Home U.S. Coin Forum

Poor Deadwood Assay Office – ignored and forgotten.

RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 21, 2017 11:28AM in U.S. Coin Forum

The place closed in 1927 as costs of mining exceeded the value of gold extracted.

Here’s a photo of gold being poured in 1913. The mitts were made of asbestos; note the lack of safety gear. The fellow wearing a suit and tie might be the superintendent.

[Photo data on the above says that the workers are pouring slag, But slag from gold melting should float on the surface. A companion photo of the same men says they are pouring gold.]

Comments

  • goldengolden Posts: 10,398 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice photo.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 24,347 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's really cool! Thanks for posting!

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 25,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who needed safety gear? If a worker got hurt you just went down to the docks and hired a new one fresh off the boat. (In Deadwood they probably had plenty of unsuccessful miners to chose from since they didn't have docks.)

    All glory is fleeting.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At the mints, personnel handling liquid metals were required to wear thick leather aprons to catch molten metal in case of a spill. In this photo, which was obviously posed, neither man has an apron.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great stuff!!

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is possible that in removing slag from atop molten gold some small amount of gold was included, so if you were to pour your molten slag in a conical mold the gold would settle into a "button" at the bottom.

    That said, I have no idea what these particular men are doing in this particular picture.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017 4:09PM

    Yes, that's also right.

    Can someone run back to Deadwood ND in 1913 and ask the men if that's gold or slag or something else ?

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,687 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's one from someone's photo album (from Yale University Library):

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice historical photo's.... unfortunately, most photographic notes only included short descriptions because people knew 'the rest of the story'....They did not consider that generations later, 'the rest of the story' would be lost....Cheers, RickO

  • FlatwoodsFlatwoods Posts: 4,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Yes, that's also right.

    Can someone run back to Deadwood ND in 1913 and ask the men if that's gold or slag or something else ?

    ND or SD??
    I don't want to go to the wrong place.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Flatwoods said:

    @RogerB said:
    Yes, that's also right.

    Can someone run back to Deadwood ND in 1913 and ask the men if that's gold or slag or something else ?

    ND or SD??
    I don't want to go to the wrong place.

    Deadwood is in West Dakota Territory!

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some of my reading state that gold was smelted into 50-100lb blocks out of safety when transporting to the Denver mint. If the gold were to be stolen it wouldn't get very far.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 31,443 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i love to see them old pics like that. theres some good history there :)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WildIdea said:
    Some of my reading state that gold was smelted into 50-100lb blocks out of safety when transporting to the Denver mint. If the gold were to be stolen it wouldn't get very far.

    Also to prevent small pilfering. You have to steal it all, or nothing.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2017 10:55AM

    @WildIdea said:
    Some of my reading state that gold was smelted into 50-100lb blocks out of safety when transporting to the Denver mint. If the gold were to be stolen it wouldn't get very far.

    One or possibly more of the Assay offices had been casting 2,000 oz gold bars for the convenience of mining companies. But a letter from Mint HQ told them to stick with 1,000 oz because the larger bars were difficult to melt at the mints. (I'll look for the exact reference.)

    A normal mint bar was approximately 400 oz 0.999 fine. (See From Mint to Mint for a table and explanation of bar sizes and metal purity.)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For all you math fans, 1,000 troy ounces equals approximately 68.5 avoirdupois pounds.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how much Helen of Troy was worth -- in gold, that is

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've google imaged "Helen of Troy" in the past and don't ever recall being disappointed.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 1:00AM

    Neat stuff! Thanks for posting.

    The Homestake Mining Co. was partially the cause of the closure of the Deadwood Assay Office. The price paid for gold was the same at all Assay Offices and Mints, but Deadwood could only issue drafts against San Francisco and could not refine metal. Homestake wanted New York drafts and shipped its lower grade bullion and amalgam to Philadelphia where it could be refined and paid in NY money. (In effect, the government was refining Homestake's output for free.) With the major supplier of bullion "gone missing," Deadwood operated at a loss.

    The Carson Assay Office was in a similar predicament regarding base silver bars. They accumulated a large stock but none of the Mint's wanted it because it was expensive to refine. Eventually San Francisco was forced to accept the Carson silver bars, and Carson was told to accept only gold.

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was under the impression that Homestake could perform all stages of their own refinement right on the mine grounds (When this happened, I'm learning now, thanks) as well as much of its own operations tooling and updating. I suppose they would have absorbed the entire market eventually and close or buy any private operations related to the process, including mineral rights, surface boundaries, forestry resources, water and power, railroad, human capitol, and financing, that come to mind for that period.

    I think of it interns of these chapters for a 120 year old mine:

    Discovery and initial Rush
    Conglomeration on claims into one basic commercial mining operation
    Infancy of proliferation and starting of open pit
    Moving of the town to expand open pit and tunneling below 1000 ft level
    Richest square mile on earth, institution of ore tax preventing state bankruptcy during depression
    Gov closing of mine for WWII and it's reopening
    Modernization and leaching
    Neutrino lab
    8000 ft level and it's ending if mining operations

    Also subcategories of Mining process, refinements, power sources, lifestyles, economic reactions, environment, historic impacts. All these change by the decades.

    It's been outlined to me by the current superintendent, who is rather accessible, that Homestake owns several mines all over the world, mostly open pits, the cost of underground mining expensive and dangerous and outdated. Their primary objective locally today is site protection and erosion control and the Neutrino Lab. His job is to make sure the water pumped out is clean enough to let run into whitewood creek. I can only imagine this process is playing out to this day wherever gold exists. That the discoverer if the load is seldom the developer of the mine and there are economic casualties along the line in the process and hopefully minimized.

    It's interesting to me that the Deadwood assay office would be a (early) casualty. This is exactly why this topic captivates me. That there is still more to read about and other chapters to study. It would be my guess that the folks and equipment of the Deadwood Assay Office would have moved to big mine but I don't know. Lots of metaphors to relate to other business structures to watch today. History repeating itself?

    I do know from first hand accounts and receipts I've seen that not only did Homestake start processing silver from its own ore and selling Hallmarked bars, but you could have brought your own silver scrap to the refinery and had it traded for bars etc. so not all silver bars are of actual Homestake silver. They very much had their own refinery at least in the 1980s that I know of.

    As far as when did refining and assaying become one and the same, you tell me. I would guess that when processing became straightforward and accepted technology became commonplace.

    Any resources or leads on these topic would be of great interest of you have any, thanks.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WildIdea

    I do appreciate your posting the book information. I have already located and ordered two of the four that really interest me (the two Time-Life volumes don't especially tick my type, I can probably find them locally).

    I have done this coin and bullion bit a long time now, and I don't recall ever seeing 'Homestake' silver bars. Memory is a funny thing, but I don't remember them.

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 11:24AM

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    @WildIdea

    I have done this coin and bullion bit a long time now, and I don't recall ever seeing 'Homestake' silver bars. Memory is a funny thing, but I don't remember them.

    They're hot right now, 50 or more an oz, but there are many many, I've seen them around localy. 10s, kilos and 1000s.

    I had a kilo once and sold it to buy a 1884 DMPL Morgan in 5. Huge mistake.

    The hallmark with HMC in the center were intended for gold bars and when on silver bars they're quite valuable. Those are the ones to find. The 10s are going for several hundred but careful, there are more than people think.

  • VeepVeep Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭✭

    “Roughing It” by Mark Twain is a great account of his adventures out west during the mining days. One particular funny story is about how he spent a day shoveling the production of the stamping mill for which he was paid something like $20. Twain, who was not fond of hard labor, told his boss after the first day that he’d need to be paid a lot more than that to continue. When asked how much he needed, he replied to the foreman, “About $100,000!” Cracks me up every time.

    "Let me tell ya Bud, you can buy junk anytime!"
  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Just for kicks I googled The Apex building. It still stands. In fact my long time friends Rick and Margie who own and run Dakota Plains Western antique auctions and also run the antique store next door. A few years ago the building was for sale and Rick took my wife and I upstairs to look around. About 3-4 buildings are all connected up there. Anyway, it’s upstairs has been vacant since the 80s where it’s last purpose was apparently prostitution. The waiting and bar parlor and numbered rooms were still as left. Quite creeps and disturbing. Mannequin still linger in the windows as Deadwood sells the old western allure. I think now it’s been sold, updated and repurposed to more modern uses.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 12:41PM

    @WildIdea

    Very interesting photos of the Homestake bars (and I might like to obtain one or two), but I suppose that even the poured silver bars that I am used to seeing were mostly even Troy weights.

    I must have come along too late for small silver bars of varying individual sizes, or my focus in the 1970s was more numismatic coins and not so much bullion.

    And thanks for confirming that the Assay Office Building still exists today. Seems to be in pretty good shape.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 1:24PM

    RE: Homestake. What the mining company was doing was using the Assay Office/Mint system to processes its low-grade metal at little expense to the company. This had the effects of making Deadwood assay operations more expensive, and requiring increased capacity at Philadelphia. The posted bars are modern -- i.e. long after the Assay Office closed.

    RE: Apex building. The modern building is a reconstruction. The original was destroyed by fire. The photo in the first post is of the original building. (See From Mine to Mint for details.)

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    @WildIdea

    Very interesting photos of the Homestake bars (and I might like to obtain one or two), but I suppose that even the poured silver bars that I am used to seeing were mostly even Troy weights.

    I must have come along too late for small silver bars of varying individual sizes, or my focus in the 1970s was more numismatic coins and not so much bullion.

    And thanks for confirming that the Assay Office Building still exists today. Seems to be in pretty good shape.

    The 10s are odd weights. Actually all the bars are odd poured weights but the kilos and 100s seem to be closer to the mark. I have a standing offer in in my local shops and hopefully get a call, there are a few heavy buyers right now and the local shops know it and most get shipped out, so I wait. They come up on eBay but they really get run up. There are some 100g and 3 oz bars with the gold hallmark floating around but I believe ALL Engehard deemed then fakes recently, but that needs more research. Frankly, with the value of these bars and the ease at which they could be reproduced I’m on the sidelines for really stepping up and shelling out.

    There are 2 different 1 oz gold bars and a few rounds, and fractionals that are neat. You might like those. Also a highly collectible silver round set where they put out one a year for several years with keys.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    RE: Homestake. What the mining company was doing was using the Assay Office/Mint system to processes its low-grade metal at little expense to the company. This had the effects of making Deadwood assay operations more expensive, and requiring increased capacity at Philadelphia. The posted bars are modern -- i.e. long after the Assay Office closed.

    RE: Apex building. The modern building is a reconstruction. The original was destroyed by fire. The photo in the first post is of the original building. (See From Mine to Mint for details.)

    I think we understood that the small silver bars dated from the 1970s and 1980s were not produced by an government office that closed in 1927.

    The facade of the original building must have survived practically intact.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep. Just being cautious.

    None of the original building, or the one next to it, survived. It was recreated based on photos and other materials. At least it did better than Dahlonega's Mint after the fire.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 3:04PM

    @RogerB said:
    Yep. Just being cautious.

    None of the original building, or the one next to it, survived. It was recreated based on photos and other materials. At least it did better than Dahlonega's Mint after the fire.

    They must have had a huge amount of Federal money, or something, somehow, to recreate those two stone/block facades. I did the 'flippy test' between the two photos for about five minutes, and thumbed to the appropriate page in "From Mine to Mint". Stone and block look perfectly the same, even where the two buildings meet each other. Granted the older photo isn't as distinct as the later photos, but the recreation of the stone/block work is WOW.

    All this is going to mean a trip to the Black Hills, soon.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 3:46PM

    I think that most of the money came from locals who felt the building was important enough to recreate. The recreation is dated 1996. The entire central area of the town in an historic district.

    Here's a better photo. The building at left was a brothel. Mannequins in the 2nd floor windows represent the old-tyme buffet.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If one is striving for historical accuracy, one supposes the old-time buffet wasn't as willowy as the modern mannequins.

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017 7:58PM

    @RogerB said:
    RE: Homestake. What the mining company was doing was using the Assay Office/Mint system to processes its low-grade metal at little expense to the company. This had the effects of making Deadwood assay operations more expensive, and requiring increased capacity at Philadelphia. The posted bars are modern -- i.e. long after the Assay Office closed.

    RE: Apex building. The modern building is a reconstruction. The original was destroyed by fire. The photo in the first post is of the original building. (See From Mine to Mint for details.)

    From Mine to Mint, Ill be getting a copy, Thanks. What I’m finding hard to piece together is what as the purpose of the Deadwood assay office in the early days. To be a buyer of random miners bringing gold from around the area? Then apparently Homestake build up a huge apparatus and went underground when the placer played out and subsequently started handling all their own refining. When did this happen and it apparently caused the closing of the Deadwood.

    Yes the bars I posted are from from the 80s and not from the time period the Deadwood existed but from a period the mine was know to produce them with public access to them. Still heavy interest as to the history of the mine.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Assay Offices were opened to provide a convenient, secure place were miners could convert their bullion into cash or good checks. The government paid full value is most instances, and this was much better than private assayers and gold buyers. It also gave the government metal for coinage and international trade. Although gold coinage and standard bars were net-loss products, they were important parts of the overall economy, and their presence affirmed the government value of gold at $20.676767.

    In the late-1830s-1840s the US quickly learned that the European practice of opening mints near metal mines was inefficient and expensive. Only New Orleans was a passably successful mint. Later Denver was never used as a mint, and Carson Mint was an economic failure.

    The assay office also attracted non-US gold, especially from Canada and Australia, which then became part of an expanding US economy.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    The Assay Offices were opened to provide a convenient, secure place were miners could convert their bullion into cash or good checks. The government paid full value is most instances, and this was much better than private assayers and gold buyers. It also gave the government metal for coinage and international trade. Although gold coinage and standard bars were net-loss products, they were important parts of the overall economy, and their presence affirmed the government value of gold at $20.676767.

    In the late-1830s-1840s the US quickly learned that the European practice of opening mints near metal mines was inefficient and expensive. Only New Orleans was a passably successful mint. Later Denver was never used as a mint, and Carson Mint was an economic failure.

    The assay office also attracted non-US gold, especially from Canada and Australia, which then became part of an expanding US economy.

    I think that San Francisco would qualify as successful.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, it was. I was referring to the 1830s-40s in general and then to the latter CC and Denver facilities. The Seattle AO was intended to take some of the burden off SF, although SF businesses felt it was an intrusion on their works. One must remember that the western coast of North America was largely a single gold economy, and nationalities were not important to the miners.

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I made it down to Dakota Coin today and I was able to get this crucible off the display shelf. I figure you guys would like to see they still exist. We wonder how much metal is still in the borax or slag. Notice the wear on the sided walls. Definitely been used.



  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Arthur Miller would love it!

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Arthur Miller would love it!

    That's a pour joke!

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :)

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018 10:54AM

    I just this book in hand today! Looks pretty in-depth I can’t wait to ‘pour’ through it, lol

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018 12:16PM

    Looks familiar! I've seen that someplace! [It's interesting for me to see a book I've written on a store shelf, in a post, at a dealer's table, or in collector hands at a show. There's something of an out-of-body experience --- so much time and work go into creating the book, and then to see it all new and in use. All my experience with the book is in details or maybe crates of printed copies - but rarely as a single finished product that is fixed in place. Thanks for the photo and bringing back fascinating experiences.]

    Suggestion: Use the CD as an index to browse around for specific content. Some have told me that they like to pop open the book at random places, too. Lots of interesting coin club programs in there, also.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The three year TV series Deadwood was nothing short of spectacular. The old set is stored not too far from me. Hearst was a bad bad man

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2018 12:49PM

    My copy of "The Gold Belt Cities: The City of Mills" arrived today. Looks very interesting and not something that will tax my eyesight (almost all old photographs). Got this one for a bargain price. One down, two to go.

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This has got to be one of the most interesting threads in a long time.
    I have visited most all of big gold mines in Northern California as I live in an old gold rush town. We still find gold all around this area, especially after the heavy rains we had last year. The Oroville dam almost blew out last year and they couldn’t keep the people from filling up 5 gallon bucket with dirt and running like hell :D . Of course there was gold down there with all of the run off over virgin land. They were risking their lives getting the dirt. Stupid in my book.
    Thanks for sharing my coin brother, Joe

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That would make a very interesting hobby pub. story -- or even a general readership story!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file