VD Brenner Lincoln Plaque with 1865 over date
midnightlady
Posts: 4 ✭
Hello. I have this plaque that I was listing on eBay and then the owner remember it hung in his grandparents house. This would date it back to I am guessing at least the 50's. I have only found one that is similar to it and it sold for over 3K. So I pulled the listing to do some additional investigation. The 1865 date has been etched or overstruck, the original date was 1909. You can barely see this in the pictures. I have not removed the plaque from the wood because I was afraid I might hurt the value. Can anyone help me with this? Thanks!!!
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There have been a few of these plaques mentioned here on the forum over the past months - maybe you can fund the other threads.
I don't see a 1909 date that has been removed - are you sure about that or just guessing from other plaques you have seen? These apparently come in different formats/dates.
I know that Brenner's original rectangular plaques can bring he kind of money you mentioned, but I was not aware these round ones were anywhere near that level.
I know little about these but fear that the addition of the "1865" date was done by a previous owner who was trying to "improve" the artwork. That alteration will probably greatly hurt what ever value it had. The alteration was sloppily done so there is little chance it was done by Brenner himself.
It is a copy with altered date. Not an original.
I had one of these years ago. It was obvious that, somewhere in the casting process, the date had been changed from "1909" to "1865". The back side of mine was raw (basically blank). I believe that there was an edition of these that was released as part of an actual issue of some sort. This is the second portrait of Lincoln that Brenner created, which is exactly the one used on the Lincoln cent. The first portrait was issued on bronze plaques in 1907. It has different details (such as the front of the coat) than the second version. There are reproductions of the 1907 plaques and they have somewhat rougher surfaces and some fuzzy details compared to the original. Based on the pockmarks and fuzzy details on yours, I believe it is a recast (reproduction) of the 1859/1909 plaque. Yours could very well be a recast circa 1959. Even so, it still has some value. But not what an original would bring. I remember that mine had smoother surfaces and sharper details than yours. The "1865/1909" over-date was also sharper and more obvious on mine.
There was a smaller rendition of your plaque that was used on a die-struck bronze medal (about 3-inches in diameter ?):
Here is an original 1907 plaque.
I will wager a guess that the round plaque with the modified date may have been a Civil War centennial issue.
Possibly, although "1809" and "1865" are Lincoln's birth and death years.
Yes, good point. 1809 and 1909 would have been for the centennial of his birth (with the new Lincoln Cent leading the way in that commemoration), so maybe once that anniversary came and went they changed it to 1809 / 1865 so they could keep cranking them out for a few more years (decades?).
Posted by Idhair Coin Talk
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
@WoodenJefferson thx for posting that fascinating article. There is some great information there. I sense that there is a lot more to the story, though. I suspect there are a lot more than "less than a dozen" of these around, and there are many more of the disc itself, in various formats.
Thanks you all for your comments and information. This was the link to the one I saw that sold for so much but I think I can see the that one also has a smooth surface. https://historical.ha.com/itm/political/abraham-lincoln-victor-david-brenner-plaque-by-gorham/a/6092-38094.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 Mine is about 4 3/8 inch dia. and the wood is 6.5 inch. So At least now I know that I don't need to pursue a formal auction. Can I get a clue as to what ballpark I should list this for? Are we talking $100 to $150 or lets say $500 or more? I just need an idea of where to start the bidding. Again, thanks everyone for your help!!!
If you play up the Brenner and Gorham connection (although I am not sure yours was made by Gorham - I would think it would be marked if it was), it will get attention from bidders. How much? Who knows. I would guess closer to the $100 end of the spectrum than the $500 end, but I could be wrong.
The shape of the "6" in the 1865 date is different between the Heritage one and yours. I don't know the origins of all these, and things are complicated by the various recasts. So if it were mine and I was going to sell it, I'd just put it in the on-line auction and sell to the high bidder.
I spoke with Paul Cunningham at Fun about these. He did not know the history of the ones with the 1865 date. Paul's book has a lot of information on the 1909 version.
The entire "1865" date on that one is slanted. So it is yet another version.
It is possible that all of these were first made as a wax positive out of a mold, and all the ones that came out of that mold had "1909" on them. And then each wax was individually (by hand) altered to have an "1865" date. Then the wax was cast in bronze (using the "lost wax" technique).
That's the best answer so far. I posted a different thread on these some time back. I can't find it.
One more image. It's very possible that someone took Brenner's work and started playing with it. One more image.
@midnightlady...Welcome aboard.... Very interesting item....Seems there were a lot of different, but similar one's made.... You might try offering this piece here on the BST.... no fee and an interested clientele.... Good luck, Cheers, RickO
We decided to relist the plaque on ebay at $899.00, with the ability to make an offer. Since I had been contacted by several eBayers want to make an offer, we thought this was the fairest way to do it. If anyone is interested in the plaque or just curious how it turns out check it out there. Again, thanks for all the help.
Thought I would update everyone on how the listing went. I received offers for the plaque from 2 of the 3 ebayers that had expressed interest. One was for $750 and the winner was for $772.50 plus shipping. I did not pit them against each other, so it might have been possible to sell for just a little bit more, but in the end we were happy with the price. Thanks again for helping me figure this one out. Now because of my Lincoln penny education, I am on the look out for a wheat penny with Brenner's initials. LOL One never knows, it could happen!!! :-)
Congratulations! That sounds like you did extremely well.
I think you did well, based on the prices realized for similar Brenner/Lincoln plaques.