Just got to evaluate a large collection
scotty1419
Posts: 928 ✭✭✭
It's been a while since I got to look at any potential coin buys out of the limelight of a show. Recently I got a promising lead from Craigslist about a large inherited collection and got to go visit last night.
There were 5 large SUITCASES full of material. Apparently the grandfather in his old age spent a lot of money on HSN...
There was a ton of modern mint set/commem material along with the dish network invoices for shameful amounts, but there was also a surprising amount of decent material - maybe 100 PCGS morgans slabbed in MS+, saw about 5 nice CC slabs and it really covered all bases. There were a few small groups of old coins I could tell were collected quite a long time ago as well. Even saw 2 1800s $1 coins in the mix.
The granddaughter is now tasked with figuring out what to do for all of this material and unfortunately was clueless aside from 'wanting to sell to a collector to get a fair price and avoid dealers' to 'avoid someone profiting'.
I went through as much as I could last night with her giving her tips here and there. Unfortunately she's in a very distrusting state and for the handful of items I made offers on, she was extremely fearful of getting ripped off. I was able to come away with a couple PCGS 65 morgans, a nice slabbed trade, a couple commems and a few interesting 1914/23 currency items, but it was a pretty difficult time and frustrating.
I really feel for her because for a non-collector, I cannot imagine the burden of all the material I saw being placed on someone else. I could separate and catalog for a full weekend or 2 and not really finish it. I think in the end, she's going to have to do some heavy education or get some dealer offers to back up pricing on the lot, because I dont see how it would be feasible for a handful of collectors to pick through or even absorb a quarter of the content.
I was excited for the experience and it was a pretty good one, but also quite eye opening. I think I'll try to gently offer her some strategy tips and see how things go from here on. There were some series I feel very comfortable with and I had the greysheet for, so they were easier. Some material was very hard to provide pricing support for and I dont think she would ever be able to let something go without a buyer showing her proof of pricing for fear of getting ripped off - which certainly isnt feasible for the material involved.
Appreciate any thoughts!
Comments
Tell her to send all the slabbed material to GC.
She needs to understand there's a difference between getting taken advantage of and "avoiding someone profiting". A respected dealer with a fair offer would both profit and be incredibly valuable in her situation.
I agree GC is a great potential option as well.
I agree with the above.
Of course someone will profit from selling her inherited collection. That's what dealers do, or they would be working another job.
She just needs to find a trustworthy dealer to be able to give her the lion's share of what her grandpappy collected over the years.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
"avoiding someone profiting"
How dare a business make a profit to stay afloat!
I completely agree though that this sort of task can be frustrating for a non collector. I too have helped several people sort through piles of inherited coins, hoping to find a Holy Grail or two.
Doesn't HSN accept returns at full invoice price? Only seems fair to the buyers....
If they were cherry picked or quality coins, they may well CAC and CAC makes offers for many of their coins, much better option than sending to an auction company. Or a dealer could work on a 10% margin, do his work and cut her a check when the items are liquidated. HA brings more money than GC, if there is no hurry go with Stacks or HA, who also make straight offers. So does Dale Larson at Napolitano.
Gee, I wonder why the widow is apprehensive? She may have heard horror rip off stories from her husband or others.
A difficult task indeed. There is always suspicion from people who think 'old coins are rare and valuable'. That belief immediately qualifies them as inexperienced. That being said, it is also natural not to want to be fleeced, especially with family connected property. The best way to proceed is to bring supporting information and work slowly to build a relationship of trust. It will take a while and you may have to send her to a few dealers with a selected group of coins to see what others offer. The experience will help to build trust in your advice. Cheers, RickO
The chances are that If she were to walk into a dealer and offer that material the dealer would know immediately that:
What would follow would depend on just how skillful the dealer was in convincing such people to sell for as little as possible.
The moral: Don't leave collectibles to heirs who have no knowledge or interest in the collection. Say good bye to your collection before you die. It's a hard thing for most collectors to do but it should be done.
I recently had a very similar experience here in Canada.
Through an acquaintance I got introduced to a Family who was left with a lot of NCLT (none circulating legal tender, meaning collectors issues.) Numismatic Mint products.
Before the collector passed away, apparently he indicated numerous times that his collection is valued at 30-50,000 dollars.
I am sure he did pay that to the mint. Here is a approximate volume list of the items.
3 large (huge) laundry baskets full to the top and nicely piled of Non-circulating legal Tender (NCLT) mint products obtained by subscription by the late husband. Plus
Several** banana boxes** full more of the same.
About **15 large **neatly arrange and all UNC Albums full of more of the above NCLT in all US and Canadian denominations, totally complete issues for many years.
Other boxes containing special mint issues.
All the above were in their respective mint-boxes and packaging.
Some had some 50% silver content, most were just nickel or other alloys the mint uses, and some were actually .9999 silver NCLT items.
Only 2 NGC slabbed Morgan Dollars MS 61.
A few pages of silver Canadian and US coins….No key dates and Nothing to be excited about. Very difficult to find a buyer and to sell that stuff. Both postal systems, Canada Post and USPS are charging by volume weight for anything thicker than 20 mm and they really charge hard. So that rules out mailing with the boxes in most cases.
I made a scribbled approximate list of 20 large pages. But after a few hours getting cross eyed, I realized that the value of all that stuff is hardly worth the effort. There was nothing for a serious collector of real coins.
I asked myself if a dealer would buy it and if, at what prize.
At home I re-evaluated the whole situation and decided that IF I would buy it, it would be at a price which would be simply bullion value only.
Next day I called 3 different dealers. They basically indicated very similar: too much work for too little profit. If we buy the lot it would be for maximum 20% of the estimated value. One dealer explained the expenses to buy the lot and take it into inventory (where he has enough of that stuff already) labor and storage would probably eat up most of his profit.
When a Family member called me to find out what the deal would be, I said that there is hardly any interest beyond the bullion value. I gave her a maximum of and minimum of figure based on my present list but subject of doing a detailed inventory. I also told her in a nice way that the mint is the only winner here, despite what they always advertise.
That was the last I heard about it until the Widow herself, a very nice Lady called me wanting to know what the story is now. No difference.
She indicated that she might take the lot to the US and sell it there.
I told her that she probably will have a hard time finding a dealer there interested to buy that amount of Canadian content. I wished her good luck and told her that a friend who does Ebay exclusively had offered to buy the lot.
What would you guys do?
When hired to do an appraisal, this is how I handle it.
I am not here to buy anything - I am here to fulfill the needs of the client. Once you can show people what they have and that your not there to take advantage of them, trust building can begin.
I do a complete inventory and with its "retail" value of each specimen. (yes - it takes a long time!)
Once we have an inventory and a value, one can set aside any coins of merit, vs. the useless crap that is recommended to be put back in circulation - sorry - but this includes the circulated wheat cents - just about every jeff nickel, all those bicentennial quarters, etc. I suggest this be done first to lighten the load.
All the silver is given bullion value that is not worth much above any numismatic value. I always document the date I am using for the spot price.
The client now has a value that the courts can use and the family can use to make a decision.
Lastly - I give the owners the options with the pros and cons so they can make a decision that meets their needs that includes taking it to a dealer, selling it on line as one big collection, or single coins, or keep it as a family remembrance.
I never offer no matter how tempting to buy anything unless they ask me first.
I suggest they do an ebay valet to avoid the time for pictures, mailings, etc. I have helped broker collections here on the BST. I have helped sell individual coins on the BST or through great collections, etc.
Have I ever made money doing this. I am just helping people out with a small compensation of $20 per hour and most Tupper wear bins (i.e. large accumulations) bring me about $300 dollars when all is said and done.
Unless the courts are involved most want to get the stuff converted to cash ASAP. Most people do not want to do the labor of selling on ebay. Being a broker for a buyer or dealer has worked best because you have done the inventory and can speak to a buyer or dealer to share whats in there which encourages them often than not to buy it. By using retail value in the appraisal its easier for a client to see the differences in dealer offers, ebay fees, etc. in other words how much the value of the estate is worth vs. and the cost of cashing it in however they decide to do it.
Hope this helps.
WS
YQQ - that sounds pretty dire!
Based on stories shared here and my own experience, I have to say its sobering (and sad) to see that probably the majority of those who consider themselves coin collectors are buying this 'new dreck' that unfortunately carries little if any value. In this current situation, it was refreshing to see at least 50% quality material, but staggering to consider what was paid (based on the many paper invoices) vs. current value.
Speaking just for myself as a collector (and hopefully for many more years, as I'm 46, but do have a good life insurance policy in case fate has other plans in store) I would gravitate towards selling off my "collector" material while I'm still alive in the distant future.
I would hang onto NCLT (bullion gold) that I also enjoy collecting, but really can't imagine anything else coin-related & as "liquid" that future heirs can easily sell off to a respectable dealer when I'm gone. Thinking in particular of the Buffalo gold ounces, which really are very well done IMO, much better than the mint's Buffalo silver dollar attempt done years back. All my future heirs will need to understand is that they really are gold, they are 1 ounce each, and have a list of respected names to sell such to (which can be updated yearly as I age, as firms come/go/change names.)
Modern and ultra-modern NCLT seems to be becoming secondary market poison for many if not most issues. Would you want to tie up your own money in it? Think about it.
Distrustful or skeptical people are very difficult to deal with. It can be a no win situation. I don't envy anyone in this situation. They expect top dollar even for their marginally collectable stuff. And if you do them a favor by offering something for it, they think you are trying to rip them off.
I helped a family friend liquidate some coins once. I was happy to help but I would not look forward to doing it again. She sold a collectable book to a local dealer for $80 and then went back top the store a few weeks later and was ticket off to see it on his shelf for $200. She felt she was somehow ripped off. I had to remind her that it would likely sit there for many months if not years.
NCLT strictly as a bullion play is all I am interested in. Wouldn't be getting into MS-70 anything. Raw, govt. packaging, or MS-69 has always suited me just fine. Nor would I want things priced very strongly at a premium to their melt value, i.e., I wouldn't be trying for the typical flipper's delight/flavor of the moment.
As I mentioned, the 1 ounce gold buffalos really float my boat. I also won't turn up my nose at AGE's, though. 
This is a hard/difficult lesson for many to understand. Some can learn it, others will forever feel like everyone is out to get them.
That grandfather ought to be shot...............that was not fair to that heir.
I too have done that for an heir and it's just heartbreaking to show them the real value as opposed to what "gramps" said or what the receipts say. Walked from some, referred to dealers some and made a few purchases. But, overall just a big bummer.
bob
I knew I had an uphill battle when, instead of comping sold prices online, she was looking at listed BIN prices
The strong level of fear combined with a feeling that you're always getting cheated definitely makes things nearly impossible.
Tell her to go to a dealer and at least she can get a quote. No one else will have the time or expertise to give free appraisal. they also tend not to rip off because they have a reputation to consider. Many collectors think about what will happen with the collection before they pass on. That is good advice. I would also tell her if she does not trust anyone, then get the red book and look them up. Whatever the book says, cut that in half. Half retail is fair price in most cases.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
YYQ -- I would make her a fair offer based upon your knowledge of the collection which offers you a profit for your time and effort....then let her go and try find a better off somewhere...I guarantee you that she'll be back...don't waste any more time with her in the interim...
You have to charge for appraisals, otherwise a dealer has to pay their expenses somehow and will be tempted to do something unethical. The laborer is worthy of their hire and expertise. I'm not sure what fair hourly appraisal fees would be, but not minimum wage.
It could have been worse - she could have used a catalogue from that mail order place in New Hampshire.
She also pulled up a sell price for a currency note from Littleton...
I go through this all the time. Most dealers are trying to be fair, but common material is a tough move and low grade material is poison. I'm just honest, make my best offer, and encourage them to shop around. They usually come back, sadder but wiser.
I think everyone should try to sell common, low to mid-grade material on eBay for a while. Once they are done handling returns, paying 10-13% in eBay fees, and getting no bids or low ball offers, they will understand better how difficult MOST collections are to move. I'm not talking about the mid-six figure collections of all premium material. I'm talking about the collections of Littleton coins, U.S. Mint products, whitman albums of circ coins. It takes a lot of time and effort to move that material for very thin profit margins.
ebay is where she should be, not craigslist.
Appreciate the suggestion. I've tentatively made some suggestions to them, given them some value resources to consider, and offered a flat fee to organize everything. I mentioned there are 7+ large sized suitcases, imagine if they were all full and a complete mix of slabs, rolls, modern stuff, 2x2s, etc. I don't think they can even begin to consider a strategy until it's organized and prepped, but we'll see!
You'd have to do fixed price listings with offers, even that way it could take a long time to sell. The market is slow, especially for "stuff" there is endless supply of. Maybe a large modern wholesale buyer would take it on like Upstate coin in NY.
By the way, it's really a complete myth that a collector will pay more than a dealer for an estate like that. Most collectors want certain specific things and, frankly, want to pay as little as possible for them. [Ask any dealer who is constantly fielding "offers" that are below wholesale and, sometimes, below MELT!]
If you can get a second review, I'd sit the lady down with a note pad and some stickers. Go through what you can numbering the coins (stickers) as she writes notes regarding value and observations. She can compare apples to apples if anyone else views the material and you have a starting point if she ever decides to sell to you.
That's fair, ethical and shows trust.
Thanks for everyone's comments and thoughts - I find these scenarios pretty interesting. Human behavior is always a wild card!
I offered to spend essentially an entire weekend going through the collection for a pretty reasonable $200 credit against purchases to organize and catalog it so that it's fully prepped for sale. The granddaughter and her mother declined and said they would do it themselves... they didn't want to spend the money.
It looks like I'll get another swing at some pickups tomorrow, but otherwise, I dont think the outcome will be a positive one: they dont trust anyone and feel they can handle the full sale of everything themselves although they haven't been involved with numismatics before...
Monetizing a lot of dreck with a few quality coins in the mix should be very simple. You simply make an offer for the coins that make sense to you and give opportunity for her to get competitive bids. And then offer 2x face (or some reasonable value to you) for the rest of the coins. But the rest will sit in your inventory for many years. But that is how a White Knight might handle this situation.
Or suggest giving the dreck to a charity of their choice and writing them off?
OINK
2x face? I can't think of anything for which is the right number.
I got a good laugh out of this. Human nature I guess for them to be skeptical, but sad that supposedly intelligent people don't respect the value of an experienced advocate. I expect that they are in for a tremendous amount of frustration and disappointment. What a thing to inherit.
There is no "right number". The question is how much dreck can you liquidate in one year. 2x was only a suggestion of value, but it might be 10x. But you have to aspire to recoup your investment in under one year. And the inventory left is what you make after one year.
I would do that deal.......if I did not have a day time job that is a little more profitable.
OINK
I agree that distrustful people are very difficult to deal with.
You have more patience than I do.
I recall one time I was in line at the local bank (where all the tellers knew me and sometimes sent me leads, etc.) and in front of me was a very old woman cashing in a bag of coins.
My ears perked up when I heard the beautiful chirp of silver hitting a counter.
The teller told the woman (who was going to deposit the silver dollars for face value) "Oh, you're in luck today. Behind you is a man who knows all about these. He will help you. You really shouldn't deposit these in the bank."
The elderly woman allowed me to look through the dollars, all common, nothing even close to unc and no better dates at all.
At the time, I think common silver dollars were going for $12 each. I told her I would pay her $10 per coin straight through. Mind you, this is 10x what she was getting ready to deposit them for.
She squinted her eyes at me, and with catlike reflexes that I had not imagined her 90 year old body could still possess, swooped the coins into the sack she had them in, and rudely pushed me out of the way as she left, clutching the bag as if I was a thief.
People are weird, sometimes, distrustful and weird. I realize that the elderly are often victimized, and I understand her paranoia about that. I realize she didn't know me and didn't know that I would never take advantage of an older person (although in this business.....I am aware of many who, unfortunately, do just that.)
Her coins went from no value above face...to 10x....to (in her mind...maybe 1000x) in an instant.
And with people like that, if you offered $1,000 a coin, they'd still think you were ripping them off because if you offered that much they would then think they must be worth much much more.
There is always a "right number" based on wholesale or sub-wholesale value. Any dealer knows the numbers.
That is a great story and I believe it is fairly common. I was talking to a dealer friend and the conversation went to lowball offers some b&m dealers offer and he had a similar take to yours. He said, in defense of some of those lowball offers, if I had a customer come in with an accumulation of coins that they acquired I would take a quick inventory and give them a fair but wholesale offer for everything. He said that almost always ended in a quick smooth purchase. On the other hand, if I took more time and made a more detailed inventory and searched for some things I could pay more for, they would be less receptive and less likely to sell.
Had round 2 yesterday afternoon. I think the experience from the first meeting and a lot of prepwork helped make things easier - along with me bringing my laptop.
We got to sort through everything on hand a 2nd time. As we went, I pulled all the presidential dollars, 'special' parks quarters, etc along with average stacks of $2 bills for a 'deposit' pile. There was probably 200-400 just in face there.
I picked up another nice mix of Morgans and interesting pieces. This time around, she decided they were going to hold the higher $ ticket items but was pretty flexible about the lower $ material. This pretty much excluded some of the nicer morgans and the currency collection. Most of the pre-1900s coin material outside of slabbed Morgans came from HSN/TV networks, so condition was horrible.
She showed me a binder of what I believe were obsolete notes from all different states and the $496 price tag a local dealer had given. At $13 a piece, I suggested she pass on the offer. There were some very neat late 1800s/early 1900s notes in there as well.
I continued to make some strategy suggestions to her and try to gauge their timing and what they were wanting for the collection. Sounds like they might lean towards an auction. I suggested essentially wholesaling the modern/mint material, selling the junk then considering local auction for remaining higher quality material. There's an auction house in the area that is pretty good.
To a couple of the comments - I'm a smaller-time collector that's been involved for about 20 of my 33 years, so I don't have a bankroll to even make an offer on the collection, but seeing what was there, I think picking up a couple pieces here and there was a much better proposition than having to deal with it even if they did sell me the whole thing, regardless of how unsure they are.
As an experiment I took 5 of the pieces I picked up last time to a dealer this past Saturday and got their offers. On 3 of the low dollar items I was just a little bit better (ex: $35 instead of dealer's $27) however on 2 $90-100 range pieces, I paid $60~ ea where the dealer offered 30/35 ea. I showed this to her and I think it had a strong affect in demonstrating as a tool what she might see with a dealer vs someone like me.
I'll probably let this thread fade away at this point although I'll try to keep tabs down the road on how they do. Experiences like this seem to be very good for learning and developing one's skill and understanding of the hobby. I'd take an opportunity like this over a coin show every time.
Appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.
I remember looking at a bunch of dreck coins one time from a seller, a couple of interesting old German silver mark pieces, a couple of silver 64 Kennedy's , some wheats and old nickels and a few old foreign coins. I made the seller an offer of $40 for everything (mostly based on silver content). He wanted more and walked away. Came back later and said a "collector" bought a couple of coins for $20. So he would sell the remainder of coins to me the $40 now. I looked at the lot- the few silver coins were all gone. I told him I would now offer $5 for lot and was being generous. I explained to him what the "collector" had done. He shook his head and said he should have taken my offer and instead wasted his time. I said exactly- I told him I had made a fair offer. LOL