Drapery, No Drapery
Here are a couple of subtypes within the large general type of the Liberty Seated, No Arrows, No Motto (for the quarter, half dollar and silver dollar) coinage, the No Drapery and Draper type coins.
The No Drapery types were the original artwork by Christian Gobrecht. To my eye these coins were much attractive than the With Drapery coins which followed them. The With Drapery types were the work of Robert Ball Hughes.
Here are examples of each type shown on the quarter:
No Drapery
With Drapery
The most obvious difference is the extra fold of cloth that comes down from Ms. Liberty’s elbow. This gives the type its name, but if you look at other details you will see subtle differences. The “LIBERTY” ribbon across the shield is slightly cured on the No Drapery type while it is straight on the With Drapery design. The rock upon which Ms. Liberty sits is also slightly different.
Now to confuse you a little more, here is a No Drapery Half Dollar and a With Drapery Half Dollar.
No Drapery - This is a scarce type coin that was issued for only part of the year in 1839.
With Drapery
There are fewer differences between these two designs. The cloth that hangs from Ms. Liberty's elbow is not much different, and once more the rock has a slightly different shape.
These subtle types are something only advanced type collectors usually add to their sets. There are also "partial drapery" coins, but those are the result of die clashes and not a real design change.
We can look at more coins if you like. The differences in the designs between the half dime and dime are more dramatic.
Comments
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Do you know if anyone recognizes "Partial Drapery" coins?
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The "partial Drapery" 1838 dime is listed in The Red Book, but I have never seen it listed as a type coin. It shouldn't be listed as a type coin because it's only a die state, not a design change.
I bid on one a couple times at auction, but it always went for too much money.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?1 -
Here are the Drapery and No Drapery hall dimes and dimes.
Half dime, No Drapery
Half Dime, Drapery
Dime, No Drapery
Dime, Drapery
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?6 -
Nice write up Bill. I prefer the No Drapery design also. Just looks better.
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That is a gorgeous '60-O half you have there, @BillJones .
My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.0 -
Yeah, particularly on the half-dime and dime, poor Miss Liberty went from feminine to linebacker arms.
The "winner" for me has always been the no-stars type. They look so clean and un-encumbered without the stars.
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@TommyType said:
Yeah, particularly on the half-dime and dime, poor Miss Liberty went from feminine to linebacker arms.The "winner" for me has always been the no-stars type. They look so clean and un-encumbered without the stars.
I agree. The artwork on the half dime and dime really went down in my opinion.
Here are the No Stars Types.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?5 -
I'd prefer a "no prongs" type with visible edge.
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This is a very educational thread. Thanks to the OP and all who posted.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon0 -
The 'weightlifter arms' ruined them for me... just not an artful presentation... Cheers, RickO
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I have an 1839 No Drapery seated half dollar that has a clash where the drapery normally resides. As a result it was slabbed by PCGS as AU53 in a with drapery holder. I purchased it from a well known coin dealer for the price of a 39 with drapery. I have always kept it in the original incorrect holder with the dealer's sticker and price still on the slab. The ND version is probably worth about 10 times what I paid for the incorrectly attributed WD version. Cherry picks are still out there, even from advanced dealers, if you know what you are looking for.
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I like the no stars version better as well. It will be really difficult to let go of my no stars dime...but I am trying to work out a deal.
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@oih82w8 said:
I like the no stars version better as well. It will be really difficult to let go of my no stars dime...but I am trying to work out a deal.The No Stars Dime is a very tough coin, far harder to find in the higher circulated and Mint State grades, than the half dime.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?1 -
Pretty awesome to illustrate it with your own photos of your own coins!
Here are the more detailed Half Dime hub changes, side by side for easier comparison.
But I cheated by using the amazing pro photos @PCGSPhoto of high end proofs at PCGS CoinFacts.
Click on photos once or twice to zoom in for full details!
1837 no stars vs. 1840 no drapery - Ms. Liberty device looks the same
1840 no drapery vs. 1843 drapery (fingers, rock, shield, arm widths, etc. are also different)
1843 drapery flat base vs. 1858 wavy base (little finger on pole is also different)
1858 Hughes wavy base line stars vs. 1859 Paquet hollow star centers
1859 Paquet hollow stars vs. 1860 Hughes legendThe 1860 Hughes base is flat, so we can compare it to the 1843 (flat) and the 1857 (wavy).
Neither is an exact match (compare the gown folds left of pole).
1843 flat base vs. 1860 flat base
1858 wavy base vs. 1860 flat base7 -
.
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Beautiful coins Bill Jones - Outstanding patina and toning on just about every single one.
Really nice... Thanks for sharingBuying and Selling
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Cool old thread 👍🏻
Here’s my Seated Liberty Half Dollar coins that show the different types
Mr_Spud
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@samscoinsheavymetal said:
Beautiful coins Bill Jones - Outstanding patina and toning on just about every single one.
Really nice... Thanks for sharingUnfortunately those aren’t mine.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?0 -
@BillJones said:
>
Your posts withstand the test of time0 -
Bill, what do you think of the anachronistic 1841 No Drapery Dime, which descended from a hub deliberately made that way and is not the result of an over polished With Drapery die? My theory is that Gobrecht was appalled by the Hughes corruption of his original No Drapery design, and so he created a new Pattern No Drapery hub to try to bring back his original concept. Of course that never happened.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.0 -
Why did the mint go from no drapery to drapery?
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@4Redisin said:
Part Drape coins were mentioned way up the thread. I assume it is the result of die polishing like the 3-leg nickel.I thought that the “partial drapery” was from a clash mark.
@skier07 said:
Why did the mint go from no drapery to drapery?My guess is they thought the modified design would increase the useful life of the dies.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?1 -
It can be a combination of the two.
After a clash, some lapping or "polishing" may be employed to remove the clash marks.
But part of the design may get removed in the process.2 -
@skier07 said:
Why did the mint go from no drapery to drapery?Grok says:
"The Seated Liberty half dollar design changed from "no drapery" to "with drapery" in 1840 due to aesthetic and practical reasons. The original "no drapery" design, introduced in 1839, featured a cleaner, more minimalist look with Liberty's figure lacking additional cloth at the elbow. However, this design was criticized for its stark appearance and perceived lack of artistic depth. Chief Engraver Christian Gobrecht modified the design by adding drapery to Liberty’s arm, enhancing the visual complexity and aligning it more closely with the neoclassical style popular at the time. The change also helped improve the coin’s strike quality, as the added details aided in metal flow during minting, reducing wear on dies and improving overall production consistency."
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ND was a superior design.
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I have never bought the "better strike" BS. @Morgan White . Except with T-1 dimes which must have had a flaw with some of the original dies (construction not design on) earlier the coin the better the asthetics. My oipinion. James
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