Pretty cool AT on a Peace $ - 3 crescents... Updated with New Photos...
TonerGuy
Posts: 590 ✭✭✭
Paid $32 so its not as though it was a big investment...
Bought it to study to see how this was done... this is pretty good work IMHO. You can argue with the colors being off but Im more interested in the effort that went into doing this.
Anyone have any ideas ?
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Comments
Is there luster on this coin?
Unfortunately by paying even a slight premium for the coin, you are encouraging them to make more.
I dont have it in hand yet. I think its AU - probably dipped/cleaned... and probably a practice coin.
This coin was sold by an 30 year ANA member who is a certified dealer with PCGS and NGC. There were no other toned coins on his site for sale. I hardly think the person I purchased the coin from was the doctor and the very slight premium I paid will cause an avalanche of illegal doctoring... lol
My suggestion is to buy AT coins so you can learn how its done so you dont spend $300 or $3000 on a MA/AT coin. Knowledge is key.
There are so many arm chair toning experts on this board talking about AT coins and "in the slab gassers" but few that can actually articulate how its done...
This coin took a lot of skill... this isnt an edynamicmarketing job...
There are many who can articulate "how it's done". They're smart enough not to.
BS... but if you can expertly doctor coins good for you and sad that you will not share your knowledge.
After 20 years of collecting toned coins, Ive met probably less than 10 toning doctors. And of those - less than 5 can do with expert precision. Im not talking about the edynamics guys. Im talking about guys that get their rainbow coins by PCGS and NGC on a regular basis that have large premiums attached to their work.
BS huh? Buying an AT coin and studying it will tell you very little about how it was made.
The coin docs with expert AT skills won't openly share their knowledge because it would only encourage competition. True numismatists with a love of the hobby who know how to do it won't share their knowledge either. It would only encourage others to mess up nice coins.
If you know 5 expert coin docs, that's 5 more than me. I don't go looking for them. It only takes one to destroy thousands of coins and damage the hobby.
BTW, the toning on the coin in your OP is amateurish and wouldn't fool anyone.
Ugh, fools and their money
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
lf you think its amateurish then at least impart your wisdom as to why you think its amateurish ? Do you think it was gassed ? If so, why ? Do you think it was treated with a liquid solution ? If so, why ? Do you think it was accelerated NT toning? If so why ? Do you believe the toning was accomplished by using heat ? If so, why ?
How do you think the doctor was able to accomplish three crescents ? How were the untoned parts of the coin protected from any evidence of toning ? Were other coins used ? Was it covered with wax ? Was the toning dipped off post toning ?
Without seeing the coin, do you think the reeding is also toned - how do you think that was accomplished ? If the reeding is toned does that seem to indicate that anyone particular type of doctoring was used ? If the reeding is not toned then what type of method ATing does that point to ?
An amateur tone job should be easy to explain.... No ?
Only thing readily apparent is you deep desire to believe. Considering must tone fans just make up a story to explain toning they like vs toning they don’t, how can one study Imagination? Clearly stored in a leather purse in stacks while in a humid climate in Vegas.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Believe what exactly ? Im not asking how this coin toned naturally. Its AT. Thats pretty clear even for those of you that dont understand toning or appreciate it... This is suppose to be the board of experts when it comes to all things coins... the interesting aspect is that the only people who respond to toned coin threads are clueless when it comes to toning. I wouldnt tell someone who knowingly purchased a moved metal coin, a puttied coin or a even counterfeit trade dollar that they were wasting their money in an effort to learn... isnt learning important ?
Did you just buy all your trade dollars already slabbed with the die varieties already noted ? Or did you buy raw and have to learn to spot the fakes from the real coins and learn the varieties ?
@gtstang said: "Is there luster on this coin?"
Yes. Lots of it, even under the rainbow. I
don't wish to open a can of worms here (YID) but many knowledgeable folks claim that the word "Luster" only refers to the "Mint Luster" found on coins. I consider them to be ignorant 
on the subject of light and the way it appears on surfaces.
PS As to the toning, both of the "experts" are making good points. Too bad the obverse is so nasty! From what I've found, it is not easy to get both sides to come out nicely. LOL.
PPS Toning is a "black "art." AFAIK, practice makes perfect, chemicals are involved, and you'll learn how to do it faster if you have a good teacher. You better have a fume hood and know what you are doing! Please don't take my post to insinuate I know anything about toning. Bob Campbell has made a presentation about toning for the ANA. You can borrow it from the ANA library.
I suggest you ask some of the "5 or 10 coin docs that you have met".
Well... Let me say this about that..... having spent a couple of years studying AT methods about twelve years ago, and having some remarkable successes, I did not, and will not, discuss what I learned or my methods here or any other accessible social media. There are excellent methods for inducing tarnish and the results, done properly, are undetectable. The premiums paid are why there are so many coin doctors and their products on the market. Broadcasting these methods will only serve to increase this plague. Cheers, RickO
Perhaps I missed it over the years... can you please repost the numerous examples toned coins that you were able to create ?
You dont have to explain how you did each one but I would be curious to see your level of coin doctoring expertise.
I am always interested in learning as well. I would like to see the results you were able to achieve only after studying the doctoring of coins for several years...
@TonerGuy ... That was long ago and I do not have pictures of my efforts. We did discuss this here on the forum many, many times. I am currently doing one 'experiment' that I did years ago, mainly for another forum member who has requested it (Lance). My experimentation was for several purposes... 1. I wanted to see how tarnish progresses. 2. What conditions were favorable. 3. What chemicals produced what kind of results. 4. What conditions expedited effects without losing quality. I am sure in the ensuing dozen or so years that the 'professionals' have exceeded any results I achieved and improved upon both time and quality. I did not retain my results, I cleaned the coins when done. Cheers, RickO
Well thats a shame... I was really curious to see what you were able to reproduce/create.
Over a dozen ago I was shown the gassing of clads but it wasnt very complicated and the colors created werent that impressive. I was surprised that any of them were able to get straight graded.
When you have completed your current experiment please post pics, again without explanation.
Without photos, the responses here are almost meaningless. The OP's coin is interesting, but it doesn't have the right "look", but it is a great educational piece. While exact methods might not be disclosed on attempted toning, it would be good to see what someone thinks could fool someone else (read photo evidence).
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Well this coin just got a lot more interesting...
The seller's photos were definitely juiced to make the coin much more colorful. When I received the coin it immediately looked familiar since I purchased a PCGS graded example with very similar toning colors.
The 1935 straight graded at PCGS as an MS63.
The 1922 coin is definitely AU and may have been cleaned at one point. However, its very close to the PCGS straight graded example. And that is one of the things I look for when buying raw toned Peace $ - does it match or is at least very similar to toning patterns and colors Ive seen before and/or PCGS/NGC have straight graded.
This one might not straight grade because of the cleaning but Im starting to lean towards it being NT. There is no identifiable smell of chemicals on the coin. The reeding is toned as it should be if it were NT. I couldnt detect any surface contaminants on the untoned areas. The colors dont "float" on the surface of the coin. And to a certain extent, Peace $ were kept in canvas bags in bank vaults. I have other crescent bag toned Peace $.
The only thing that makes me question it is that the there is dullness to the sharpness of the crescent lines. True bag toned crescents tend to have sharper lines of separation between the toning and the untoned aspects of the coin. And there is usually a small toning color change in the line.
Is it possible that the 1935 example is AT - absolutely. And is it possible that the same doctor did the 1935 coin and the 1922 coin - absolutely. To find two unique AT Peace $, years apart, from the same doctor it still pretty cool IMHO. But these are the only two toned Peace $ Ive seen with these colors.
Sorry for the poor iPhone photos...
Whatever you want to think is fine with me. I would be careful assuming that colors and patterns that you’ve previously seen straight-graded in TPG holders are automatically OK.
Also, were cleaned AU Peace dollars commonly stored in canvas bags in bank vaults?
Im not worried about it being AT or NT. My thoughts are --- is it MA? Im not saying this coin is NT. Im saying it has similar colors to a coin deemed to be MA by PCGS several years ago. That doesnt mean that they would think its still MA now. Like grading standards -- what is MA at PCGS and NGC changes - daily/weekly/month/yearly.
And yes, cleaned or AU Peace $ were stored in canvas bags, unlike bags of Morgans that were taken directly from the Mint to the bank. One hoard of Peace $ stored in canvas bags was the Binion Hoard which included XF, AU and BU Peace $. I have several examples with bag toning on them. Ive opened over $5000 of Ike bags, they had Ikes from XF to BU in them as well. I even had a bag toned Ike.
To understand grading dont you have to study and submit like coins? It's no different with learning toning by submitting similar coins. That doesnt mean your coin will get the grade you think itdeserves nor does it mean my coin will be straight graded. But looking at previously straight graded coins is one way to learn both grading standards and MA standards.
You raise several good points. I’m automatically a huge skeptic when it comes to crescent-toned (and many other) Peace dollars. People often assume that what is true for Morgans applies to these as well. That said, this triple-crescent isn’t MA to me.
I agree. And I was fully expecting this coin to be a kaleidoscope of color that floated on the coin's surface. With the resemblance to the 35-P Ive been thrown for a loop. I never thought the 35-P was AT. It was too crusty and spotty. I just thought it was unique. Now Im torn between the 35-P being AT and trying to figure out how a AU and probably cleaned 1922 Peace $ got the same color... and 3 crescents.
Toned coins are like a detective story to me - Im always trying to get to the toning culprit - whether its a Dansco album, third part aftermarket holder, a canvas bag or a coin doctor. Figuring out is half the fun.
For the record, I’m not a huge fan of the one in the holder either. It’s better, but I wouldn’t bet my life that it isn’t AT.
I’ve owned a few AT coins that initially looked pretty nice but rapidly progressed to this sort of look within a couple of years.
Yeah its a dup. Its not my favorite toned 35-P but I bought because - well 35-Ps with any color are exceedingly rare. Peace $ from 27 on are tough to find toned, nicely toned ones are extremely rare. Most of the ATing Peace $ is on the 22, 23, 24 and 25. As you know they are the cheapest and garner the highest premiums. The 35-P didnt really have a premium attached to it so I bought just to add the hoard of toned Peace $ I have. And it hasnt turned at all since Ive owned it for about 8 yrs now.
If its AT someone wasted their time.