No! Without meaningful stable standards, grading is meaningless. Anyone attempting to value a coin based on unstable "grades" will fail. As always, the good ones buy the coin not the holder.
So basically what we are saying is TPG's don't really grade coins? Especially those at the high end? They just shuffle grades around as to keep the population report and prices stable? Oh man this whole damn world is off it's rocker. lol
If I look at a coin with my eyes and then under a 7X scope and cannot find any imperfection it is a 70! If I can find one or two miniscule with a little searching it is a 69. That goes for ANY COIN or BULLION, ANY AGE, ANY DENOMINATION, and ANY COUNTRY. If the coin happens to be a 1909-S/Horiz S, I don't care...it's a 69! In the case of copper, it cannot have any spots for that grade.
@blitzdude said: "So basically what we are saying is TPG's don't really grade coins? Especially those at the high end? They just shuffle grades around as to keep the population report and prices stable? Oh man this whole damn world is off it's rocker. lol
I looked but I did not find anything in this thread to suggest this. Please help me out. Will you please quote the post above so I can read it? THANKS!
@keets said: Stewart will tell you that his MS69 is the finest wheatback, and those who have seen it in person would probably agree. Most people don't know that it was from a roll that made most of the 68's and his coin went 69 on the first try. It is just that phenomenal of a coin. I suspect that is not what the 1909 is now a 69, if true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know what it looks like or if it exists.
just so I understand --- you haven't seen it and don't know what it looks like, but you doubt it exists and if it does it isn't a 69 and has been graded before???
Nah, you misunderstand. Yes I have seen Stewart's 1919 of a couple of occasions and it is the real deal. I questioned whether or not a 1909 really existed in MS69, and if read it all you would see that I found out it apparently was in input error and won't be in the pops next week.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Eye appeal can add a point to a grade, and that 68+ sure looks lovely! No offence intended to the owner of the $150 coin above in 67. It is in a different orbit than the 68+.
None taken. I like my coin even though it has a hit on the temple that looks "as made" and one very light spot of verdigris in front of the chin. Otherwise, it has minimal marks observable under 5x glass, and a very nice strike and color. I'm not saying I'm not still looking for a better one, because I am always looking.
The ms68+ 43-d was for sale with Heritage as a 68. I bid $2000. It sold for $4000ish and a month later or so was on Angel Dees sight as a 68+ for $16K or something like that (and quickly sold).
Same kind of crap going on with common stamps. Condition, condition, condition! Stuff we bought as discount postage (10%+ back of face value) to use for mailing packages is now worth hundreds of dollars when graded "right."
Speaking of stamps, what were those large stamp boards that used to hang in the post office called? They were in the shape of a shield or something like that.
AllCoins, I feel your pain ... got to have a set of coconuts to out bid some of the upgraders !!!
no, I understand perfectly. the cut/paste started talking about the Blay coin and ended talking about the 1909 --- "I suspect that is not what the 1909 is now a 69, if true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know what it looks like or if it exists."
no, I understand perfectly. the cut/paste started talking about the Blay coin and ended talking about the 1909 --- "I suspect that is not what the 1909 is now a 69, if true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know what it looks like or if it exists."
I don't know what cut/paste you are referring to, but yes I meant what I said. If was unclear:
I've seen the Blay coin and understand why it was graded 69 and it was in a roll of 68's.
I suspected the 1909 in MS69 was not from a roll of 68's,
"if true," as in whether the pop report is correct (which I found out later is was not)
so no I haven't seen it because it doesn't exist.
I didn't say it couldn't exist, just that I doubted a monster roll of 1909's that would produce a dozen 68's and a 69, was actually found.
So what's your point, or are you just being obtuse again?
I didn't say it couldn't exist, just that I doubted a monster roll of 1909's that would produce a dozen 68's and a 69, was actually found.?
Are you sure about that? Tens of thousands of rolls out there that have never been cracked let alone sent into a TPG service.
So you know about 10K original rolls of 1909 Lincoln cents that have never been opened and searched. I'm curious, Are you a coin dealer? How many of these rolls have you actually see? Do you own any?
@blitzdude said: "So basically what we are saying is TPG's don't really grade coins? Especially those at the high end? They just shuffle grades around as to keep the population report and prices stable? Oh man this whole damn world is off it's rocker. lol"
As I wrote above: I looked but I did not find anything in this thread to suggest this. Please help me out. Will you please quote the post above so I can read it? THANKS!
Are you going to answer this for me? It will save me the time from looking through the thread again. Thanks!
Non believers: every one remembers the 2 rolls of 39D 10C that produced multiple MS68FB and MULTIPLE MS69's. Yes, there was a monster of roll of 1909 1C.
There has also been another MS69 1C many years ago-which was forced to be downgraded after spotting and some monkey stuff happened.
Recently a roll of 09VDB surfaced and there are many MS67+ RD being made. Ditto for a earlier date Washington Quarter which the MS68 is rapidly rising on. Its not gradeflation-it is real killer coins.
I didn't say it couldn't exist, just that I doubted a monster roll of 1909's that would produce a dozen 68's and a 69, was actually found.?
Are you sure about that? Tens of thousands of rolls out there that have never been cracked let alone sent into a TPG service.
So you know about 10K original rolls of 1909 Lincoln cents that have never been opened and searched. I'm curious, Are you a coin dealer? How many of these rolls have you actually see? Do you own any?
@blitzdude said: "So basically what we are saying is TPG's don't really grade coins? Especially those at the high end? They just shuffle grades around as to keep the population report and prices stable? Oh man this whole damn world is off it's rocker. lol"
As I wrote above: I looked but I did not find anything in this thread to suggest this. Please help me out. Will you please quote the post above so I can read it? THANKS!
Are you going to answer this for me? It will save me the time from looking through the thread again. Thanks!
Mr. Insider2 you take me way to literally. Tens of thousands of uncracked Wheatie rolls wasn't specifically referring to the year 1909.
As for TPG grade/pop/value comment these were questions. Clearly the OP is complaining about other peoples coins being graded too high (in his opinion}, crowding the population report (in his opinion} and dropping the value of HIS coins. I was asking questions not making a statement.
On a personal note I have learned a lot from your posts in my short time here and I am grateful for that opportunity. Your also a straight shooter (outside of your political views) unlike some of these other clowns, that I respect.
@blitzdude said: "Mr. Insider2 you take me way to literally. Tens of thousands of uncracked Wheatie rolls wasn't specifically referring to the year 1909."
Thanks for your comments. I was not referring to 1909 either. I really don't think there are 10K rolls of never opened Lincoln cents left. I'd bet there are not even 5k! I will agree that plenty of folks have put original rolls away and a majority of them are deteriorating by the day.
It's not that I don't believe it could happen, it's just that it is more likely that it will not happen, 68,69,70 or whatever you want to give it, in the quality and way of the 1919 MS69. Many of the coins at the level we are talking that really matter, trade on their merits regardless of whatever number you want to put on them.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Those of us who actually do send many coins in for grading have seen significant tightening over the last year.
Hope so
Yes. If it'll STAY that way.
It doesn’t matter if it does unless PCGS buys back all of the overgraded stuff it churned out in the few years immediately prior. What are the odds that is going to happen when the last fiscal quarter saw $70k of operating income after taxes? PCGS literally cannot afford to go back at this point. In the next few years, we will all begin to relish the “conservative old blue holders” much like the OGH and rattler.
What are your thoughts on this. In a society heading towards a cashless economy, the only motivation for the mint to produce change will be to satisfy the coin collectors who are always looking for the perfect specimen. With laser guided precision they can create dies that are 70's everytime. Or 69, 68 67 66, and 65. At that point, the mints will begin selling coins at different rates to speculators who are hoping that future demand from those who missed the release will gain them a profit. Sounds pretty boring doesnt it. Consider how we, as a hobby are moving in that direction. The states quarters were to reinvigorate the intrest of collectors. Then it turned into the parks series. I see breast cancer awareness is this month. I seen the baseball card hobby turn to crap using this same model. More and more subsets and inserts, and on and on untill the general interest of getting into the hobby is dead. Including the interest of hard to find cards that were valuable before the glut that are now losing value like crazy. Let me make this more personal. I inherited the collections of my Dad and his Mom, who was a collector while some of the great coins we see posted were actually circulating still. I have 2 1909 s VDB's, 2 3 legged buffalo nickles, a 22 no d wheat penny, and a whole bunch of Morgan's that range from WOW to so so, but have all been cared for since my family found them. And not one of them has been professionally graded. But I'm considering doing it and then getting out, if half the things I've read about in this post are true. That's how a hobby dies.
I notice you disagree with the following post I wrote. Please have the courtesy to explain what you disagree with or please remove your "NON OPINION." AFAIK, this is a place where we come to share information and discuss our coins and numismatics in general. Please share something for us to read. Thanks in advance.
@Insider2 said: "IMO, there actually are standards. Unfortunately they are not universal and are also not followed.
The easiest grade to illustrate this fact is MS/PR-70. There cannot be any rational argument to "Perfect." The only things that can get a less than perfect coin into a holder as an MS/PR-70 are these:
An imperfection is missed.
An imperfection is ignored.
An imperfection develops after being graded.
The standard is changed (lowered).
I welcome any additions to this list.
There are written and photographic attempts to show what the standards are for each grade. In all cases, over time they have become more liberal (#4). Aside from that, a TPGS customer has no control over points #1 to #3."
There is no 1909 s s/s horizontal in Ms 69red . It is a misprint
If Miss Specialist thinks a 1935 Lincoln Cent will go for moon money
She needs some medication. What about the CAC sticker ?
A 1935 Lincoln Cent in MS 68 red use to bring $ 10,000 in auction
Now it will only bring 3 - $ 4,000 in auction. So my guess is a Ms 68+ will bring $ 10,000
as a pop 1
A 1935 in Ms 67 red is only worth less than $ 100 This is called Deflation
A 1935 Lincoln Cent , a 1943 D Lincoln Cent are as common as dirt
Anyone Paying moon money for these coins is a SUCKER plain and simple
I would also say there is a good chance the auction will be shilled.
Let us remember the 1914 D in Ms 66+ red at $ 150,000
Hmmmm. Stewart must want the 1935 - he’s talking it down. As opposed to the 1958...where it was obviously either his coin or a price setting example for his coin.
I think that some are not in favor that the coin they own did not upgrade but someone else did get an upgrade.
My question is why was the coin graded lower in the first place or did standards change?
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
I have found that there is significant headroom between 67 an 70. Or one might even say between 66 and 70. When we quantify the micro-dot and micro scratch differences between 67 and 70, there has to be a reasonable interpolation for 68 and 69. I have a few PR67 IHC PR coins that vary dramatically in quality. All better than 66, but 67 seems to be the glass ceiling at this point in time. I have found it tough to even get a + on a 67 when submitted with a 67 that is not nearly as nice. I think this might be more a matter of time than gradeflation. Water alway seeks an uncontivertible level.
Can't comment on the merits of that coin w/o seeing it in person but sure is pretty!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
Why should we believe you? The last time you posted such, you admitted later that you wanted the coin and it was fair game to talk it down. I can no longer take what you say at face value - I have to view it in that light.
Tradedollarnut - the 1935 is being
auctioned by Laura. I down played a
1925 D Lincoln . There is a big difference
between the dates.Anyone paying
moon money for a 1935 Lincoln cent is a sucker.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Tradedollarnut - the 1935 is being
auctioned by Laura. I down played a
1925 D Lincoln . There is a big difference
between the dates.Anyone paying
moon money for a 1935 Lincoln cent is a sucker.
The difference in the date and value is immaterial to TDN's point.
Comments
RE: "Everyone ok with this?"
No! Without meaningful stable standards, grading is meaningless. Anyone attempting to value a coin based on unstable "grades" will fail. As always, the good ones buy the coin not the holder.
So basically what we are saying is TPG's don't really grade coins? Especially those at the high end? They just shuffle grades around as to keep the population report and prices stable? Oh man this whole damn world is off it's rocker. lol
If I look at a coin with my eyes and then under a 7X scope and cannot find any imperfection it is a 70! If I can find one or two miniscule with a little searching it is a 69. That goes for ANY COIN or BULLION, ANY AGE, ANY DENOMINATION, and ANY COUNTRY. If the coin happens to be a 1909-S/Horiz S, I don't care...it's a 69! In the case of copper, it cannot have any spots for that grade.
@blitzdude said: "So basically what we are saying is TPG's don't really grade coins? Especially those at the high end? They just shuffle grades around as to keep the population report and prices stable? Oh man this whole damn world is off it's rocker. lol
I looked but I did not find anything in this thread to suggest this. Please help me out. Will you please quote the post above so I can read it? THANKS!
Yes. If it'll STAY that way.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Since it has been mentioned... here's a pic for those who haven't seen the best wheat cent out there... old green holder too!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I always look at the rims first. Notice how rough the rim is on the '35? Reverse bottom.
Smitten with DBLCs.
That's SB's gem, alright! Never get tired of seeing it.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Nah, you misunderstand. Yes I have seen Stewart's 1919 of a couple of occasions and it is the real deal. I questioned whether or not a 1909 really existed in MS69, and if read it all you would see that I found out it apparently was in input error and won't be in the pops next week.
None taken. I like my coin even though it has a hit on the temple that looks "as made" and one very light spot of verdigris in front of the chin. Otherwise, it has minimal marks observable under 5x glass, and a very nice strike and color. I'm not saying I'm not still looking for a better one, because I am always looking.
Same kind of crap going on with common stamps. Condition, condition, condition! Stuff we bought as discount postage (10%+ back of face value) to use for mailing packages is now worth hundreds of dollars when graded "right."
Speaking of stamps, what were those large stamp boards that used to hang in the post office called? They were in the shape of a shield or something like that.
AllCoins, I feel your pain ... got to have a set of coconuts to out bid some of the upgraders !!!
Nah, you misunderstand.
no, I understand perfectly. the cut/paste started talking about the Blay coin and ended talking about the 1909 --- "I suspect that is not what the 1909 is now a 69, if true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know what it looks like or if it exists."
What's the difference between a input error and a correct grade covered by a grade guarantee?
A hastier phone call?
I don't know what cut/paste you are referring to, but yes I meant what I said. If was unclear:
I didn't say it couldn't exist, just that I doubted a monster roll of 1909's that would produce a dozen 68's and a 69, was actually found.
So what's your point, or are you just being obtuse again?
Are you sure about that? Tens of thousands of rolls out there that have never been cracked let alone sent into a TPG service.
Ok blitzdude, get to crackin'. I'm more of a doubter than a believer. Why don't you go off and play with Keetz somewhere?
So you know about 10K original rolls of 1909 Lincoln cents that have never been opened and searched. I'm curious, Are you a coin dealer? How many of these rolls have you actually see? Do you own any?
As I wrote above: I looked but I did not find anything in this thread to suggest this. Please help me out. Will you please quote the post above so I can read it? THANKS!
Are you going to answer this for me? It will save me the time from looking through the thread again. Thanks!
Please play nice.
I'm trying to get @blitzdude to back-up some of his informative posts.
Non believers: every one remembers the 2 rolls of 39D 10C that produced multiple MS68FB and MULTIPLE MS69's. Yes, there was a monster of roll of 1909 1C.
There has also been another MS69 1C many years ago-which was forced to be downgraded after spotting and some monkey stuff happened.
Recently a roll of 09VDB surfaced and there are many MS67+ RD being made. Ditto for a earlier date Washington Quarter which the MS68 is rapidly rising on. Its not gradeflation-it is real killer coins.
Mr. Insider2 you take me way to literally. Tens of thousands of uncracked Wheatie rolls wasn't specifically referring to the year 1909.
As for TPG grade/pop/value comment these were questions. Clearly the OP is complaining about other peoples coins being graded too high (in his opinion}, crowding the population report (in his opinion} and dropping the value of HIS coins. I was asking questions not making a statement.
On a personal note I have learned a lot from your posts in my short time here and I am grateful for that opportunity. Your also a straight shooter (outside of your political views) unlike some of these other clowns, that I respect.
@blitzdude said: "Mr. Insider2 you take me way to literally. Tens of thousands of uncracked Wheatie rolls wasn't specifically referring to the year 1909."
Thanks for your comments. I was not referring to 1909 either. I really don't think there are 10K rolls of never opened Lincoln cents left. I'd bet there are not even 5k! I will agree that plenty of folks have put original rolls away and a majority of them are deteriorating by the day.
It's not that I don't believe it could happen, it's just that it is more likely that it will not happen, 68,69,70 or whatever you want to give it, in the quality and way of the 1919 MS69. Many of the coins at the level we are talking that really matter, trade on their merits regardless of whatever number you want to put on them.
Well Lincoln red pcgs ms67+ coins just got cheaper....
It doesn’t matter if it does unless PCGS buys back all of the overgraded stuff it churned out in the few years immediately prior. What are the odds that is going to happen when the last fiscal quarter saw $70k of operating income after taxes? PCGS literally cannot afford to go back at this point. In the next few years, we will all begin to relish the “conservative old blue holders” much like the OGH and rattler.
What are your thoughts on this. In a society heading towards a cashless economy, the only motivation for the mint to produce change will be to satisfy the coin collectors who are always looking for the perfect specimen. With laser guided precision they can create dies that are 70's everytime. Or 69, 68 67 66, and 65. At that point, the mints will begin selling coins at different rates to speculators who are hoping that future demand from those who missed the release will gain them a profit. Sounds pretty boring doesnt it. Consider how we, as a hobby are moving in that direction. The states quarters were to reinvigorate the intrest of collectors. Then it turned into the parks series. I see breast cancer awareness is this month. I seen the baseball card hobby turn to crap using this same model. More and more subsets and inserts, and on and on untill the general interest of getting into the hobby is dead. Including the interest of hard to find cards that were valuable before the glut that are now losing value like crazy. Let me make this more personal. I inherited the collections of my Dad and his Mom, who was a collector while some of the great coins we see posted were actually circulating still. I have 2 1909 s VDB's, 2 3 legged buffalo nickles, a 22 no d wheat penny, and a whole bunch of Morgan's that range from WOW to so so, but have all been cared for since my family found them. And not one of them has been professionally graded. But I'm considering doing it and then getting out, if half the things I've read about in this post are true. That's how a hobby dies.
@MarkInDavis
I notice you disagree with the following post I wrote. Please have the courtesy to explain what you disagree with or please remove your "NON OPINION." AFAIK, this is a place where we come to share information and discuss our coins and numismatics in general. Please share something for us to read. Thanks in advance.
@Insider2 said: "IMO, there actually are standards. Unfortunately they are not universal and are also not followed.
The easiest grade to illustrate this fact is MS/PR-70. There cannot be any rational argument to "Perfect." The only things that can get a less than perfect coin into a holder as an MS/PR-70 are these:
The standard is changed (lowered).
I welcome any additions to this list.
There are written and photographic attempts to show what the standards are for each grade. In all cases, over time they have become more liberal (#4). Aside from that, a TPGS customer has no control over points #1 to #3."
There is no 1909 s s/s horizontal in Ms 69red . It is a misprint
If Miss Specialist thinks a 1935 Lincoln Cent will go for moon money
She needs some medication. What about the CAC sticker ?
A 1935 Lincoln Cent in MS 68 red use to bring $ 10,000 in auction
Now it will only bring 3 - $ 4,000 in auction. So my guess is a Ms 68+ will bring $ 10,000
as a pop 1
A 1935 in Ms 67 red is only worth less than $ 100 This is called Deflation
A 1935 Lincoln Cent , a 1943 D Lincoln Cent are as common as dirt
Anyone Paying moon money for these coins is a SUCKER plain and simple
I would also say there is a good chance the auction will be shilled.
Let us remember the 1914 D in Ms 66+ red at $ 150,000
Stewart
Hmmmm. Stewart must want the 1935 - he’s talking it down. As opposed to the 1958...where it was obviously either his coin or a price setting example for his coin.
I think that some are not in favor that the coin they own did not upgrade but someone else did get an upgrade.
My question is why was the coin graded lower in the first place or did standards change?
I have found that there is significant headroom between 67 an 70. Or one might even say between 66 and 70. When we quantify the micro-dot and micro scratch differences between 67 and 70, there has to be a reasonable interpolation for 68 and 69. I have a few PR67 IHC PR coins that vary dramatically in quality. All better than 66, but 67 seems to be the glass ceiling at this point in time. I have found it tough to even get a + on a 67 when submitted with a 67 that is not nearly as nice. I think this might be more a matter of time than gradeflation. Water alway seeks an uncontivertible level.
OINK
Can't comment on the merits of that coin w/o seeing it in person but sure is pretty!
Tradedollarnut -why don’t you buy it , wait a year and sell it. I GURANTEEE you will lose money.
There are no Registry points for a 1935 Lincoln cent
Why would anyone buy a coin and have SUCKER tattooed on their forehead ?
Try finding a 26 s in full red and I will congratulate you
This 1935 Lincoln Cent is the perfect telemarketing coin to sell to some sorry a$$ sucker
Beware !
Why should we believe you? The last time you posted such, you admitted later that you wanted the coin and it was fair game to talk it down. I can no longer take what you say at face value - I have to view it in that light.
I like that 1935
The 1935 68+ CAC'd. Expect moon money to fly ...
This Thread just got me thinking about Dan Carr. The 1935 69 that almost was.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Tradedollarnut - the 1935 is being
auctioned by Laura. I down played a
1925 D Lincoln . There is a big difference
between the dates.Anyone paying
moon money for a 1935 Lincoln cent is a sucker.
Do tell!!
The difference in the date and value is immaterial to TDN's point.