What can or should collectors do about counterfeit coins and medals?
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Recently, two threads were posted concerning subject of the fate of counterfeit coins and medals. They are titled: Tough Question: Should authentication companies add a "destruct clause" for counterfeits? and If authentication companies do not destroy counterfeits,...
While members have expressed multiple opinions and a few have proposed actions to label counterfeits, no one has come up with ideas on how the hobby & business of coin collecting can reduce the presence of counterfeits.
Daily, we see messages here and elsewhere about fake coins and medals being peddled on ebay, flea markets, or other venues. Yet collector comments don't mention how to prevent those items from being sold elsewhere.
What, then, can or should collectors, dealers and hobby organizations (like the nearly defunct and spineless ANA), do to actively remove counterfeits so that these specific items never are offered for sale again? (Government is specifically excluded as an option – we have to assert ourselves to protect the hobby. That is not government’s job.)
The OP will not interject opinions in this thread, except as already stated.
Comments
Well, for one, we could stop collecting them.
Counterfeits OF ALL THINGS have been around forever. It is called life. There will ALWAYS be someone trying to fool others. It's in our nature. That's why many believe there was only one "perfect" human.
Hopefully, there will always be some folks trying to catch the counterfeiters. Best we can do is educate ourselves whether we are buying a purse or a coin.
PS If folks stop buying them as counterfeits, that will not stop others buying them as genuine.
Now, I shall join the OP (The OP will not interject opinions in this thread, except as already stated.) as I
don't really care to read any other opinions! 
LOL
I agree wholeheartedly. But IN THE RIGHT HANDS they won't hurt anyone. Matter of fact, they are good educational tools.
My local coin dealer has a "rouges gallery" of coins that were altered (like 3-leg Buffs) and routinely shows them off when the topic comes up.
One of his favorites is a 1909-S V.D.B. with added mintmark. He catches people all the time with it.
I wish I knew the solution......see......I've really said nothing about how to stop it.
I think it's going to get way worse as technology advances...and the newbies get caught first. You can't force feed research and study on people.
But that's what needs to be done for a start.
Pete
How do you get rid of a nest of killer bees ?
Bad posting system ate my message again. Fourth or fifth time this week.
Bad posting system ate my message again. Fourth or fifth time this week.
They must not have tasted good as the system spit them back out.
Use them as poker chips.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
We could pretend all the fakes are real and then that would drive down the price of the real ones so as to make them more affordable. Once I get my dream collection built we can regroup and see if we want to then get rid of all the fakes.
I agree not buying them would help, but I see a bunch being sold and purchased all the time. These were sold from Harpursville, New York.
This is a hobby for many and a business for some.....As a hobby, there are always new or inexperienced collectors. That makes a market for counterfeit product. For counterfeiters, that is a business - and a profitable one. After all, the artificial tarnish business is booming...and you may notice, the complaints are far less than they were fifteen years ago. All we can do is self police our venues. There is no 'entity' that will do this for us... the hobby is but a small segment of human activity and not significant when it comes to societal impact. We must continue to call out the fakes when seen, capture the items when we can, and educate the collecting community when possible. Cheers, RickO
The number one outlet to sell counterfeits to collectors is eBay. eBay appears willing to work with knowledgeable people to remove counterfiets off the site. ANA could set up a position as Director of Counterfeit Prevention to work with volunteers to scan eBay for counterfeits and report to eBay for removal. There are already collectors who are on eBay for hours each day and they can turn their counterfeit findings into ANA for eBay removal.
Tough problem Roger. I assume you mean modern counterfeits and not contemporary which are avidly collected.
I don't think there is much collectors can do other than report them when they see them on eBay or other auction sites. There's no way for a collector to stop the Chinese/Asian fakes. I would like to see the US toughen legislation on this, possibly requiring auction sites to take down disputed pieces immediately. Even that gets a bit sticky as trolls could report stuff just to be a pain.
Counterfeits also have legitimate educational uses. Some years ago I sold Doug Bird a very cool EDM large cent for use in the ANA Summer Seminar courses. Kinda wish I still had it, it was fun to show around.
Where there's a niche, a hobby, or a group of gatherers there we will also find a few phonies, pretenders, liars and cheats. It's the way of our world.
Among other things, donate money to the ACTF or what is now being called the AETF (Anti-Counterfeiting Education Foundation).
While it's a good discussion topic, (of which I missed the other two threads, apparently), I think part of the problem lies in our own midst!
If we can fool ourselves into thinking contemporary counterfeits and modern counterfeits are somehow "different", or convince ourselves that some "legitimate" company making 1964 Peace Dollars as fantasies is different than Chinese companies ignorantly making 1877 Morgans....Then we have no one to blame but ourselves!
You can decide if we should "embrace them all", or "scorn them all".....
Personally? I'm in the camp that thinks they should be destroyed.
I'd like to see you try to come after my collection of Henning nickels, or my WWI Iranian counterfeit Canadian $100 bill, or the collection of WWII Operation Bernhard forgeries that I hope to assemble one day.
This post made me break my silence. I'm part of the problem.
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Perhaps as folks mature as collectors they will learn to appreciate the variety of numismatic counterfeits. When I was growing up, Machin's Mills counterfeits were in the junk box! A museum quality electrotype can be a thing of beauty. Many old ancient counterfeits are sought for collections and books have been written about their makers. Holding an extremely deceptive AU 1796 FH dollar takes away any lust for the genuine article for me. I say keep your hands out of my pockets and send me your fakes. I put them to good use.
As for the unfortunate folks who buy unmarked counterfeits...they have my sympathy.
As implied by my post, that is one of your options: "Embrace them all".
But if you do that, then I see no reason not to accept the Chinese counterfeits as "collectables of the future". Maybe someone will write a book, and make them much sought after!
But I remain on the "scorn them all" side of the fence. I just have no interest since they don't fit into my definition of what coin collecting is all about....And I don't think that is influenced by my "maturity as a collector".
Now, to the OP's question: This makes a single answer almost impossible to agree upon "as a hobby". It just ain't gonna happen.
Since last summer, I have had a very iffy 1909-S VDB Lincoln and a very iffy 1914-D Lincoln in my possession. They came in with an old set of Lincolns that was assembled over 50 years ago. I have a strong suspicion that both have added mintmarks. The 1909-S VDB coin matches none of the usual shapes of the mintmarks shown in most diagnostic photos. This coin is, however, rather heavily worn and lightweight.
If at some major show (ANA, FUN, CSNS) there was a table with a reputable authenticator available to give me a quick thumbs up, or most likely a thumbs down, and if they had a roller (like a penny elongating machine), I'd be pleased to run the bad coins through the mill. I might even make a contribution of $5 per coin, or thereabouts, to help the cause. Sending the coins to our host is pricey and not an option given my own negative opinion about these pieces. I can't readily suggest who or what organization would be the sponsor of this table.
But I gotta have the extra final reassurance and our local cadre of collectors aren't as knowledgeable as they all think they are. A lot of our local guys gave me a bad verdict on a lower-grade rare Morgan several years back, and they were flat-out wrong. The area coin professionals are my market for a lot of routine stuff and 90% silver, and I simply don't want to show them this likely fake stuff.
I am willing to have any deceptive copper, bronze or silver counterfeit coin that I own destroyed promptly.
Bad Gold coin, I might want the rolled out or melted metal returned to me.
Why wait until the future? I already have a selection of SD/TD fakes. I like to know what the bad stuff looks like so I can hopefully recognize it and avoid being taken.
Completely understandable, and no one needs to justify not wanting to own or collect fakes. But, that is only one approach, and there are others that are equally as defensible.
Agreed!
Personally, I think a person's opinion on this subject is tied to their approach to coin collecting. For me, I am interested in every aspect of money and how it is used, and I recognize that what is routine today will be part of history in the future. I save depleted gift cards, and I have started depositing my dividend checks by scanning them and submitting them online so I can keep the paper check. I love collecting fake UK pound coins because they are in my opinion very historical (or will be). On the other hand, a lot of other people have a much narrower focus and that is fine, too.
@TommyType said: "As implied by my post, that is one of your options: "Embrace them all". But if you do that, then I see no reason not to accept the Chinese counterfeits as "collectables of the future". Maybe someone will write a book, and make them much sought after!"
Now, INHO you really do see the other side. ONE DAY...there will be a book. Just as there is for contemporary Bust Half dollar counterfeits. Some of these fakes make the crude magnetic junk from China look like museum pieces. I guarantee that the deceptive counterfeit Trade dollars, Large cents, Flowing Hair dollars, etc. WILL be in a book one day. Heck, they cost over a hundred dollars now (if you can get them) as folks want to keep them for themselves!
@BillDugan1959 said:
Bill, there are ICG or ANACS authenticators at most major shows. If they turn out bad, you can donate them to the grading service for their reference/seminar collection for free if you don't wish to spend a few stamps to mail them to the ANA in an envelope.
How about we start the fight by delisting Chinese companies like alibaba from the NYSE and banning them from operating in the US? They are one of the MAIN suppliers of counterfeit, bullion, coins and other goods in the US and they were welcomed with open arms.
Literally google any rare coin and add alibaba and you'll see the fake coin for sale there.
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1930247680.html?src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&isdl=y&albcp=756963599&albag=43596749721&slnk=&trgt=76682734962&plac=&crea=en1930247680&netw=g&device=m&mtctp=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk6XJjNmX2QIVh4VpCh3bvwZkEAQYAiABEgJaEfD_BwE
How about we fine these companies and countries that openly allow the export of counterfeit, fake or dangerously made items that are sold in the US. Has everyone forgot about the lumber liquidators flooring made with asbestos, children's toys made with lead paint, toothpaste the was poisonous? What about pet food that killed animals or dangerous makeup?
We need to lobby Congress and the President to have the US Trade Representative and others take action.
For those that think we shouldn't get the government involved, I think getting the government involved is one of the only effective ways to deal with this. If the movie industry and the steel industry can get the US government on their side, why not our hobby?
PCGS has educated Congress and fought for improved laws. We need other organizations joining in as well.
This group of counterfeit 14-D's, 09-S's 1901-S, 1795 Half dimes, 16-D's etc should make many of you posting here very happy.