Original Feutchwanger cent design cast

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Zoins
Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 7, 2017 2:52AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I recently ran across this cast of a medal by John Milton (1759-1805) from the collection of Dr. William Blanding (1773-1857). Milton was a medalist that worked for The Royal Mint from 1787 to 1797. The cast copy had been in the Blanding family for 5 generations and was just sold by the Blanding Estate.

Anyone know more about this piece, either the original or the cast?

Here's the eBay auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1700-039-s-Milton-Eagle-plaque-Cast-copy-from-the-1800-039-s-Feuchtwanger-eagle-Rare-/302360953027

Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
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  • kiyote
    kiyote Posts: 5,633 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That is really neat. Thank you for sharing !

    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2017 3:07PM
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    I found two references to Milton's work described as "Eagle tearing a serpent" and "eagle and snake" from 1785 in T. Stainton's biography, "John Milton, Medallist, 1759-1805":

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Nice piece... and I am surprised it did not go for more $$.... Cheers, RickO

  • DMWJR
    DMWJR Posts: 6,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I would have loved to have had that. If you know the owner and they want to sell it ... :smile:

    Doug
  • oih82w8
    oih82w8 Posts: 13,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Thank you @Zoins for posting the images.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • TPRC
    TPRC Posts: 3,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I saw this and followed it, but did not bid....ebay and all that. I guess I was just skeptical that it was what it purported to be. If it was in a Steve Hayden or a Presidential auction, I would likely have bid. As an avid collector of feuchtwanger 1-cent pieces, I would be interested in knowing more about it.

    Tom

  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 10:51AM
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    Of the top of my head this example looks funky as the ones that I have seen are more oval and larger.

    Not something I would have touched as it could just as well be a pre patina aged cast center portion of belt buckle.

    That's my gut feeling that someone ended up thinking they ripped this and paid almost $600 for part of a belt buckle.

    The way the rims are rounded this was most likely in a chrome western rodeo type backing.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 10:55AM
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    Zoins let me know how many you want for $600 each as I'll proceed to call western wear stores once I know? ;)

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 11:32AM
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    Actually if you look on the back there's small circles with oxidation around them which might have been parts of the buckle removed.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 11:59AM
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    The red shows former connected rounds and the yellow machining marks.

    There's quite a few different type eagle & snake belt buckle designs out there.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • DMWJR
    DMWJR Posts: 6,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Good catch Broadstruck! With a little boredom on Friday night, I thought I would browse around and see if the mystery could be unraveled a little. Apparently this Dr. Blanding was a character and was written about in several works. He died in 1857, same year of the FE. He drew a map of a gold mine, and other indian maps. He collected other things. It makes you wonder if it was a contemporary piece/buckle he just had and the story grew from there? Did it get in the "estate" at some point after his death in 1857? Did someone model a belt buckle on a Feuchtwanger cent?

    It is too similar to not be related in some way to the 1837 token. Probably the correct scenario is that it is a belt buckle modeled on the token, and produced in the later half of the 19th century. Someone in the family added it and the story to the estate along the way.

    Fun question to ponder - and even better one - where is the Milton piece and what does it look like?

    Doug
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 9:30PM
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    @Broadstruck said:
    Of the top of my head this example looks funky as the ones that I have seen are more oval and larger.

    It would be great to see some pics of the ones you have seen :)

    It would also be great to see an original created by Milton.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 9:32PM
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    Here is something I ran across which is also very interesting. The image used for this piece and the Feutchwanger could have been created in the 1600s!

    The lower left corner in both of these says "P. Boel del." which as been used to attribute this to Pieter Boel (1626–1674): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_Boel

    Here are two engravings. They are similar but each has an additional caption.

    https://fineartamerica.com/featured/vulture-and-an-eagle-with-snake-print-maker-peeter-boel-peeter-boel-and-de-poilly.html

    https://fineartamerica.com/featured/vulture-and-an-eagle-with-snake-grard-scotin-grard-scotin-i.html

    Here's the signature in the lower left that says "P. Boel del."

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • DMWJR
    DMWJR Posts: 6,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Too Cool! The image history just got a little more interesting!

    Doug
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017 11:15PM
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    @DMWJR said:
    Too Cool! The image history just got a little more interesting!

    I wonder if I'm the first one to associate this Boel engraving with the Feutchwanger for the numismatic record? I'd be a bit surprised if I was but it would also be very cool :)

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • DMWJR
    DMWJR Posts: 6,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That would be very cool!

    How about a live shot ... :smiley:

    Doug
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2017 12:08AM
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    @Broadstruck said:
    Zoins let me know how many you want for $600 each as I'll proceed to call western wear stores once I know? ;)

    Nice offer but while I'm interested in finding more like the Blanding piece, I'm even more interested in an original Milton for comparison. Even if the above was used as a buckle it could still be a Milton cast.

    If you can find a Milton piece, please post pics here! :smiley:

    Though this isn't exactly the same, here's a belt buckle to get the search started!

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2017 4:08AM
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    @Zoins said:

    @Broadstruck said:
    Of the top of my head this example looks funky as the ones that I have seen are more oval and larger.

    It would be great to see some pics of the ones you have seen :)

    It would also be great to see an original created by Milton.

    I'm going to send an email to a collector who sold one or two earlier this year hoping he can send me his pics.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • 1940coupe
    1940coupe Posts: 661 ✭✭✭✭
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    Good score Zions finding this ! my opinion is its exactly want is said to be !

  • CascadeChris
    CascadeChris Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @TPRC said:
    I saw this and followed it, but did not bid....ebay and all that. I guess I was just skeptical that it was what it purported to be. If it was in a Steve Hayden or a Presidential auction, I would likely have bid. As an avid collector of feuchtwanger 1-cent pieces, I would be interested in knowing more about it.

    I honestly can't understand this line of thinking. If you don't play you can never win. Plus once you get it in hand you can make your own determination as to whether to keep it for price paid or send it back. To forego even playing baffles me. To each their own though I guess.

    The more you VAM..
  • 1940coupe
    1940coupe Posts: 661 ✭✭✭✭
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    I would like to hear Dan Carr's expert opinion on this !

  • Bigbuck1975
    Bigbuck1975 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @dcarr thoughts?

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Go back further. The basic imagery goes back to the Greeks

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @jmlanzaf said:
    Go back further. The basic imagery goes back to the Greeks

    Do you have an image of the Greek version?

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017 12:35PM
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    Good photos. The basic imagery is indeed similar. Reminds me of comparing Barber coinage to Greek coinage!

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017 12:33PM
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    @Zoins said:
    Good photos. The basic imagery is indeed similar. Reminds me of comparing Barber coinage to Greek coinage!

    Most u.s. coins had neo -classical imagery. The first truly American coin design was the buffalo nickel.

    And most modern u.s. coins are again neo- classical despite the dead presidents.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

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