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NN: "Canada gets the milk spots off coins"...Announced this morning is a process called MINTSHIELD™

GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 2, 2018 7:00PM in U.S. Coin Forum

We can only hope.


Canada gets the milk spots off coins
Posted on February 2, 2018 by Dave Harper


Have you ever discovered unsightly white spots on one of your uncirculated or proof silver coins?

I have.

They detract from eye appeal. They detract from value.

The Royal Canadian Mint has developed a new way to fight them.

Announced this morning is a process called MINTSHIELD™.

It will be applied to all 2018 silver Maple Leaf bullion coins.

The RCM explains the problem:

White spots (also called milk spots) are surface discolorations which sometimes mar the appearance of silver bullion products. Unlike tarnishing, which is a by-product of oxidation, white spots don’t have a single, predictable cause and this has complicated the search for an effective solution to a problem affecting silver bullion coin producers all over the world. MINTSHIELD™ will fight the problem.

This is the most concise description of the problem I have ever come across.

“The Mint has a long history of revolutionizing the bullion industry with advances in purity and security, and MINTSHIELD™ is yet another exciting step in that direction,” said Sandra Hanington, President and CEO of the Royal Canadian Mint.

“By protecting the dazzling appearance of our silver Maple Leaf bullion coins, our engineers have found a new way to bolster the world-wide appeal of our signature silver bullion product,” she said.

This new process could very well revolutionize how collectors go about choosing what to buy.

We know collectors are attracted to specific national issuers.

We know they are attracted to good artwork.

We know they want the highest grade possible.

As part of that quest for high grades, the potential elimination of milk spots could become a key consideration.

The bullion coin market is intensely competitive.

A new advantage like this could have a big impact.

It is invisible to the eye. It doesn’t alter a coin’s composition or purity. It can be applied efficiently in a large-scale production environment.

Quite rightly the RCM brags about this and its other recent advances.

MINTSHIELD™ surface protection follows BULLION DNA™ anti-counterfeiting technology, laser micro engraving and 99.99 percent purity.

British statesman Winston Churchill was quoted as saying his tastes were simple; he only wanted the best.

When it comes to coins, collectors want only the best.

The Royal Canadian Mint obviously wants to give it to them with this new process.

Buzz blogger Dave Harper won the Numismatic Literary Guild Award for Best Blog for the third time in 2017 . He is editor of the weekly newspaper “Numismatic News.”


http://www.numismaticnews.net/buzz/canada-gets-milk-spots-off-coins

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Comments

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 36,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "NN implies 'removes' instead of 'shields'," MsMorrisine says.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,837 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was just thinking about this I have some Kennedy with little spots that otherwise the coins would be perfect. I think that the cause is the surface tension on water used to clean the blanks. The reason I say this is my knowledge in chemical reactions. I worked in a plastic manufacturer who made acrylic sheet for airplanes ballistic material etc. you can’t evaporate water quick enough on heated metal to not have issues.

    I will read about this new claim and report back. Agree with @MsMorrisine

    Best place to buy !
    Bronze Associate member

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OK. What is it,and does it "remove" or "prevent?" The press release says "surface protection."
    (Olive oil will protect also.)

  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Eh? Go Canadian Mint!

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Will it pass the sniffer at PCGS?

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting. I would like to learn more about the process.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,329 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Of course, we won't know if it's effective for a few years, and won't know of long term side effect for a few more. Did they do HALT testing on coins both treated and untreated to show effectiveness?

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2018 8:39PM

    @ms70 said:
    Will it pass the sniffer at PCGS?

    I was wondering myself if we were going to at least get a special limited edition MS70 FS mintshield certified label. Could command a hefty premium on Ebay. :ROLL

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™
    Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????

  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can I forward this info to PCGS and collect the $50,000 reward?

    GrandAm :)
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So they've decided to shellac the coins in an attempt to get people to buy Maple Leafs instead of Eagles?

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @messydesk said:
    Of course, we won't know if it's effective for a few years, and won't know of long term side effect for a few more. Did they do HALT testing on coins both treated and untreated to show effectiveness?

    They SHOULD have done 85/85 accelerated testing on them. If so, 30 years gets shrunk down to a couple of months in the test chamber. If they didn't do that...well then shame on them. If they did it - as they SHOULD - then we have a pretty good idea what happens in the longer term.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    "NN implies 'removes' instead of 'shields'," MsMorrisine says.

    They imply "removes" in the title to the article. Everything in the article itself says "prevents".

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2018 4:13PM

    @Kkathyl said:
    I was just thinking about this I have some Kennedy with little spots that otherwise the coins would be perfect. I think that the cause is the surface tension on water used to clean the blanks. The reason I say this is my knowledge in chemical reactions. I worked in a plastic manufacturer who made acrylic sheet for airplanes ballistic material etc. you can’t evaporate water quick enough on heated metal to not have issues.

    I will read about this new claim and report back. Agree with @MsMorrisine

    That's a partial explanation. Water itself won't do anything to silver - unlike plastics. It has to be some compound in the water. The milk spots sometimes don't develop for years, at which time the water used to clean the blanks is LOOOOONG gone.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    mint.ca/store/dyn/html/bullion/mintshield/pdfs/Solving%20the%20silver%20bullion-WEB-EN.pdf

    Based on the Mint's own statements, this "technology" reduces the subsequent appearance of milk spots, it doesn't completely prevent them. It is clearly applying a nanolayer of some passivating material.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • Beefer518Beefer518 Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    Looks like the Canadians finally found a use for all that bacon grease....

  • BGBG Posts: 1,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2018 2:27AM

    The Mint subjected Silver Maple Leaf bullion coins to a wide array of advanced scientific tests and diagnostic procedures, identifying the root causes of white spots and developing MINTSHIELD™, a unique production process, to reduce their occurence. Invisible to the eye and having no impact on the coins' purity or composition, MINTSHIELD™ is proven to significantly reduce the appearance of white spots for years.

  • TeamDennisTeamDennis Posts: 108 ✭✭✭

    A pox on RCM. I am so done with them.If it's not the spots it's the weird weights. I guess they forgot about KISS.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have always thought that "milkspots" were a strike-through resulting from an incomplete removal of whatever is used to rinse planchets prior to striking. perhaps the RCM should focus on that and not on a product which lessens the visual result.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For those under 30 "KISS" is "Keep it simple, stupid." and I agree with sentiment. I never liked gimmicky bullion.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I buy em heavily milk spotted and pay less than spot, give them the ole wrights silver cream rub and good as new. Can usually yield a $3 swing per coin with a quick 20 second rub.

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™
    Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????

  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms70 said:
    Will it pass the sniffer at PCGS?

    Who cares? Have they released their full library of elements that would prevent a coin from getting graded?

    If they don’t want to grade Canadian coins, I imagine other companies would.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting article.... However, it seems to deal more with the preventive aspect and not the corrective issue. Plus, it does not seem to be available to the public for application to collector's coins.... I searched the Canadian Mint website and googled MINTSHIELD... does not seem to be available. Too bad.... I would like to have experimented with it... Cheers, RickO

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,385 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I plan to buy a roll to try it out. Won't pay a premium for it though.

    IF it works, perhaps the us mint can license the technology.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 36,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Japan sprays acrylic on their proof coins -- at least the proof of circ versions that I saw.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 36,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've received new us mint issues with milk spots.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms70 said:
    Will it pass the sniffer at PCGS?

    For a $20 coin I don't think it will get sniffed unless you ask PCGS to do it.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Still see no answers.

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Surface tension is a void of air so what I am saying is the rinse is not cleaning all surfaces. Water contains sodium. It’s the sodium that is left behind. In CT at Spartech Polycast we had to use reverse osmosiss to the water to get as much of contaminant out of water before sending shots of chemical. We used glass and metal for cell casting. Water marks always issue on metal. Hard water soft water always makes difference On beads of water.

    Best place to buy !
    Bronze Associate member

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Still see no answers.

    They'll never give you specifics because they don't want to help the competition. I'm guessing they wash the plachets or coins with some secret chemical that seals and protects the surface in some way to prevent the formation of milk spots.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...ahhhh...now we're back to olive oil or some other end-manfacture coating that's cheap, inert and possibly effective.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2018 12:37PM

    @Kkathyl said:
    Surface tension is a void of air so what I am saying is the rinse is not cleaning all surfaces. Water contains sodium. It’s the sodium that is left behind. In CT at Spartech Polycast we had to use reverse osmosiss to the water to get as much of contaminant out of water before sending shots of chemical. We used glass and metal for cell casting. Water marks always issue on metal. Hard water soft water always makes difference On beads of water.

    I don't want to nit-pick (I am going to change my name to "nit") but "water" contains no sodium. If you have treated well water or chlorinated water it might (chlorination is often achieved with sodium hypochlorite, softening of well water is often achieved with sodium hydroxide).

    Surface tension is related to surface wetting, certainly, but any beading should apply to a static drop not flowing water where flow rate and turbulence are going to be far more significant. Certainly, you are correct, it appears they are not properly cleaning the planchets at some point in the process as there is some contaminant left, but even the manufacturers have been unable to determine a single source or even a single compound. And it does seem that whatever it is is somehow chemically incorporated into the surface as no amount of post production cleaning seems to prevent the problem.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    ...ahhhh...now we're back to olive oil or some other end-manfacture coating that's cheap, inert and possibly effective.

    It may be a bit more sophisticated than that. You can do monolayer surface modifications that reduce oxidation. They may be actually chemically modifying the surface in that manner. OR, they might just be shellacking them. :smile:

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do silver rounds or bars have this problem?

    I assume that when the mint gets a shipment of blanks/planchets that they keep their retained test samples for a number of years. I wonder if those develop spots.

    I expect that there is more than one type of spotting, but it seems that it is necessary for the coins to be exposed to air for the spots to eventually develop/appear. It would seem that they are simply applying a protective coating to keep air/oxygen form contact with the coin.

    Never been to the West Point mint to see the process, but it would seem that maybe a better way to effectively wash/rinse the blanks would be to drop them through tall towers of turbulent rinse water, thereby insuring that each blank gets properly rinsed. If you don't properly separate plates in a dishwater, they don't get very clean.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A simple X-REF of the surface will reveal basic info.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are youtube videos on how to do this.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said: "The milk spots don't develop for years, at which time the water used to clean the blanks is LOOOOONG gone.

    I don't want to nit-pick (I am going to change my name to "nit2"); however, I think you may wish to correct your post. Or, if you ever bought newly minted coins directly from the Canadian Mint in past decades you would know that spotting was a very common problem with their silver products and it happens very quickly.

    The new treatment is a big plus for both Canada and their customers. As far as I can tell, they did leave out a very important bit of information. Is the new "wash" applied to the pre-strike planchets or to the struck coin?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2018 4:15PM

    @Insider2 said:
    @jmlanzaf said: "The milk spots don't develop for years, at which time the water used to clean the blanks is LOOOOONG gone.

    I don't want to nit-pick (I am going to change my name to "nit2"); however, I think you may wish to correct your post. Or, if you ever bought newly minted coins directly from the Canadian Mint in past decades you would know that spotting was a very common problem with their silver products and it happens very quickly.

    The new treatment is a big plus for both Canada and their customers. As far as I can tell, they did leave out a very important bit of information. Is the new "wash" applied to the pre-strike planchets or to the struck coin?

    Amended to "sometimes don't develop for years. " is that okay, nit?

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe my roll of inuse maples will have the new technology and I’ll let y’all know in less than a decade.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2018 5:51PM

    @jmlanzaf said: "Amended to "sometimes don't develop for years. " is that okay?

    I agree, and that wording should cover it all. It seems that the Canadian Mint wrote that they found many causes for the spotting. From what I've observed, some spots definitely happen over a period of time. That is one reason the TPGS don't guarantee SE anymore.

    @jmlanzaf also posted: "..the water used to clean the blanks...

    Curious, where did you learn about this? Can you post a source?

    BTW, while thinking about this "new" treatment I realized Canada, Australia, and the U.S. (these are the countries I encounter most) have problems with spotting! THE CHINESE DON'T! I cannot remember seeing a spotted Panda. Very curious is it not? ;)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What the various companies are saying is: "We don't really have a clean working environment, so the planchets and coins get contaminated."

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @jmlanzaf said: "Amended to "sometimes don't develop for years. " is that okay?

    I agree, and that wording should cover it all. It seems that the Canadian Mint wrote that they found many causes for the spotting. From what I've observed, some spots definitely happen over a period of time. That is one reason the TPGS don't guarantee SE anymore.

    @jmlanzaf also posted: "..the water used to clean the blanks...

    Curious, where did you learn about this? Can you post a source?

    BTW, while thinking about this "new" treatment I realized Canada, Australia, and the U.S. (these are the countries I encounter most) have problems with spotting! THE CHINESE DON'T! I cannot remember seeing a spotted Panda. Very curious is it not? ;)

    I can't imagine that the West Point facility doesn't have a proper sized RO reverse osmosis unit set to produce high quality deionized water in bulk quantities.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Panda's do spot, I sold out my top MS70 set when a few of them started turning.

    GrandAm :)
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2018 6:41PM

    No one said they are! I've probably seen a couple of thousand last year and don't recall seeing any compared to at least 30 to 40% of the other countries I posted. When the coins were made, and the processes involved play a big part in the comparison. If I remember correctly 1994 was a BANNER YEAR for spots on SE's.

    BTW I should be interested to know WHEN this link was posted. ;)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    What the various companies are saying is: "We don't really have a clean working environment, so the planchets and coins get contaminated."

    Ironically, the Canada Mint issued a statement a few years ago saying: "They are intended as bullion, we don't care if they spot." Apparently, that was a bit of misdirection or the market conditions have changed.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2018 12:18AM

    duplicate

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said: "I can't imagine that the West Point facility doesn't have a proper sized RO reverse osmosis unit set to produce high quality deionized water in bulk quantities."

    I cannot imagine planchets are cleaned with WATER. Additionally, imagination does not clean coin planchets or further our knowledge about the Mint operations. I imagine little elves scrub the planchets with... :)

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