CAC and PCGS gets higher prices
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
At the FUN Heritage Auction coins like the
1942/1 Mercury dime, the 1945 Mercury dime
The 1917 D Walker went for $ 78,000 compared to
to $ 33,000 two years earlier without a CAC sticker
The 17 S reverse Walker went for $ 66,000
compared to $37,600 two years earlier without a CAC sticker. A 1920 D went for $ 92,000 which is more than double what it went for two years earlier.
IMO these coins would have sold for less without a CAC sticker. All these coins were CAC
Stewart
4
Comments
About a dozen years ago the buzz was that Heritage may crack $100 million in sales at FUN. They came in at the high eighties as I recall. This year the realized total will be about $41 Million.
In the dozen years we have added CAC, plus grading and a whole gaggle of genuine holdered coins. Gold is double the price that it was in 2005 and yet total sales are half of what they were in 2005.
Problems run deep in numismatics.
We should come up with a sticker to verify the cac sticker to verify the slab. Imagine the prices they would bring if they were not only double but triple verified. Where will all this madness end.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
How many coins were sold about a dozen years ago versus this year?
The point of my thread is I believe a
PCGS coin with a CAC sticker will bring more money in auction or privately.
Do you agree with me or disagree with me ?
I have seen higher results with the PCGS/CAC combo. Agreed.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS Isn't this the same as saying the sky is blue? I appreciate the examples you gave to substantiate your assertion, but I think most here have known this for some time.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Calling Capt. Obvious!!
I agree.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Stewart, I agree with your assertion, BUT I think a PCGS 66 CAC coin and a PCGS 66+ will be a more equitable comparison in many cases.
OINK
.
Are you referring to Heritages 2005 auction where the top 10 coins sold for apx $11,250,000 and included rarities such as
3 brasher doubloons
1894-s 10c
2 coiled stella
1833 $5 pr67
1835 $5 pr67
1795 $10 ms64
Or maybe you are referring to the 2014 FUN sale Where the top 10 was apx 15,606,000 and included
brasher ms63 cac
1913 5c pr64
1927-d $20 ms66
1884 T$1 pr65
Specimen moffat $10
coiled stella
1838-o 50c pr64
1826 $5 ms66
1870-s $1 xf40
and 1909-o ms66
Compare to 2018 top 10 which realized apx $3,510,000 which only had one one coin go over $500k at
1880 flowing stella $750k
1838-o pr63
1861-o $20
1879 flowing stella
1793 chain cent ms63 cac
My point is that in the previous 2 auctions I mentioned they each contained some major key/rarities.
This particular sale in my opinion while very large just did not have any gang buster coins. Yes the 1880 stella is nice, and maybe the 1838-o is somewhat special. But most of the other top 10 is stuff you will see in the right dealers case or on their website.
I think it comes down to the buyer. It seems the current trend is to blindly rely on multiple opinions and that's good enough.
Other buyers form their own opinion and the opinion on the slab is secondary food for thought.
If a stickered coin goes for a lot of money because of the sticker, then the consignor & auction house wins.
Is the buyer really building a better collection or just a more expensive one?
A sticker is a price inflation device.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
About 10,000 lots IRC in the old auction. > @joebb21 said:
You explained away $7,000,000. Where is the other $40M?
Unless you are a politician or the University of Arizona Athletic director, those are important numbers.
Ms 70 posts a sticker is a price inflation device ........ So very wrong
A sticker is a guarantee you are buying the real deal
A gold sticker will upgrade a full point 75% of the time and will sell for more than the grade on the holder 95% of the time
A coin that is not stickered will sell for less than a stickered 70% of the time if the coin was sent to CAC and not stickered
A coin that is Ms 70’d will not sticker. No psychedelic blue copper !
I don't see the correlation whether CAC adds value and the total sales of two auctions---one between a dozen years ago and an auction 12 years later that has different coins. Much more relevant would be looking at the prices of coins that sold 12 years ago and what those specific coins sell for now (ideally the exact same coin).
With increased prices of cac coins, it would be auctioneer/consignor malpractice to not submit to cac before auction.
Agreed, the deep disdain that some people express for CAC is astonishing. I'm convinced that it's a fear or realization that some of their coins will not be approved. We've all hear the same reasons many times. For example: be afraid JA has too much power, why is another opinion needed, CAC makes mistakes, shipping costs, etc. I've seen many coins that were not approved that were nice coins although I agree they are worth less than approved coins. I suggest that submitting coins to CAC can be a very valuable learning experience well worth the cost of admission. What I've learned from JA has helped me strengthened my numismatic skills and knowledge which has significantly improved the quality of my collection.
I believe that Ian at GreatCollections has been know to send in coins to CAC.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Malpractice? Is this where the hobby is at now?
I am often surprised at the relatively low percentage of CAC coins offered on Great Collections. As an aside, you always need to keep in mind that CAC does not consider the "+" designation when evaluating a coin for a sticker. On a stickered 66+, the sticker validates the coin as a higher-level 66, not as a higher level 66+. Thus, a coin which failed to sticker as a 66+ actually didn't pass muster as a 66.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
It did to PCGS. Perhaps CAC can set up an online forum so that all the coin snowflakes can genuflect directly to the messiah.
No need to resort to name calling. Stating a fact that seems to bother you doesn't justify calling anyone a "coin snowflake" or a "messiah".
Sorry...I came into numismatics when the catch phrases were "buy the book before the coin" and "buy the coin, not the holder." At one time this was a forum of top collectors. We had some of the best eyes in numismatics posting here and I gleaned a tremendous amount of knowledge about the hobby here.
Many weak hands today feel unable to make a decision of over a couple of hundred bucks without the blessing of a single man. Put down the torch for a moment and think about that. Consider the greats who came well before us. Chapman's and Green and Pittman. Folks that embraced rare coins, unafraid to pay a kings ransom without kissing up to a single demigod.
There is no doubt that CAC stickered coins now bring a premium over non-stickered coins. CAC has made a market, that is fact. Cheers, RickO
Buy what you like , sell what you don't. Sticker it first , so you can maximize the profit. Forget the hobby, get in the habit. NGC is still a force to contend with. Sorry gang (as much as I love you and the product.... i love competition, too)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
No need to apologize, I'm a realist. I too came into numismatics before slabbing forcing me to built and rely on my own skills. This was a blessing! I'm humble enough to realize that there is always more to learn. There have been and still are many knowledgable numismatists here that I too have learned from. JA earned my respect, he's not only one of the best graders I know he's a great guy. For what ever reasons you choose not to use CAC, that's ok. Perhaps you're one of the few who don't need any assistance with grading. Your comment about "kissing up to a single demigod" is unfounded, unnecessary, and once again shows your deep disdain for CAC and disrespect of JA.
So is a 66+ equivalent to an "A" grade 66 at CAC?
As ms71 said "keep in mind that CAC does not consider the "+" designation when evaluating a coin for a sticker." Every coin is evaluated on it's own merits.
I have no disdain for JA, by the way. I just think too many have a difficult time in the hobby, because of such complexities in the grading department of the plastic housing corporations of America. That said, I'm sure JA like Laura, and countless others who care about coins, are fine people.
I'm actually quite happy with JA, Kevin Lipton, and most of the stars in the coin world. We are all in the most enjoyable hobby (business/market/industry) ever known to man (barring golf) . But today, I'm celebrating the sale of a coin that's less than an ounce of gold without a sticker. I hope the buyers of my wares send the coins off to CAC. I'll buy them back at the price I sold them , if they don't sticker; because I Like the coins I deal with.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If I cannot buy a rare coin with confidence unaided, I need to switch to another area of interest. I have no issue with JA and am certain that he is a qualified grader. I also understand the desire of the flippers to take a low risk shot at a sticker and pad the wallet a little bit.
I have seen recent negative comments regarding tougher grading by PCGS which indicate that to too many here, the coin itself is secondary to the opinion of a third party.
Medicine has 100,000 competent surgeons. In numismatics we have a single competent grader? What part of that needs further clarification?
Coinstartled - you have called me a snowflake and John Albanese a
Messiah.
What should we call you ?
I assure you I am confident of my grading.. The collecting of coins is complex today because the price of a coin is often established by the grade on the holder. Too often the grade on the holder is wrong. Don’t you feel it is a great service for $14 or $28 to have additional assurance that the coin you are buying is not putties, cleaned or overgraded ? Some people are afraid of the truth.
Please explain why you think CAC has not helped numerous new collectors and dealers ?
I don't understand you're ridiculous questions like "In numismatics we have a single competent grader? What part of that needs further clarification?" No one said anything about a single competent grader!
We all know and accept the fact that grading has and continues to move in cycles. Who said? "the coin itself is secondary to the opinion of a third party." Your drawing incorrect conclusions.
I suggest focusing on some of the many positive aspects of this great hobby. CAC seems to be in demand and I doubt your disdain will change that.
If CAC works for you then embrace it and use it. If it doesn't work for you then don't use it.
I, along with countless other collectors, may not be comfortable buying an expensive coin "unaided". I'll enjoy the hobby my way, and have no problem whatsoever with every other collector pursuing it his or her way. Why anybody would disparage other collectors for the way they enjoy our common hobby is completely beyond me.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
Good question, but it does not seem to support the OP's narrative. Technically, a 66+ should be equilivant to a 66 CAC, but the + does not provide a second independent grading opinion.
A sticker on a 66 indicates that CAC thinks it is solid as a 66. A sticker on a 66+ indicates that CAC thinks it is solid as a 66. Nothing more, nothing less.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
LOL!!! Now we have CACphobia! Hysterical! I actually started laughing at this statement!
And PCGS doesn't guarantee it's the real deal?
Edit: typo
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
You might be onto something, perhaps you're in for a big surprise.
It is not the real deal in that the grade on the holder can be right technically but does not mean the coin is nice for the grade.
We have all seen dark ugly graded coins in a given holder. We have also seen cleaned, retoned, and other non original coins get into holders. While technically they are "accurately graded" 99.9% of the time such a coin will not get a cac sticker
CAC is the global warming of the numismatic world.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
and the 0.1% that do get by........Bill jones will post a picture of it. So we are all covered
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I prefer my gold, esp Indians, to be CAC.
And the idea that anyone would buy a CAC graded coin that had lousy eye appeal to them is absurd. In todays environment with fewer and smaller shows, it makes buying online so much less likely to have to buy 5 coins (and sending back 4) to get the one I want.
Er, I think you are abit optimistic here about 99.9%. I have seen a heck of alot of non-original coins be granted the green bean.......... Remember, all the bean means is that CAC likes the coin for the purpose of buying it at their price. Nothing more.
Best, SH
appreciate the post
Have fun with this...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
fair enough. I meant coins that have clearly been altered and should never have even got into a holder.
So they like it for the purpose of buying it, but the sticker gives NO CLUE as to WHY they like it?
I am wondering if some of the resentment towards CAC is justified because it is not an option for Joe Average Collector. It seems to be limited to the bigger dealers and their friends and customers. If average Joe does not have a B&M store near him with submission privileges how does he get his coins to CAC? Anyone that can afford it can become a PCGS member and send in coins to be graded. The same cannot be said about CAC- you must have connections. I have heard that there is a waiting list to join CAC and that the application requires references. Sounds like trying to get into Harvard or Yale to me. If I am wrong in my post please enlighten me how to get my coins to CAC?
I'm not a member and I'm on the waiting list. All my coins went to CAC recently for the first time. A dealer sent them in for me. I only paid the CAC cost.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am OK with grading, but there are some very good highly-skilled criminals out there. We've had people admit to it on here, prove they've done it and we still argue about it. Plus we've all witnessed the high profile battles over doctoring. If I was collecting high end anything, I would want all the insurance I could get. I have only a few CAC coins, I don't worship JA, but I still respect his opinion.