Lincoln Wheat Gradeflation at PCGS another 69red and two 68+'s. Everyone ok with this?
DMWJR
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There is a 68+ 1935 coming up for auction. First I have notice that PCGS has entered into this territory so I checked the pops. Even more interesting is the listing of an MS69 1909 S over horizontal S. No pics on coinfacts, just that one one number in the pop report. I hate to see them stretch this series further. I thought 67+'s were getting a little edgy.
Doug
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The 1935 MS68+
Its been going on for a while. Used to be 66RD meant something. Now its just an average widget.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Is that in a RD or RB holder?
The more cynical part of me wonders sometimes whether the last several cycles of loosening and tightening were meant to cause confusion and destroy the 70 point scale so that a new scale (i.e. future revenue) can be forced on collectors. I hope I’m just being paranoid.
Like a fine wine....... the coins must be getting better with age.
OTOH, there are a half-trillion of them. There’s bound to be a few nice ones.
Hard to see that as a 68+ with the specks. It’s nice but I don’t see it.
If someone said there was an MS70 lincoln just over the edge of a cliff 100 halfwit collectors would run right off the edge looking for it in a second .
It's the fault of every numnut and or nimrod that sends the same coin in over and over looking for the "right" grade , how is that supposed to happen if they don't raise the upper bound?
68+ ?
I didn't realize, I have a few in my set too
PCGS has already done it with the Memorials, which I would say there is more of a case for and it probably caused some true market correction after the first pump ups. Does anyone remember the backlash on the PR70DC 1963? I do, and I was there when David Hall in person blew up the auctioning of that coin.
PCGS had been leaking out PR70's until just a few years ago creating a bubble most people knew was not representative of modern coins. These PR70's were bringing a thousand or more each, now after the floodgates are open, only $50, which is all a 2006 PR70DC is really worth - if in a holder because it costs money to get it holdered.
But now if there really is a 1909, a 111 year old coin which no doubt was already in a holder, can be bumped up to a 69? There may be room for another grading service in the market. NGC already occupies the role of "overgraded, but respected" slabs.
Stewart will tell you that his MS69 is the finest wheatback, and those who have seen it in person would probably agree. Most people don't know that it was from a roll that made most of the 68's and his coin went 69 on the first try. It is just that phenomenal of a coin. I suspect that is not what the 1909 is now a 69, if true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know what it looks like or if it exists.
Yes it is a beautiful coin and has more character than my mere 67 at least from the pictures if you like a little color on your Lincolns.
That 1935 Cent is very pretty, but if a Roosie had that many problems on the face......it would be a 66 or 65.
Just saying.
A MS68+RD?
Should not have carbon spots!
And shouldn't have a hit right on a focal point.
And probably should be red-brown, agreed?
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Gradeflation just keep on keeping on! I find it disgusting
While that is not MY personal MS-68, that IS a very exceptional coin! The eye appeal is maxed out as it cannot get much better. Since there is no longer a guarantee for spots (even for three miniscule [treat as tiny bag marks] that are not detracting) they become less important. Now we are down to one major hit. What is the value of the coin? 64, 65, 66, 67, 68? How many better exist? I don't go around looking for gem red Lincoln's anymore but the two posted here are the best I can remember in an image or in person.
I’m not saying the coin is not beautiful, because it is, but I hate to see them tear down the wheat cent market with never ending grades. I personally would like to have the first coin I addition to mine. But I am positive the owner and I wouldn’t be able to agree on a price. (I don’t know who owns it)
I think it is the nature of the game. I've been told that grading "must" evolve... as "we" learn more.
There ought to be a rule...coins of this caliber SHALL NOT leave PCGS without being TrueViewed.
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There are no 68s for the 09 s/s. So I would think it is either a fresh coin or an NGC crossover. Would like to see Stewart Blay weigh in on this, or any of the other moose wheat lincoln collectors/dealers.
Also possible the 69 09 s/s is a mechanical error
If I owned these beauties, especially considering what I would have to pay to own them, I would be constantly fretting over them as nature does its thing. Other alloys not so much.
While the consensus of 'opinions' certainly seem to support gradeflation, please remember, there are no standards - only general guidelines and the final number that goes on a slab is the result of opinions....So, your opinion of opinions is a compounding of non-standard evaluations that will result in a never ending discussion supported only by varying opinions. Will a new grading scale emerge? Maybe. However, it will never be an improvement over the current nebulous system until true standards are designed. Cheers, RickO
@ricko, I'm going to disagree to some extent. IMO, there actually are standards. Unfortunately they are not universal and are also not followed.
The easiest grade to illustrate this fact is MS/PR-70. There cannot be any rational argument to "Perfect." The only things that can get a less than perfect coin into a holder as an MS/PR-70 are these:
I welcome any additions to this list.
There are written and photographic attempts to show what the standards are for each grade. In all cases, over time they have become more liberal (#4). Aside from that, a TPGS customer has no control over points #1 to #3.
That is a very pretty Lincoln.
UNC 60
Choice 63
Gem 65, at least that's the way I remember it, anything higher was just grouped in the later grade.
Pretty soon there will be coins so nice that 70 will be the "old"60.
I don't know. I thought that there was a tacit agreement around here that grades were tightening.
Pete
A mech error 69 would have me calling to get a second and last chance
Provide the link to the auction ... I want to watch the drama unfold.
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I have seen the 1935 1C in MS68+ in hand. It has out of this world toning (including a toning dot or two). It probably will bring "moon money". Type collectors need it too. No gradeflation on this coin!
I have to say, I usually have to scratch my head on grades. This is a coin owned by Robec that could only muster MS64 (BN color class). To my eye this looks like an MS67. It almost looks a bit Matte Proof like (though no MPLs were minted in 1917).
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Would certainly fit nicely with a a set of MPL's. A very nice coin and one that will likely remain so.
I've been emailed and told that the 1909 in MS69 is an input error and it won't be on the pop report next week. Guess I just happened to look at the wrong time. I still stand on my position regarding 68+ grades for wheats. The one and only 69 is a magical coin to view, along with the other dozen 68's that came out of the same roll.
Well the 68+ Red used to be the same grade as yours.
It also appears on pcgscoinfacts.com as a 67 and 68 if you look at all the Red photos. If not for the toning it may have been difficult to match up in different grades.
pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=2641
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I've also been told that a 43-D has been made on the first try in 68+. It's on coinfacts and it looks to be perfect. I didn't know it had been made either.
You are being optimistic.
So if a coin comes into a TPG worthy of the grade are you saying they should nock it down a few points so it doesn't disrupt the prices at the top?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Here is what I think is happening as it has been going on for a very long time. Many here were not around in the "Stone Age" when MS-65 was the top grade. Gradually some MS-66's were "made" after the grades above 65 and lower than 70 were added. There always was a 70 it's just that the grade was never used even though the mint was cranking out truly perfect coins on occasion! Over time, more and more coins were graded above MS-65. Eventually, some 69's were graded but no TPGS would touch the 70 grade. Then they did.
Now, let's think about today. Take a silver eagle graded 70 that is actually perfect. News flash, for all those years decades before there were a few common coins (mostly Proofs) that were just as perfect but the grade did not exist! Now it does, and a few of those gems are being found. Full luster, no visible marks without really looking hard, no hairlines, strong strike, etc. These vintage coins are not perfect; yet when compared to a perfect SE, they come quite close. The two coins in this thread are nice examples. They are not perfect but there is a lot of room on the grading scale between 67 and 70. Take away three spots and one nick and the OP's coin is WOW!
We are going to see many more vintage coins reach higher levels as resistance breaks down. I don't know about most of you but it is very easy to tell a 69 (anything) from a 70. A 68 from a 69. and a 67 from a 68. Much of the time it comes down to tiny imperfections, hairlines, spots, etc. A really good place to look in order to refine your standards for marks can be found in the dollar section of the ANA Grading Guide. There are plenty more 68 Red Lincolns out there, I've seen them!
You old dinosaur! I would have quoted you if I had looked back beyond the last post!
You hit the 4 key by accident on your way to the 2.
Grades are tightening when your coin is being graded.
Grades are loose when you try to sell it.
Prices are up, way up when you are buying - always somehow find 6 other bidders interested when you try to buy.
Its a ghost town when you try to sell - where did all those bidders go?
Seller sees a 67 - the buyer sees a 65 at best.
and the game goes on.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Those of us who actually do send many coins in for grading have seen significant tightening over the last year.
Eye appeal can add a point to a grade, and that 68+ sure looks lovely! No offence intended to the owner of the $150 coin above in 67. It is in a different orbit than the 68+.
Stewart will tell you that his MS69 is the finest wheatback, and those who have seen it in person would probably agree. Most people don't know that it was from a roll that made most of the 68's and his coin went 69 on the first try. It is just that phenomenal of a coin. I suspect that is not what the 1909 is now a 69, if true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know what it looks like or if it exists.
just so I understand --- you haven't seen it and don't know what it looks like, but you doubt it exists and if it does it isn't a 69 and has been graded before???
But what about the quality of the coin? Do you think the coin is better than the 67+s or not?
Does Stewarts MS69 have photos?
I just learned that he prefers PCGS to not take photos of his coin, like the 1958 DDO.
Do other major collectors prefer PCGS not take and publish photos of their coins?
IMO, this is a ridiculous statement. I'm going to guess you are making a funny joke.
The grade of that mythical Morgan dollar depends on a lot of factors. With everything in the exceptional range except for a single hit on the cheek, I'll assure you that a grade of MS-62 would not even be considered by an experienced numismatist.
Your assumption was correct =P
Thank goodness, I figured your personal grading standards were tighter than a ....
There is a 1919 Lincoln that is darn perfect- strike looks almost modern. Is that the MS69 that is being referenced in this thread?
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