This should be a no-nonsense objective area, unbiased pricing, everyone gets to buy at the same prices. Of course coins with exceptional eye appeal or liner coins should be priced higher. The dealer could always say he has to price at 20-50% markup to make money. Problem coins are a tough area to price.
I prefer marked prices.... and if I think it is fair, I pay the price. If I think it is a tad high, I will ask once if it is his best price. Often there will be a reduction and often I will buy. Otherwise I just say thank you and move on. I see no need for hassle or snarky comments...I always have ready cash and find this works well. Cheers, RickO
@3stars said:
Sports cards have VCP online, which will tell you auction prices paid for cards in a given grade. Seems like the coin community would be better off if it had a VCP type website (or maybe it does, but I'm not aware of it).
Heritage
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Some interesting comments here. But, many of them only serve to heighten the tension between buyers and sellers. Not being a total blockhead, I have learned a couple things doing this for nearly forty years.
First to the collectors: It really is rude to walk up to a dealer's table waving around a Greysheet. I realize some newbies may think this will show the dealer that they know something and prevent them from being ripped, but it's flat-out rude and not a great way to start a negotiation. Do yourselves a favor, take a stroll around the show looking, noting what you think you might be interested in. If you must, look up the price out of sight.
Better yet, do you homework the night before. Personally, I prefer auction prices to sheet anyway. and you get a sense of which way the market is moving. If it's in a uptrend, you're likely gonna have to pay up. If it's declining, you can probably get a deal. In sum, know the price range the piece is bringing in real sales. Then politely ask the price. If the dealer is way out of your range, simply move on. If not, politely start a negotiation and BE HONEST. If you know a coin is going for 200 - 300, offer in that range depending on how much you like the coin.
DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT THE GRADE. The grade on a coin is irrelevant, even for TPG. The only number that matters is the price. Are you trying to buy a coin or a some abstract grade? I don't care what the piece is graded as long as it commensurate with the price. Try it. You actually be surprised at how many times a dealer will quote a price below what the piece is bringing at auction.
If slab coin is overgraded or ugly, just don't waste your time. The dealer likely bought it for the idiots who buy based on the slab grade. Don't be the fish, let someone else get hooked.
For dealers: If you really don't want to deal with the "great unwashed" except to maybe rip them off on occasion, then put up a Dealers Only sign. Otherwise, be prepared to deal with a lot of newbies who really don't know what they're doing and having to POLITELY explain, experienced collectors who do know (so don't be arrogant), and outright rude jerks (umm, sorry I don't think we can make a deal). You're gonna have to put up with "tire kickers," don't let that spoil a potential sale. That the curse of being a dealer. If you can't handle it, find another business.
Do yourselves a favor. At least price some of the nicer, solid collector pieces and high end stuff. They do make easy-peel little price stickers these days, can you believe it? Put real, reasonable starting prices on the coins. Believe it or not. this will generally turn-off the "Greysheet wavers" and attract actual, real, live collectors - they do exist!!!
Be willing to negotiate within reason. Long time, repeat customers start with the first sale. I'm amazed at how many dealers I've heard gripe about someone they didn't know wanting a better price "like someone I know." Geez, must be nice to have so many good customers you gotta chase away the hoards of no-names trying to buy from you.
Last, to both, DROP THE ATTITUDE. Dealers, I realize you have to make a living, but you're not going to make a year's wages on every single coin and you're gonna have to POLITELY educate newbies and negotiate with your customers. Collectors, I realize you don't want to get ripped off, but be smart, be polite, and do your pricing homework first.
what a dealer paid for a coin should not enter into it....
Here is a funny story about that: A dealer who had a shop for near 50 years always displayed his offerings with a price no grade.. Very big glass counters with lots of cool raw coins, all priced. I went in one day and there was another "collector" in there. He is looking at common date peace dollars. He spotted a nice one and said to the dealer, "$150.00? For that one? why so expensive?" Before the dealer could answer the guys says, "How much did you pay for it"? The dealer without batting a eye says, "about 10 bucks, I bought it 30 years ago"... He did! he had tons of coins he bought a long time ago and when one sold he put out another one...
So what a dealer paid for a coin is not relevant to the transaction for the retail buyer.. If you feel it is to much don't buy it..
How to Tell Clients They Can't Cherry Pick Dealer Stock at Greysheet Prices
Is it really that tough to explain nicely that greysheet or whateversheet is for typical material and that there is always a range from dreck to PQ++? Also, the quotes in the paper may be stale.
@Rittenhouse said:
Some interesting comments here. But, many of them only serve to heighten the tension between buyers and sellers. Not being a total blockhead, I have learned a couple things doing this for nearly forty years.
First to the collectors:It really is rude to walk up to a dealer's table waving around a Greysheet.
What is rude is when you attempt to sell to a dealer and they try to lowball you 20% back of greysheet bid. Most dealers would rip off their own mother for a buck. I carry my greysheet proudly and I don't pay over bid for anything especially in todays very weak market. If they don't want to deal with me whatever I'll move on to the next table where they will. Their loss.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I mostly don't deal in 'normal' coins,
but I know for a fact that 20% back of
bid for many many items is not a low-ball
bid.
There are many Rare coins being OFFERED on the
dealer TT system for 20% back of Greysheet, and
that 20% back of bid for many, if not most, modern
proof sets, for example, is normal.
You won't pay more that greysheet bid for anything,
and you're saying that 20% back of bid is 'lowball' pricing -
so I assume you mean that dealers can and should work
on 10% for everything, correct?
You said 'especially in todays very weak market'.
I am missing your point - Either the market is
'very weak', and 20% back of bid is a fair offer
for many (not all, of course) items..........or........
20% back of bid are low-ball offers because the
market is strong.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
I don't think I will ever forget the time last year when I offered a dealer a coin in trade (it was a commem trading for another) and the dealer offered me 45% of Greysheet ($260 for a coin with GS of $550). Needless to say that put us very far apart.
So if 20% back of bid is not considered a lowball offer why is a collector pulling out a greysheet and offering bid for a coin considered rude? Geez 20% profit and to you it's still not good enough?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I was simply replying to your
post that said that. I never used
that word myself.
My post had nothing to do with
'20% still not good enough'.
I was just talking about the market.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
The coin market is very weak and appears to be getting even weaker. I'll continue to pay bid if adding a coin and I will continue whipping out my greysheet in front of dealer to do so. If some find that rude or don't want to deal oh well, sorry. Free will.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Greysheet is cac pricing in a lot of cases. Getting GS for many coins is ok, but probably not for special or spectacular coins. And it depends on where the transaction takes place, at shows fully knowledgeable dealers and customers can negotiate really high end coins objectively.
In my dozen or so coin shows, I’ve encountered something interesting with gray sheets maybe three times already. I’ll see some stuff with a sign that says, “greysheet bid” as a price. I find something I like and ask how much it is. The dealer responds with a huff that if I think I’m going to get a better deal than greysheet bid for that, I should look elsewhere. Thing is: I was asking the price because I didnt have a greysheet to reference. I realized after the second time this happened that the dealer just assumed everyone had a greysheet - both dealers and collectors and they thought I was trying to push the price lower.
Lately, most of the things I’m looking for I don’t need greysheet - I know what they sell for on eBay without looking. Found some great deals this way but also saw a ton of stuff waaaaay overpriced.
This is why I buy raw. More room for haggling once it's in a holder it's that grade or better to them and your going to pay for it, But that's just me dumb Type2 walking the floor at long beach picking away.
As a buyer I hate the people who bring out red books. I usually leave. A GS consultation and maybe haggling to a thanks but no thanks. If someone is buried in a coin that's not my fault; I'm not helping mitigate their poor investment by overpaying.
But what balls these people have. I'd never walk up to a dealer waving a graysheet and cherrypicking their cases only to walk away with nothing, or leave no room for profit.
Last I checked dealers weren't in the business to lose money. If someone told me "I'll just buy it on ebay". OK good luck have fun at the show thanks bye.
From my perspective if 10% saves me ebay hassle and shipping and it's not too much, or if I find a nice coin I've been looking for, or cherrypick, I'd pay a little more. I wouldn't get buried. If I had a 25% return after ebay fees for spotting a VAM or over date or whatever, the last thing I would do is nickel and dime the guy. Or gal.
These people thinking they're entitled to graysheet prices or below are free to open their own tables and stores and ebay/PayPal and get their own customers to lowball them all the livelong day.
@Azurescens said:
These people thinking they're entitled to graysheet prices or below are free to open their own tables and stores...
Greysheet is just a source - just like the Red Book or the Blue Book or what have you. Fair market value is what one person is willing to buy and another is willing to sell. Often these two numbers are widely different. And I’m not talking 10% different or even 20% different.
CIP I was quoted a price of $85 for a raw lower MS 1926 peace and a raw 63-64 1940-s walker today. I asked if that was together or each and was told each. Now I don’t care what the greysheet says - apparently it was consulted for these quotes because the guy did whip it out. But each of those are $30 coins and can be had any week for that on eBay. I even found the same two coins at the same show for $30 per. So why the near 200% markup? These aren’t rare coins - the guy even had a small stack of raw 1926. Did I accidentally have my “I’m a rube” hat on? How is starting at near triple the value going to start a good negotiation? Am I supposed to lowball at one third the value ($10)? I’d just rather walk and find someone who’s more reasonable to start, which is what I did.
Entitled has nothing to do with it. The market is what it is and right now, those with the cash are in a more advantageous position most of the time.
@thebigeng said:
what a dealer paid for a coin should not enter into it....
So what a dealer paid for a coin is not relevant to the transaction for the retail buyer.. If you feel it is to much don't buy it..
How true. I was always guilty of not putting prices on my 2x2's. I bought an AU common date seated dollar once, years ago. It was in an old, rusted staple, 2x2. You know the type. I don't know when the guy that sold it to me had bought it, but it had a price (in bleached out, old pen ink) of 9 dollars and 50 cents on it. It lived in a 2x2 box with 70 other 'not priced' coins. The real guys that came across it would ask, "How much is this ?".
The clowns that went through the box would say, "I'll take this", with a sawbuck in their hand. That coin was fun, until it was gone.
Unfortunately, there is no great answer to your question. Some coins have a tighter trading range because they are readily available. Collectors have a point of reference with some being shallow and others that have a much greater appreciation of availability and how valuations work. This is a process that is learned over time. You might ask what the collector collects and how long they have been collecting as that might help. And you can gently remind the grey sheet buyer that even though coins of the same date may be graded at the same level just simply does not mean that they are equal in the eyes of all collectors. I am not suggesting this is always an easy conversation.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Comments
This should be a no-nonsense objective area, unbiased pricing, everyone gets to buy at the same prices. Of course coins with exceptional eye appeal or liner coins should be priced higher. The dealer could always say he has to price at 20-50% markup to make money. Problem coins are a tough area to price.
I prefer marked prices.... and if I think it is fair, I pay the price. If I think it is a tad high, I will ask once if it is his best price. Often there will be a reduction and often I will buy. Otherwise I just say thank you and move on. I see no need for hassle or snarky comments...I always have ready cash and find this works well. Cheers, RickO
Heritage
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Some dealers just say for PQ coins this is the price .. if not good ..move on ...can't please some fools
Apparently some weekend collectors still think they can see dealers rubes at shows
A cherrypicker will gladly pay any price a dealer asks. That is, if he's a good cherrypicker.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Some interesting comments here. But, many of them only serve to heighten the tension between buyers and sellers. Not being a total blockhead, I have learned a couple things doing this for nearly forty years.
First to the collectors: It really is rude to walk up to a dealer's table waving around a Greysheet. I realize some newbies may think this will show the dealer that they know something and prevent them from being ripped, but it's flat-out rude and not a great way to start a negotiation. Do yourselves a favor, take a stroll around the show looking, noting what you think you might be interested in. If you must, look up the price out of sight.
Better yet, do you homework the night before. Personally, I prefer auction prices to sheet anyway. and you get a sense of which way the market is moving. If it's in a uptrend, you're likely gonna have to pay up. If it's declining, you can probably get a deal. In sum, know the price range the piece is bringing in real sales. Then politely ask the price. If the dealer is way out of your range, simply move on. If not, politely start a negotiation and BE HONEST. If you know a coin is going for 200 - 300, offer in that range depending on how much you like the coin.
DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT THE GRADE. The grade on a coin is irrelevant, even for TPG. The only number that matters is the price. Are you trying to buy a coin or a some abstract grade? I don't care what the piece is graded as long as it commensurate with the price. Try it. You actually be surprised at how many times a dealer will quote a price below what the piece is bringing at auction.
If slab coin is overgraded or ugly, just don't waste your time. The dealer likely bought it for the idiots who buy based on the slab grade. Don't be the fish, let someone else get hooked.
For dealers: If you really don't want to deal with the "great unwashed" except to maybe rip them off on occasion, then put up a Dealers Only sign. Otherwise, be prepared to deal with a lot of newbies who really don't know what they're doing and having to POLITELY explain, experienced collectors who do know (so don't be arrogant), and outright rude jerks (umm, sorry I don't think we can make a deal). You're gonna have to put up with "tire kickers," don't let that spoil a potential sale. That the curse of being a dealer. If you can't handle it, find another business.
Do yourselves a favor. At least price some of the nicer, solid collector pieces and high end stuff. They do make easy-peel little price stickers these days, can you believe it? Put real, reasonable starting prices on the coins. Believe it or not. this will generally turn-off the "Greysheet wavers" and attract actual, real, live collectors - they do exist!!!
Be willing to negotiate within reason. Long time, repeat customers start with the first sale. I'm amazed at how many dealers I've heard gripe about someone they didn't know wanting a better price "like someone I know." Geez, must be nice to have so many good customers you gotta chase away the hoards of no-names trying to buy from you.
Last, to both, DROP THE ATTITUDE. Dealers, I realize you have to make a living, but you're not going to make a year's wages on every single coin and you're gonna have to POLITELY educate newbies and negotiate with your customers. Collectors, I realize you don't want to get ripped off, but be smart, be polite, and do your pricing homework first.
"I'll buy all you have to sell me at that price."
That's the biggest BS line ANYONE can feed you.
@Rittenhouse
That is a great summary write up, thanks
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
what a dealer paid for a coin should not enter into it....
Here is a funny story about that: A dealer who had a shop for near 50 years always displayed his offerings with a price no grade.. Very big glass counters with lots of cool raw coins, all priced. I went in one day and there was another "collector" in there. He is looking at common date peace dollars. He spotted a nice one and said to the dealer, "$150.00? For that one? why so expensive?" Before the dealer could answer the guys says, "How much did you pay for it"? The dealer without batting a eye says, "about 10 bucks, I bought it 30 years ago"... He did! he had tons of coins he bought a long time ago and when one sold he put out another one...
So what a dealer paid for a coin is not relevant to the transaction for the retail buyer.. If you feel it is to much don't buy it..
The original question was:
How to Tell Clients They Can't Cherry Pick Dealer Stock at Greysheet Prices
Is it really that tough to explain nicely that greysheet or whateversheet is for typical material and that there is always a range from dreck to PQ++? Also, the quotes in the paper may be stale.
Most importantly: Keep the emotions out of it.
I'm done.
What is rude is when you attempt to sell to a dealer and they try to lowball you 20% back of greysheet bid. Most dealers would rip off their own mother for a buck. I carry my greysheet proudly and I don't pay over bid for anything especially in todays very weak market. If they don't want to deal with me whatever I'll move on to the next table where they will. Their loss.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I mostly don't deal in 'normal' coins,
but I know for a fact that 20% back of
bid for many many items is not a low-ball
bid.
There are many Rare coins being OFFERED on the
dealer TT system for 20% back of Greysheet, and
that 20% back of bid for many, if not most, modern
proof sets, for example, is normal.
You won't pay more that greysheet bid for anything,
and you're saying that 20% back of bid is 'lowball' pricing -
so I assume you mean that dealers can and should work
on 10% for everything, correct?
You said 'especially in todays very weak market'.
I am missing your point - Either the market is
'very weak', and 20% back of bid is a fair offer
for many (not all, of course) items..........or........
20% back of bid are low-ball offers because the
market is strong.
I don't think I will ever forget the time last year when I offered a dealer a coin in trade (it was a commem trading for another) and the dealer offered me 45% of Greysheet ($260 for a coin with GS of $550). Needless to say that put us very far apart.
I am
1) Amazed that dealers pay less than face value for rolls of state quarters, because they can only pay .x% of what they sell them for.
2) Amazed people accept the offer.
So if 20% back of bid is not considered a lowball offer why is a collector pulling out a greysheet and offering bid for a coin considered rude? Geez 20% profit and to you it's still not good enough?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I never said that it was rude.
I was simply replying to your
post that said that. I never used
that word myself.
My post had nothing to do with
'20% still not good enough'.
I was just talking about the market.
The coin market is very weak and appears to be getting even weaker. I'll continue to pay bid if adding a coin and I will continue whipping out my greysheet in front of dealer to do so. If some find that rude or don't want to deal oh well, sorry. Free will.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Greysheet is cac pricing in a lot of cases. Getting GS for many coins is ok, but probably not for special or spectacular coins. And it depends on where the transaction takes place, at shows fully knowledgeable dealers and customers can negotiate really high end coins objectively.
In my dozen or so coin shows, I’ve encountered something interesting with gray sheets maybe three times already. I’ll see some stuff with a sign that says, “greysheet bid” as a price. I find something I like and ask how much it is. The dealer responds with a huff that if I think I’m going to get a better deal than greysheet bid for that, I should look elsewhere. Thing is: I was asking the price because I didnt have a greysheet to reference. I realized after the second time this happened that the dealer just assumed everyone had a greysheet - both dealers and collectors and they thought I was trying to push the price lower.
Lately, most of the things I’m looking for I don’t need greysheet - I know what they sell for on eBay without looking. Found some great deals this way but also saw a ton of stuff waaaaay overpriced.
This is why I buy raw. More room for haggling once it's in a holder it's that grade or better to them and your going to pay for it, But that's just me dumb Type2 walking the floor at long beach picking away.
Hoard the keys.
I like it raw.
.
.
.
I like my coins raw, too.
As for this thread, just don't be a pushover.
As a buyer I hate the people who bring out red books. I usually leave. A GS consultation and maybe haggling to a thanks but no thanks. If someone is buried in a coin that's not my fault; I'm not helping mitigate their poor investment by overpaying.
But what balls these people have. I'd never walk up to a dealer waving a graysheet and cherrypicking their cases only to walk away with nothing, or leave no room for profit.
Last I checked dealers weren't in the business to lose money. If someone told me "I'll just buy it on ebay". OK good luck have fun at the show thanks bye.
From my perspective if 10% saves me ebay hassle and shipping and it's not too much, or if I find a nice coin I've been looking for, or cherrypick, I'd pay a little more. I wouldn't get buried. If I had a 25% return after ebay fees for spotting a VAM or over date or whatever, the last thing I would do is nickel and dime the guy. Or gal.
These people thinking they're entitled to graysheet prices or below are free to open their own tables and stores and ebay/PayPal and get their own customers to lowball them all the livelong day.
Greysheet is just a source - just like the Red Book or the Blue Book or what have you. Fair market value is what one person is willing to buy and another is willing to sell. Often these two numbers are widely different. And I’m not talking 10% different or even 20% different.
CIP I was quoted a price of $85 for a raw lower MS 1926 peace and a raw 63-64 1940-s walker today. I asked if that was together or each and was told each. Now I don’t care what the greysheet says - apparently it was consulted for these quotes because the guy did whip it out. But each of those are $30 coins and can be had any week for that on eBay. I even found the same two coins at the same show for $30 per. So why the near 200% markup? These aren’t rare coins - the guy even had a small stack of raw 1926. Did I accidentally have my “I’m a rube” hat on? How is starting at near triple the value going to start a good negotiation? Am I supposed to lowball at one third the value ($10)? I’d just rather walk and find someone who’s more reasonable to start, which is what I did.
Entitled has nothing to do with it. The market is what it is and right now, those with the cash are in a more advantageous position most of the time.
How true. I was always guilty of not putting prices on my 2x2's. I bought an AU common date seated dollar once, years ago. It was in an old, rusted staple, 2x2. You know the type. I don't know when the guy that sold it to me had bought it, but it had a price (in bleached out, old pen ink) of 9 dollars and 50 cents on it. It lived in a 2x2 box with 70 other 'not priced' coins. The real guys that came across it would ask, "How much is this ?".
The clowns that went through the box would say, "I'll take this", with a sawbuck in their hand. That coin was fun, until it was gone.
Unfortunately, there is no great answer to your question. Some coins have a tighter trading range because they are readily available. Collectors have a point of reference with some being shallow and others that have a much greater appreciation of availability and how valuations work. This is a process that is learned over time. You might ask what the collector collects and how long they have been collecting as that might help. And you can gently remind the grey sheet buyer that even though coins of the same date may be graded at the same level just simply does not mean that they are equal in the eyes of all collectors. I am not suggesting this is always an easy conversation.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.