just that, guesses. I am more than likely way off. I do appreciate you @lkeigwin for your generous giveaway and what will surely be an education post. Your images are always amazing and of subject coins that I wish someday to get a chance to image myself. So thank you very much for this fun and generous opportunity.
I'll leave it to the experts but I will say they are just gorgeous Lance.
Coin 1 - AU58 - Obverse -Light rub on hair, cap, stars, clasp, some weak strike in letters on Liberty, light marks on cheek
and chest
Reverse - Light rub on top eagle feathers, eagle head, some weak struck letters in motto, believe coin
has been dipped.
Coin 6 - MS60 - Obverse -Flat hair below liberty, cap, stars, marks on cheek, nose and the field
Reverse - Rubs on eagle feathers, scratch on shield
Coin 4 -MS62+ -Obverse -Weakly struck hair, stars, clasp. Scratches in the field, marks on the cheek, nose and chest.
Reverse -Light friction rub on top of wings, marks and light scratches in the fields.
Coin 2 - MS63 -Obverse -has light scratches and marks on cheek, flat hair.
Reverse -has light scratches and marks in the fields, right eagle feathers weakly struck
Coin 3 - MS64 -Obverse -Nicely struck well defined hair, stars, has a very light mark on cheek and very light scratch on chest.
Reverse -Nicely struck reverse, a little light on the right feather wing. Beautiful toning on coin.
Coin 5 -MS64+ -Obverse -Nicely struck coin, strong stars, lettering, clasp, cap. Fields look nice and clean. Clean cheek with
a very little mark that doesn't distract from the beauty of this coin. Coin has nice rims. Hair is a
little flat which I believe keeps it from a 65.
Reverse -Strong strike on letters, well defined eagle head and wings, nice shield without any distractions.
Nice clean fields and nice rims. Beautiful coin!
Congrats on 10 years. June 1st of this year will mark my 10th anniversary but there were a few years I was not really on so I'm not sure if it counts.
I will attempt to grade the Halves, but keep in mind I've never even as much as held a capped bust half so if I am really clueless that's why. Don't laugh at me too much, lol.
I didn't read the other comments so it wouldn't cloud my judgement.
Coin #1: 58. I see some marks on the neck and some weakness of the shield.
Coin #2: 62. It looks third best out of the coins, technically, to me (by technically I am talking about condition not eye appeal)
Coin #3: 60. Has more bag marks than the others.
Coin #4: 61. Held back by the bag mark over the eagles head
Coin #5: 63. I see only one small bag mark and the reverse fields are spectacular.
Coin #6. This one threw me. The toning is somewhat dark and distracting, but looking at it closer I don't see a single technical flaw at all, so I think it is MS64.
Congrats on 10 years Lance. Here are my views on each. Of course if I saw them in hand I might change my mind....
Coin 1 MS 61, subtle rub on the high points on each side - clasp/hair obv, shield rev, but probably considered MS (the more I think about it)
Coin 2 MS62. Reduced luster on obv, possibly some hairlines
Coin 3 MS64. Luster all there with no reductions on devices, no rub, minimal marks
Coin 4 AU58+. Just a hint of rub over the high points. + for stunning eye appeal
Coin 5 MS63+. Nick on chest obv., possible hairline scratch(es) right field obv., black spot, scratches below Pluribus in the field, otherwise a 64 so I gave it the plus
Coin 6 MS 62. Double profile, very nice. Chatter in right field obverse, reduced luster on devices on both sides
4,1,2,6,3,5 thx
The "experts" all started as non-experts. I'll guarantee that this would be difficult for any "expert" to do with the coins much less an image. That's why we see upgrades, downgrades, and the same grades when coins are resubmitted or sent to a different TPGS.
Take a stab, the prize is worth an incorrect guess. There are no "experts" here.
Congratulations on ten years!! You always post nice coins!
1808, au58, small neck marks, hair curl wear
1812, au58+, slight wear on wing tips, hair curls
1809, ms61, luster breaks on reverse
1825, ms62+, muted darker tone, obverse device a bit dirty
1822, ms63, nothing noteworthy, maybe a little flat for the grade
1811, ms64, beautiful coin
Thanks,
Freddie
From lowest to highest:
Coin 6: 1825 - AU58
Coin 4: 1812 - AU58+
Coin 2: 1809 - MS62
Coin 3: 1811 - MS63
Coin 1: 1808 - MS64
Coin 5: 1822 - MS64+
Coin 1 - 1808 - MS64
I'm sure this coin caught a 64 for being a nicely struck 1808, despite wear at the ear, bust, clasp, and on reverse, you can see a majority of the original skin is present and isn't heavily gouged or worn. Lack of wear on STATES and PLURIBUS, which are typically poorly struck, are beautifully solid. Obverse stars are in good shape despite being asymmetrical and non-uniform, are typical of this date and no cause for concern. However, logic dictates if you owned an 1808, it'd be a 64, and not only that, looks like other 1808 64's. What can be mistaken for circulation rub on her hair is just a weaker area, or cabinet wear. If it weren't being judged as an 1808 cbh, it'd probably catch a 62+.
Coin 2 - 1809 - MS62
The die clashes in STATES belie the quality of this coin. From the folds of her Phyrgian cap to the lack of wear on her bust, face, clasp, ear and hair, and a solid strong eagle, it's a solid coin. It would've graded higher MS had it not been for the rim on the reverse, losing 40-50% of the dentils. Although not caused by wear and from an uncentered strike, it keeps it's MS but not enough for higher than 62 or a plus grade.
Coin 3 - 1811 - MS63
It caught a little higher of a grade due to the nice toning, and the reverse dentils missing aren't as bad as coin 2, but remain not much of a problem. The issues with the die cause no issue with the grade for this date and coin. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a 64, especially since her clasp looks like how it's supposed to look, a star is visible in the reverse shield, as is the body of the eagle, but we must judge both sides of the coin.
Coin 4 - 1812 - AU58+
The nicks and dings, albeit minor, give us a circulation grade of AU58, but gets a plus grade for remaining an uncirculated strike. The flattened arrows on the reverse show wear. It may just be cabinet wear, but the small hits and dings show either from a bag or something else very very early in the coin's history. It was maybe never even used in circulation, but if it came from a bag, it surely bounced around a bit. The coin itself might be MS, and graded awhile ago, keeping it at the highest AU achievable.
Coin 5 - 1822 - MS64+
Despite the common die wear on STATES/PLURIBUS, the outline and feathers and feet of the eagle remain sound. The shield is unmolested. Only one obverse star shows wear. I was tempted to say 63 right out the gate. The luster and lack of problems suggest it may be the nicest coin of the lot, but grading the 1808 as an 1808, deserves a 64.
Coin 6 - 1825 - AU58
Despite its beauty, we see a lot of flattened obverse stars and flat arrowheads on reverse. Her hair and swirling locks would be in better shape by 1825 if this was above AU. It holds an uncirculated strike but the nicks in the shield, wear on eagles left wing (our right), precludes it from catching an MS grade. Here is where we see dentil loss from wear. The stars and arrows and wing alone preclude it from MS.
I think I'm pretty close
...but plus grades always get me.
Might be far out in left field.. where grades on these sometimes seem to be.
Thanks for the chance! Pretty coins!
Congrats btw!
Order - Low to High what PCGS Graded coin
Coin 6 AU-58 - The wear is more than a 58 should show, but holds the 58 level because of eye appeal. I zeroed in on the reverse where the eagles feathers almost melt into the top of the shield.
Coin 4 AU-58+ - very weak and uneven strike. What appears to be more wear in hair is a product of weak strike. Still AU but excellent eye appeal gives it a +
Coin 1 MS-61 - very very weak strike. has nice luster though.
Coin 2 MS-62 - this is an AU-62. wear is seen in hair and middle feathers of eagle (cabinet friction?)
Coin 3 MS-63+ - Not as good a strike as Coin 5, might have been dipped a bit too much. luster seems a bit muted.
Coin 5 MS-64 - Appears to have the best luster. Nice even strike, minimal marks in fields and devices.
Thanks for the contest!
Edit - Changed grades and order when I saw the lowest grade was not a 55 but a 58. Sorry!
Lance...you continue to be one of my favorite posters
on this forum. Your civility and the knowledge you
bring to this site is always appreciated. It is exercises
like this contest that bring more people to our hobby.
Thank you !
R.I.P. Bear
Grade Order: 1809 (#2), 1812 (#4), 1808 (#1), 1822 (#5), 1811 (#3), 1825 (#6).
1808: MS62+. I don’t see any wear. Looks to be retoning, but has indications of luster in photos. Weak detail.
1809: AU58. Really pretty coin with the slightest of wear.
1811: MS64. Wow.
1812: AU58+. Ditto the 1809, but the toning gives it the plus.
1822: MS63. What is not to like? I do not think that is wear on the top curl.
1825: MS64. Despite the toning, I do not see circulation. I could be way wrong on this one….
Thanks for the contest. I'll read the other entries now.
1 55 lite wear but nice
4 58+ just a light touch rub
6 62 what a doubled profile.
2 63 great looking coin
3 64 great luster and toning and what die cracks on reverse!
5 65 luser…mmmm
10 years...sweet!!
Thanks
Results to be announced tomorrow afternoon...
Lance.
Well said and I concur.
Lowest to Highest (by coin #): 2, 4, 1, 3, 5, and 6
Coin #1 - 1808 MS 61 (or more aptly AU61) - This is a difficult one for me, and I am conflicted. I debated calling this AU58 at first. The coin appears to have light rub on the high points (and especially the hair and shield); however, I think some of what I am perceiving as rub may also be due to/exacerbated by weakness of strike in the central details of the coin. The surfaces are clean and devoid of any significant abrasions, and there appears to be sufficient luster to push this into a low end mint state holder in spite of any rub (which would likely be written off as cabinet friction) and strike limitations. This is one I would really want to rotate in hand.
Coin #2 -1809 AU58 - The coin has light rub on the high points and the obverse luster looks slightly flat.
Coin #3 - 1811 MS61 - The coin has nice luster and clean surfaces and would have claims to choice BU except for what I perceive to be light rub. The fresh dip/retoned look is also limiting for me. I think it is a technical AU58 that is market graded to low MS.
Coin #4 - 1812 AU 58+ - Gem AU with obvious rub but that is otherwise oh so close to mint state.
Coin #5 - 1822 MS 63 - I see absolutely no friction, the surfaces are clean/choice, and the strike is excellent. A couple of light marks on the bust and a couple of toning spots limit the grade IMHO.
Coin #6 - 1825 MS64+ - This coin has it all going for it: luster, originality, clean gem surfaces, a good strike and eye appeal. I think the toning spot/streaks on the obverse and marks on the shield in the reverse kept this out of a MS65 holder.
ttt
Check out how many of us had the 1811 at 64....:)
Tells you a little something about that coin Lance!!
WOW!! That was fun and eye opening. I didn't get one correct and I really screwed the pooch on that 1825. Just goes to show you, I need to look at a LOT more of these Bust Half Dollars.
Thank you again for the fun and challenging contest.
Truly spectacular @Vbowling and @cameonut2011! The plus grades were guessed correctly, by both of you? Even though it was not even required?? I was only able to accomplish that feat by looking at Lance's registry first. SWEET!
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The two plus graded coins were the creme de la creme and by far the most original of the group. The 1812 puts many MS coins to shame, but the rub jumped out to me. I felt it was deserving of the highest possible AU grade. The 1825 looks gemmy to me with a few unfortunate toning streaks. To be honest, had Lance not told us that there were no gem graded coins, I might have called it MS65. Both were my clear favorites (although I think all are attractive).
Congratulations to @Vbowling and thank you for the thoughtful contest. Happy 10th anniversary @lkeigwin ! I have enjoyed your posts and have learned a lot from your posts through the years.
Interesting results, congrats to Vbowling!
Wonderful contest. Wonderful compilation of results.
You are an authentic star. I wish I had your eye.
Thank you for your participation.
Lance.