Can you request PCGS to not publicize a discovery Double Die
jessewvu
Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
Say I found a double die as a discovery piece and wanted to get it graded to ensure it was a truely new double die. Could I request PCGS not alert anyone to the discovery so I could then continue searching for more in the raw?
Not a scenario I have right now but made me wonder for those folks who have found discovery pieces and wanted to keep it quiet.
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I think PCGS will do what they normally do and give it a PCGS coin number. I don't think they will play that game.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't think so - if it is not in the redbook or Cherrypickers guide or any of the other approved references, it will just get a grade.
I would check any 'new' double dies on variety vista and see if it has already been discovered.
If you are that concerned might be best to just keep searching for more examples before sending it in. If you also let me know I can look, too.
Best thing to do when you discover it is to send it to Ken Potter at CW and let him announce your discovery OR (not as good) do the write-up and photo yourself and send a press release to CW and NN.
When a TPGS get's a new discovery they like the publicity. Problem is, I discovered two unknown major varieties (now published) in the past and a major grading service would not certify them as a new discovery until another turned up! Their loss...
Do you think PCGS is scrutinizing every coin to see if it's a variety?
The answer is no.
Besides the fact that most any variety post-1996 is on the minor side (with very few exceptions) they are grading your coin and moving on. Not running to CoinWorld to spread the news.
For example, I submitted the 1988 Doubled Ear Lincoln cent, which is nearly as strong as the 1984 dbld ear. At the time, it was not yet in the Cherrypicker Guide so they didn't assign it any number. Nor did they even notice anything except that it was MS63RB.
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Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
CONECA would also be a good place to send anything new-www.coneca.com. I think they're updating the website right now but it should be up and ru8nning soon.
@DCW said: "Do you think PCGS is scrutinizing every coin to see if it's a variety?"
Fortunately, PCGS is not the only TPGS although they are the subject of the thread. You would probably be surprised to know how many unattributed coins sent in by customers are attributed for free - probably even including our host.
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Reediculous
Only Mr. Wiles can do new varieties .
Ken Potter is retired, so don't send him any coins ..
That's funny....I seem to remember confirming and publicizing the 1919 Doubled Die Obverse dime.........
TD
Not for every minor variety...
That dime went to many places .
Before it went to Anacs, it was sent to Coneca ,
Here's a little write up from cointalk on that .
PCGS/NGC will only recognize them if it's in books/reference - since this won't for awhile, CONECA usually sends discovery pieces to ANACS with a letter to get them certified as discovery pieces (where I couldn't do that with PCGS/NGC). ANACS already reached out to me and it will be going there once the CONECA folks are done with their documentation.
Here's the link .
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1919-mercury-dime-ddo-discovery-piece.259644/
It went to those places after I had confirmed it as a Doubled Die, and written the press release that went to Coin World and Numismatic News.
Here's the link.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2015/02/1919-winged-liberty-head-dime-has-doubled-die-obverse.html#
Was a great discovery piece .
I remember when the 26 was found .
First went to Anacs, had to be sent to Mr. Wiles and then back to Anacs .
I know the owner of the coin ....
This is how fake news starts. LOL
I love the Political forums .
I'm on it everyday ........
Ok, forget Pcgs. Could one request a major variety attributer keep the news quiet.
Just wondering who gets to make the news of a new discovery variety “public”.
I don’t want to get into the morality of doing so, just the formalities of it.
CONECA and their team of experts, of which James Wiles is one (I am another - for FE and Indian cents) are where new varieties are assigned. ANACS does not attribute new varieties. They submit any unlisted or possible new variety to CONECA. PCGS and NGC do not attribute new varieties, nor do they list new varieties until they are published. Even then, they go through a process. PCGS uses the Cherrypicker's Guide, but also will expand into listing all die pairs in areas like all Seated dimes. A series that Gerry Fortin has published an extensive on-line reference for.
You're close Stash, and your 2nd post as well at least with the dime.
Obviously, the publicity part was out the window when I posted threads on 4 coin forums, and Tom wrote the press release.
The coin 1st went to Bill Fivaz, then John Wexler, then James Wiles, who forwarded it to ANACS. But I could have sent it into ANACS via any of those 3. ANACS has agreements with them (and others I'm sure) to certify coins with their specific numbers (FS, WDDO, CONECA DDO Numbers).
But... it didn't have to go in that order. Once Bill had it, and confirmed it as a Doubled Die and saw the verification piece and gave it the FS-101, I could have had HIM send it to ANACS, and only had it annotated with the FS-101 and Discovery piece. But being a somewhat large discovery, they asked it be allowed to travel to "The big 3" so to speak, so it went to John next, who assigned it his WDDO-001 #. Again, I could have had John send it to ANACS with a letter stating Bill gave it FS-101, and it's a Wexler WDDO-001 and had it authenticated there. But it was better in this case to then send it on to James who gave it the CONECA DDO-001 number. He then sent it into ANACS with the letter saying Bill gave it the FS-101, Wexler blessed it as WDDO-001, and he assigned it DDO-001. ANACS got it primarily because they reached out to me via the forums after reading about it and its journey and offered to grade it for free. They then did a press release/article about "ANACS Grades First 1919 DDO" type of thing.
So... with ANACS, I could have sent it into them via any of those 3 with documentation. But as you and others stated, if I sent it direct to ANACS, they couldn't annotate it with anything other than VF20 since at the time it was unpublished. They don't verify new discoveries, rather require it come through one of their trusted partners.
The thing with PCGS & NGC is they typically only do varieties published in a list of sources, CPG being one. In this case.... once the coin was identified and sent to Bill Fivaz, he started an e-mail chain with a dozen or so very powerful folks - QDB, Ken Bresett, all the bigger variety folks, as well as the Variety guys from PCGS/NGC. David Lange was on there too. They were all kept in the loop, had pictures shared, and at least with NGC - as soon as it was deemed good, David added it to the NGC variety plus service. They did this even without it being in a current CPG (still waiting BTW) but Bill said it was going in, so they did it. The PCGS Variety person took note, and it took a little bit longer for them to add it. The #3 coin was sent in soon after, but did not get the designation as a different variety person saw it instead of the one in the e-mail chain. As soon as I let them know what happened with Bjorn's coin (#3) PCGS asked for it back and fixed the error.
Normally, PCGS will only attribute things in this long list of publications, but again in some cases (the dime) they will do it before it even hits those publications.
https://www.pcgs.com/varietyfaq
As for the Publicity - had I not made forum posts, let's say I reached out by PM to Capthenway who quietly had me send the coin out to Bill, who somehow got a confirmation coin without any publicity (Remember, Tom got #2 out of the woodwork by posting on a coin dealer network) I suppose it could have been sent to ANACS to get certified (If they themselves didn't do the press release) and I got it back without anyone knowing. But what fun would that have been? 8-)
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Over the years I have confirmed a number of varieties for people in strict confidence. Obviously I cannot tell you what they are, though one exception would be the 1872 DDR dime which Bill Fivaz sent to me (with the owner's permission) after the owner sent it to Bill and asked what the odd marks on the reverse were. The owner thought it might be a dual-denomination clash mark, but neither he nor Bill could match them to any other denomination. I deduced that it was an unprecedented doubled die with an almost 180 degree rotation between impressions, and returned it to Bill to publicize as he and the owner saw fit.
The press release for the 1919 DDO dime was written with StrikeOutXXX's permission.
TD
I know since none of the varieties experts ( companies ) communicate, the 26 only is listed on Coneca site . Why ? because that's the only company that seen it ...
If I were to find a new DDO or DDR or anything NEW.... I would have it attributed and not care about the publicity.... You cannot find them all.... It is just - to me - great fun to share such things. Then watch the excitement as others join in.... Cheers, RickO
That would be like withholding additions to the population numbers for a submitter, so that the submitter could sell before the population jumps, no?
Thanks for all the replies. I was just wondering how everything worked between the attribution and grading.
Obviously the TPGs want to publish the info to get new submissions and the discoverer would most definitely want folks to know their hard work paid off.
It's funny that you asked if PCGS would keep it quiet. As mentioned above, PCGS and NGC won't designate a variety without it being publicized (listed within a publication) first. In fact @StrikeOutXXX even had a problem getting PCGS to label his discovery coin as a "Discovery Coin". ANACS is the only place that will do that as long as the coin is accompanied by a letter by a listing expert.
I had made a discovery DDR on a 1913-D Buffalo Nickel. I sent the coin first to James Wiles and then to John Wexler. Both gave me a letter documenting the new discovery. I then sent the coin to ANACS for certification along with a copy of both letters asking ANACS to notate "Discovery Piece" on the holder. The coin came back from ANACS with the DDR-001 and WDDR-001 as well as Discovery Piece annotated on the label. At this point, nothing was publicized with the exception of me publicizing it prior to sending it to the experts for verification. I had posted images of the coin and the areas of doubling both here and on CT.
After the coin finally came back from ANACS, I reached out to Paul Gilkes of CoinWorld who did a write up about my coin. I wanted the coin publicized because I enjoy sharing. Because of that, @DIMEMAN found an example among his collection. I really got a kick out of that. Since then, however, I have not heard much at all on this variety.
Publicizing a new discovery does not mean every variety hunter out there will then put that piece on their radar. My piece was very minor compared to the 1919 DDO Dime. The amount of interest in a new variety depends on the magnitude of that variety.
Yep, I didn’t know the process... I learned a lot in this thread.
I just meant the regular number as usual, not a special new designation.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I'll repeat: "Best thing to do when you discover it is to send it to Ken Potter at CW and let him announce your discovery OR (not as good) do the write-up and photo yourself and send a press release to CW and NN. When a TPGS get's a new discovery they like the publicity. Problem is, ..."
@stash replied to this post with this nonsense: "Only Mr. Wiles can do new varieties. Ken Potter is retired, so don't send him any coins ..."
First of all, as I wrote and it has been confirmed, PCGS and NGC will not attribute a new variety unless another is found (or published). News Flash: Any competent authenticator working at either of those services can have a label printed with 19XX 10c DDO on it!
It's very unfortunate all the hoops a collector needs to jump thru. In my experience, over a dozen newly discovered varieties have been slabbed in the past as a discovery coin WITHOUT any of the companies, organizations, or individuals mentioned in this thread EVEN ALERTED of its existence. They found out when everyone else did. So let's get serious! I read Potter's column. He alerts us to new varieties. As I suggested to the OP, send the coin or images to CW so it gets published. All the fancy #'s will be assigned later by the "expert."
I can understand the TPGs being cautious about authenticating and attributing some new varieties, but some varieties just speak for themselves. The 1919 DDO dime was one such coin. A competent TPG with competent error and variety people, including but not limited to Fred Weinberg and David Lange, should be able to speak authoritatively about a coin both a clear variety and in decent condition, even if it is unique.
I just happened to have a 13-D that I have had several years......and there it was the DDR!
Ken Potter has changed profession.
He is now the photographer for Detroit Rock City and that takes up all his time .
https://www.facebook.com/groups/795538003848410/
Go ahead and send him your coins insider and you'll see he's not doing any coins anymore .
Sure, he still writes articles for coin world and etc .
But he's done doing coins for coneca ...
And yes Insider, he's still on the Coneca Board ...
@stash said: "Ken Potter has changed profession. He is now the photographer for Detroit Rock City and that takes up all his time. Go ahead and send him your coins insider and you'll see he's not doing any coins anymore .
Sure, he still writes articles for coin world and etc . But he's done doing coins for coneca ..."
I'm glad you know what Mr. Potter is doing. AS I said (obviously not clearly enough): Send the coin to Ken Potter. Now, what I should have said to be perfectly clear: Send the coin or the image to COIN WORLD! They will either publicize it or alert Mr. Potter so he can write it up in his column.
PS Then he is the only CONECA board member with a variety column in Coin World. Additionally, all the new discoveries he writes about were not his. They come from somewhere.
PS Keep CRH and good luck to you.