Internet purchases
PTVETTER
Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
There has been a number of discussions on the forum about the product that was recieved.
There is something to be said about buying a coin you can see in hand as opposed to a photo on line, no matter how good it looks.
Pay the extra few $$$ and be happy
Is it that much easier to buy on line or just being lazy.. Just a question?
go to a coin shop or show maybe you will find a new friend or two and what is wrong with that.
In addition to getting a coin your are happy with!
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
3
Comments
Sounds good, except that 99.99% of the stuff I buy is not available locally. If you are buying generic coins then sure, check local dealers or coin shows and keep the $$ local.
Some coins just can't be bought locally or at a show. I attend almost every show in Iowa and visit shops within two hours of me but I have located less than 25% of my collection that way. If I am looking for a specific coin that isn't common then there is no other option. As long as they accept returns you have limited downside.
In my case not Lazy at all.
I buy 99.9 % of my coins online from photographs.
I am extremely happy with my judgment of coins from photographs.
I could never imagine going from from one coin shop to another all across the country just to view a coin in hand.
1 coin shop within 180 miles from me. 3 coin shows within the same distance or farther per year. Looks like I have no choice, internet, if I want or need something.
Ken
what coin can't be found at the FUN show, Baltimore or regional coin shows.
maybe not small local shows, true.
?? how many bad or problem coins are sold on feebay??
I have sold a great number of coins online. It works well for most buyers and the return rate is well under 2%. I also appreciate the particular collectors that ask for additional description and images. I advise them to see the coins in hand first.
There is room for both.
Expensive to go to Fun. Also, Almost none of the coins I own could have been purchased at Fun.
Feebay, oh you mean eBay, the largest by far coin venue on earth. Well if you know your coins, you should not be buying bad or problem coins. And even if you did buy a bad coin, the great and powerful ebay allows buyers to return anything.
Didn't really think about what you said before you posted, 'eh? Too many would be shut out of the hobby if they had to rely on local coin shows/local dealers.
bob
Zero of the circ commems in my 50 set were purchased at shows or shops. Two in my 144 circ set was purchased at a show or shop. If it wasn't for the internet I wouldnt have much. I'm Willing to bet there is as much junk at shows as there is on eBay
Lafayette Grading Set
I am quite happy with online purchases. Going to a show, paying for hotel and transportation to eat fatty food doesn't sound like a good use of my time and resources.
I appreciate how much effort the online dealers put into hooking me up. Including the Mint.
Online has yet give me the diabetes.
BTW I'm not lazy either
Lafayette Grading Set
What most don't see is the truth
I own a shop and see what has been purchased on line from a number of venues?
Truly sad just how much money has been wasted on online transactions.
A well educated collector may have a better shot on line, but not always.
see current thread re a 1910 gold coin.
Yes I did think about it before posting.
How did the hobby live before the internet?
I would love to go to these places but the travel and lodging expenses would exceed my coin buying budget...
Bazillions.
But there are gazillions of good or problem free coins sold there as well.
How many bad or problem coins are sold at coin shows and in local shops? Why focus on eBay? You could buy your coins ON THE INTERNET (your original question) from any number of highly trusted sources including: Heritage, Stacks, David Lawrence, Harlan Berk, Legend, etc.
Actually, inexpensive coins are hard to find at the big shows. Esoteric coins can be hard to find at any but the most specialized shows. Try to find 5th century BC Greek at a local coin show or even a smaller regional show. 14th century Florentine coinage?
Good like finding common date Lincolns in low UNC grades at big shows. No one is going to waste table space on that.
Even if you want to do the "coin show circuit", how many are you going to do in a year? What is the cost? What do you do in between?
I think you are considering a very narrow niche of coins when you say that.
Find internet sources you trust and that take returns and what's the harm? Have you never bought a coin at a show and taken it home to discover it has hairlines you missed or some other defect the "show lighting" didn't highlight? Can you track down that dealer for a return any more easily than a trusted internet source? What if it comes back fake or cleaned or questionable color from our hosts? Why is the coin show purchase any better than the internet sourced purchase?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Your points are valid, but many have gotten hosed at the Brick and Mortar as well. 1988 or so I was invited by phone call to visit a local coin gallery. Knew little of rare coins and wisely left my checkbook at home. The salesman was kind enough to show me a raw 1892 or 93 Columbian commem in mint state condition for $8000.
What @ErrorsOnCoins said.
I buy 99.9 % of my coins online from photographs.
I am extremely happy with my judgment of coins from photographs.
I could never imagine going from from one coin shop to another all across the country just to view a coin in hand.
Pat I would love to buy coins from you. The problem is that you are on the East Coast and I am on the West Coast. The drive would be quite long. Seems how you have No Internet presence I guess I cannot buy from you. There is no way that I can find out what you have for sale. Am I correct?
Ken
Coinstartled stated that B&M have hosed many as well
What a true statement!
And before the slab lands so many AU dipped coins were sold as uncs, and in some cases still true today!
Oh how sad to say.!!
I have been in business since 2008 and still have a loyal following.
ONE of the reasons is I test ALL bullion coins fairly grade raw coins using some of the PCGS graded coins as guide.
try calling my business number listed on the bottom of all my post or email a want list.
I have customers in TX.
That 1910 coin is one RETURNABLE coin from a major retailer. Big deal.
I have never returned a coin on the internet. Why? I'm careful about what I buy. If you buy a raw coin from a hazy, dark picture and get hosed, you kind of deserve it. Don't trust the internet? Just buy slabbed coins. You may not love the MS-65 1881-S Morgan when you get it in hand, but it is still an 1881-S MS65 Morgan which is A) probably returnable and
probably still worth what you paid for it, even if you don't personally like it.
Do people get ripped of on the internet? Yes. Do they get ripped off at shows? Yes. Country auctions? Beyond a doubt. B&M store? Sometimes, although at least there you can complain to someone in person.
And, if I live in the middle of Iowa and there are no coin shops in my small town and few close by coin shows all year, should I just collect something else? Or do you think it is worth my money and time to fly to Baltimore trying to find a $100 Morgan $ rather than spend $100 on eBay and maybe have to return it?
And you can trash eBay all you want, but try and return a coin to Stacks or Heritage. It's easier to return them on eBay. In fact, look at a few threads on this board and listen to the dealers (full or part-time) complaining about how lenient the eBay return policy is!
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Are you ok if someone spends two hours looking through your inventory but there is nothing they are interested in purchasing?
The plus of purchasing online is no pressure to buy and you can look through the dealer's inventory listed on the site at your leisure any time day or night. I've made some great purchases at 2 a.m. doing this and not to mention, a lot of b & m's only take cash.
I have been in business on the INTERNET since 1997 and have had very few returns and still have a loyal following. My customers know what they are getting from me, so they come back. Their comfort level with me might be harder to earn on the Internet but it is no less real or valuable.
I don't buy coins on the Internet from random people with no feedback. I choose people carefully. If it's someone i haven't dealt with before, I tend to stick to slabbed coins or inexpensive raw. I've done 60 to 70 THOUSAND transactions on eBay and have had very few problems on either end of those transactions.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
How many bazillions in a gazillion?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
jmlanzaf : Exactly
And if you are a collector who rarely spends more than a couple hundred bucks on any one coin and doesn't spend more than a couple thousand per year, how the heck are you going to fly to coin shows on your budget? If I want to spend $1000 on Morgans for my set, by the time I fly to Baltimore, eat, get one night hotel, I get to actually spend $200 or $300 on coins. Talk about getting hosed. I paid $300-500 each for my 2 or 3 $100 Morgans. How the heck am I ever going to get that money back?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Most can't justify a trip to one of the "big shows", myself included, so whatever comes through the local ones or my LCS is all I can see in hand before purchasing. I see plenty of sliders labeled as uncs or problems not disclosed in the local shows. When I see that I just move on from their table.
Collector, occasional seller
Accumulation collectors really do not have want lists. They just buy what hits their fancy at a given time. Set builders need want lists.
Pat you are fighting a losing fight with this one. Its time for you to get a Internet presence.
Ken
I am not exactly sure but it must be a lot.
The "internet" isn't really new in the coin world. It's just the biggest, bestest "sight unseen" market of all time. 100 years ago, people were buying coins sight unseen from Max Mehl and other mail order houses. In those days, they didn't even have the option of high res digital photos or TPGs. Were there problems? Yup. Probably more problems than today.
What we have, in addition to the biggest, bestest sight unseen market of all time is the biggest, bestest, fastest information superhighway of all time. When someone bought a mail order coin they hated in 1950, only that person's nearest dearest friends heard about it. Now, if one person is disappointed in an internet purchase, we ALL hear about it, instantly.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I've bought one coin on line and am happy with it. I've bought my other 4 or 5 coins in person. Living in Massachusetts I am fortunate enough to have 2-3 coin shows/month within 60 miles, so for me it works out to buy in person. For those that don't live anywhere near a coin show or coin shop, I can easily see why you would purchase on-line.
Edited to add: I don't think it is laziness on most people's part, it may just be very inconvenient or cost prohibitive to get to the coin shows or the coin shops.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
The problem isn't "the internet" or mail order or B&M. The problem is buyers without sufficient knowledge to know what they are buying. And the internet can help there, if people are willing to learn.
True story:
I collected coins as a kid with my grandpa. Then stopped for 25 years. When I got back into them, I went to a local coin auction. In that auction was a 12th century Spanish coin that was so worn it is hard to know it is a Spanish coin. I had NEVER seen such a thing and had to have it, so I paid $15 for what is probably a $1 coin. That's $14 worth of tuition right there.
I learned. I make very few mistakes now. [Yup, I still make some!] I have fun. I make a little money. I get to handle interesting little pieces of art and history. And the Internet made it happen.
I LOVE Tibetan coins and currency. There were none in my town except one Pick 11 100 Srang note which was my first purchase. I started buying on eBay. I stumbled across a dealer who lived in Bhutan. She would send me boxes of hundreds of common, low cost Tibetan coins and tangkas. She sent me artwork and sculptures. She moved to NYC (true story!). She still sells me coins and currency. I could never have amassed the Tibetan hoard I have without the Internet. The only pieces that didn't come from her came from Stacks or Heritage or David Akers - all on the Internet.
Most all of my Greek Sicily coins came from David Sear, Berk or the internet. There are very few in my town and I live in a medium-sized city in Upstate NY with over 1 million people in my county. If I lived in Idaho, there may not be any in the entire state.
Those connections are much easier to forge in the Internet Age than before.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@PTVETTER.......I used to go to shows in the PNW... there were lots of them. Now, where I live, there are no shows and no shops. So, that restricts my sources to the internet. Done well so far.... Cheers, RickO
I don't know, you could just as easily throw down nachos and beers while shopping online.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I do not doubt your honesty or expertise at all, and I am sure yours is a great shop to do business with. I only wish it was close by. But, to be honest, you sound like a bit of a dinosaur. And coming from me that is bad, since I thought I was one of the few people who is still living on the other side of the Millennium.
I assume that your question is more a case of sour grapes over Internet competition than an attempt to get insight into how the market has changed. I recall years ago walking into a coin shop and perusing what they had in stock. I also remember getting catalogs and price lists mailed to me by dealers. That was then, but this is now.
These days, there are couple B&M dealers I have done business with (an hour’s drive away). They also list some of their stuff on eBay to try to get some traffic in addition to the people who happen to stumble across their doorstep. In this day and age, why NOT do that? It helps to move inventory that might otherwise sit in a display case for years. In one situation I saw a banknote that has an extremely narrow market (probably just me), and I showed up in person to buy it and save the eBay fees. He NEVER would have sold that note in his shop.
A third coin shop I have done business with is on the other side of the country and appears to be a small operation but he lists a lot of inventory on his website. His prices are good and so once in a while I look there and I buy what I am looking for if he has it listed.
You criticize the Internet because of all the bad stuff that is sold there, but that does not mean that you have to sell junk there. You could list on eBay or create your own website and sell your quality material and generate a following online as well.
To each his own – if you want to stay B&M and sell to locals and others who have sent you a want list that is great. But, that is not the normal business model these days as far as I can tell.
Most of my purchases are done online and many are from dealers who don't attend the major shows. Many times, the material becomes available in the interim between shows, too. As long as there is a solid return policy in place, I see no reason not to buy online when good stuff at the right price is only available there.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I've learned a lot by selling a few coins here and there, over the years. Nothing beats the School of Hard Knocks.
Dave
"I assume that your question is more a case of sour grapes over Internet competition than an attempt to get insight into how the market has changed."
As professional Nature Photographer for 40 years, my market has more than changed.
Some things you have no control of.
So what to do, move forward.
Although I still make and would like to make a lot more in nature photography, I had a choice a few years ago as to where to put most of my time, Nature photography or develop an error coin business. At that time, (during the great recession) it was kinda hard to sell art. Coins on the other hand, I found extremely easy to sell and provided cash flow. I put a lot of time and resources into developing the coin business. The internet made it happen. High end photography of coins made it happen.
Move forward.
If you're into buying whatever strikes your fancy that day, B&M stores or local shows are probably OK. If you are looking for tougher coins in a specific grade range, odds are you'll just never find them locally.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
I’d love to have a great shop nearby that sold quality material but I don’t. The internet is here to stay. Easy to buy. Easy to do it safely. The selection is absurdly huge...... something no single dealer could ever match.
I fail to see a compelling reason to accept the OP’s premise.
Pat,
I actually like buying from a B&M or a coin show, the problem has gotten to be:
Having just gone to a local show, with cash+checkbook, READY to buy, and walking out with NOTHING after 2 hours, it gets disappointing.
Thanks for the forum here, and the BST (and Teletrade/ebay/and even some earlier shows), I have all the common coins I really want. Now, I am more specific on what I want. I am NOT finding those locally. The 1, or 2, times, in the last 5 years that I have, they have wanted SIGNIFICANTLY above price guide and retail. Didn't want to come down. Comps, using HA (and ebay), showed their prices were WAY high, and the coins, while "nice" were not spectacular.
So, while I still enjoy going to a local shop/show, if I find something, I will be surprised. They are best for selling PMs near spot if I don't have enough to warrant shipping (and, buying those same PMs???? NO WAY. They want TOO MUCH)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Up until about five years ago, 100% of my purchases were from actual visits to dealers shops or shows.
For years I was in a coin shop or at a coin show 2 or 3 times a month. In the past five years that has changed dramatically. I haven't been to a coin shop in the past 3 or 4 years (none around where I live now) and my attendance at local shows has dropped off to almost nothing. I still try to make the bigger regional shows but it got to where I couldn't find anything at the smaller local shows.
Now I can shop 7 by 24 if I wanted to. At this point, I only buy slabbed stuff (PCGS and NGC) from on line dealers and typically only from dealers that are well known and that have been around for a number of years. The on line photos are great and I've never been disappointed with what I bought. And, I find a lot more quality stuff on line than I do at the local or even regional shows. However, I do find it is harder to sell stuff and dicker with an on line dealer so I save that for actual shows.