@amwldcoin said:
I put my money where my mouth is! Sell me the coin I was defending where I can make a modest profit 10% or so and I will buy it! And I'm not talking about a crap coin..I'm talking about a coin on par with the coin I was defending. I recently saw the same date and grade sell on ebay for a couple hundred less and I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole even with a 10% ebay bucks offer...yes I could have bought it!
@Justacommeman said:
Yes amwldcoin was " accused"of selling coins at seemingly inflated prices in a recent thread and he refuted it vehemently. That was just one thread and he couldn't let it go.
Bruce has been putting up with bj nonsense for years.
mark
Why did you defend it? Why didn't you just let it go? Don't you realize that you were just making yourself look bad? Inquiring minds want to know...
He didn't threaten a lawsuit. That's a huge distinction.
He hasn't put up with one person's bs for over five years...
Bill Jones has had it out for Legend for years. Ever since he took George's comment "you can't afford that" (dealer slang for "it's on consignment, priced too high, don't waste your time") as a personal insult. He goes out of his way to negativity slant just about anything to do with Legend. Stating that he got the exact same coin from Heritage for 30% less (no mention of the non CAC Ngc holder) was the last straw. I'm over it and I'm gonna handle it.
@amwldcoin said:
I put my money where my mouth is! Sell me the coin I was defending where I can make a modest profit 10% or so and I will buy it! And I'm not talking about a crap coin..I'm talking about a coin on par with the coin I was defending. I recently saw the same date and grade sell on ebay for a couple hundred less and I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole even with a 10% ebay bucks offer...yes I could have bought it!
@Justacommeman said:
Yes amwldcoin was " accused"of selling coins at seemingly inflated prices in a recent thread and he refuted it vehemently. That was just one thread and he couldn't let it go.
Bruce has been putting up with bj nonsense for years.
mark
Why did you defend it? Why didn't you just let it go? Don't you realize that you were just making yourself look bad? Inquiring minds want to know...
He didn't threaten a lawsuit. That's a huge distinction.
He hasn't put up with one person's bs for over five years...
So he has been antagonistic towards you per your post for five years, and you cannot even recount one instance of an "actionable" comment?
You're angry. There is clearly bad blood between the two of you as you effectively acknowledge. Might it be possible that both of you allow your personal differences to color your views of each other's posts? Neither of you became successful in business by acting on whims and raw emotion.
Reflect on what was actually said. Your business partner wrote a blog post complaining about declining sales at a coin trade show. Bill comments that if sales are down "perhaps" (exact word) items were not priced competitively. This is nothing more than a restatement of the principles of supply and demand, and when business slows, pricing (i.e. supply and demand) are always potential factors especially in dynamic/fickle/thinly capitalized markets like the U.S. coin market. YOU and BILL both, as CEOs or former CEOs, obviously know that.
Second, Bill posted one anecdotal example of a "widget" (i.e. common coin) and gave anecdotal pricing information. There is nothing actionable about that, and more importantly, the statement doesn't even mean that Heritage always undercuts Legend. No one firm can always be the lowest price. Also, you don't think your customers price shop on widely available coins? Most of your clientele are well off financially, and most wealthy people don't get that way by throwing money blindly. I imagine most are quite frugal with their money which is why they remain wealthy. The point being, none of Bill Jones's comments hurt Legend. Finally, Bill posted the following:
You company is a high class operation that sells the best of the PCGS - CAC products. Those items don't come cheap. If you shop all 400 or 500 tables at a major show, you are going to find something similar when it comes to "widgets." That is just a fact of the coin market.
In other words, you can find generics and cross them/sticker them yourself and get "deals" (your word in a subsequent reply). You even agreed with Bill Jones on that point.
So in summary:
Bill says that if sales are down, "perhaps" pricing could be a factor (supply and demand); AND
You can sometimes buy coins in the same grade and quality that you could cross over and sticker yourself for a deal (to which you agreed).
I'm at a loss for words as to what the real argument is about here other than personal vendetta.
@amwldcoin I just got back from yoga so I'm typing this calmly. At least in your thread others posted other coins to illustrate your perceived price gouging. In bj's case Just lobbed a hand grenade and said take my word for it the coin I got 30% cheaper was of similar quality. I take that with a serious grain of salt considered the ax he has to grind.
In the thread you started you complained about someone returning a coin because he said he could find it for much cheaper. Maybe as much as 50% cheaper. Others posted auction results illustrating how much more your coin was and you countered with, " my coin is much nicer." Others posted pictures of other coins that they said were as nice or nicer and ALSO 30% or so cheaper. You said, " no way, my coin is nicer". You countered about 30 posts tit for tat. Legend never got that chance. BJ just ate a bologna sandwich farted and left the room in his $5 Liberty example
I think you have a lot of nerve to be honest with you. Namaste
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
"At the start of this Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. I ventured to say that perhaps her pricing might be to blame, and I cited an example which was admittedly anecdotal."
Bill: Here is a totally unbiased response to your comment....
Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. She also commented on a few different occasions recently that attendance was down at these shows as well. Attendance and sales go hand in hand - right? Hence, her consideration of possibly even cutting back attending a show or two here or there in the future from what I read. That all flows - right? In fact, if she fails to attend a show due to what she believes is poor collector attendance, one can predict her show sales at that particular show will drop by 100% overnight !
The issue of pricing really does not flow. There is no information I read that Laura raised her prices at any point recently. If one kept their pricing steady for the past 10 years (say 15% markups from cost on average) then it would not make a lot of sense that price would be to blame for slowing receipts (especially if there were record sales at those price points in the past).
If one thinks about it logically, the easy answer is that the poor attendance (among other factors for which dealers have little or no control) is affecting a dealers' sales at these shows. At least, that is the information I concluded from reading the various market reports and why I will personally continue to not "set up" at most shows unless I saw a trend of sharply rising attendance at these events.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. She also commented on a few different occasions recently that attendance was down at these shows as well. Attendance and sales go hand in hand - right? Hence, her consideration of possibly even cutting back attending a show or two here or there in the future from what I read. That all flows - right? In fact, if she fails to attend a show due to what she believes is poor collector attendance, one can predict her show sales at that particular show will drop by 100% overnight !
The issue of pricing really does not flow. There is no information I read that Laura raised her prices at any point recently. If one kept their pricing steady for the past 10 years (say 15% markups from cost on average) then it would not make a lot of sense that price would be to blame for slowing receipts (especially if there were record sales at those price points in the past).
Not necessarily. In this market, the prices can fluctuate very quickly and often in a negative direction. When dealing with coins that trade infrequently whether that be in the right plastic/CAC combo or absolute/condition rarity, you may list an item at a reasonable price compared to what the last few examples sold for only to find that the market has deteriorated even from six months to a year ago. The difference is likely to be even greater for coins that last traded years ago. That is not the fault of any dealer, but merely the reality of the perils of the current market. I learned this the hard way when buying a gold coin that I bought and subsequently sold to CAC. I had a tough time selling it for a fair price except to CAC. The example provided in this thread was for a relatively common coin that could be affected by this phenomenon (i.e. tough to find in CAC, but easy to find non-CAC and some of the more prevalent non-CAC pricing might be more illustrative of market trends).
And before anyone comments, I know that the market is beginning to show some signs of stabilization and/or improvements, but we are still not in a seller's market except for a few niches. I also respectfully disagree with the notion that I seem to recall seeing asserted in previous Hot Topics or Market Reports that coins that rarely trade always appreciate. One of the areas that I had an interest in, 1936-1942 cameo proofs which are not common coins, have shown the opposite effect noticeably for copper and nickel coinage. Whether this was a factor in the example given or not, I don't know because I am no actively following anyone's inventory as I am exiting this market completely.
Perhaps you should go reread that thread and look at what I see as inaccurate information! Not a single example was close to 50% of the price I sold my coin for! Even taking the lowest auction example do you not think many dealers are buying at auction and marking them up? The returnee did not say he could find it much cheaper! He simply said I over charged him...Turned out he had a medical emergency and needed the money back! I did not block him from buying from me after the dust settled and he offered to pay my shipping to him! SO THERE! There was much disagreement on what was and was not quality!
@Justacommeman said: @amwldcoin I just got back from yoga so I'm typing this calmly. At least in your thread others posted other coins to illustrate your perceived price gouging. In bj's case Just lobbed a hand grenade and said take my word for it the coin I got 30% cheaper was of similar quality. I take that with a serious grain of salt considered the ax he has to grind.
In the thread you started you complained about someone returning a coin because he said he could find it for much cheaper. Maybe as much as 50% cheaper. Others posted auction results illustrating how much more your coin was and you countered with, " my coin is much nicer." Others posted pictures of other coins that they said were as nice or nicer and ALSO 30% or so cheaper. You said, " no way, my coin is nicer". You countered about 30 posts tit for tat. Legend never got that chance. BJ just ate a bologna sandwich farted and left the room in his $5 Liberty example
I think you have a lot of nerve to be honest with you. Namaste
You're a peach.I reread it. I'll let your thread speak for itself. I bumped it to the top. FYI I have no problem with you charging whatever you want.
I just thought you were being a hypocrite. That's all
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A hypocrite if you don't mind scratches,cleaning etc on a coin!
@Justacommeman said:
You're a peach.I reread it. I'll let your thread speak for itself. I bumped it to the top. FYI I have no problem with you charging whatever you want.
I just thought you were being a hypocrite. That's all
You are missing the point. You called out TDN for defending himself for alleged over pricing and for challenging BJ. You defended yourself for the very same thing. TDN has been putting up with it for years yet you want him to turn the other cheek yet you couldn't.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Maybe so if I think about it. Did TDN have a Wabbit rat dinging in his dung pile? That thread would have only been about ebay crap if it hadn't been for the RAT! I still agree with everything I said in that post after reading it again! I need to sell a few of the Heritage swooners my rejects!
@Justacommeman said:
You are missing the point. You called out TDN for defending himself for alleged over pricing and for challenging BJ. You defended yourself for the very same thing. TDN has been putting up with it for years yet you want him to turn the other cheek yet you couldn't.
@amwldcoin said:
Perhaps you should go reread that thread and look at what I see as inaccurate information! Not a single example was close to 50% of the price I sold my coin for! Even taking the lowest auction example do you not think many dealers are buying at auction and marking them up? The returnee did not say he could find it much cheaper! He simply said I over charged him...Turned out he had a medical emergency and needed the money back! I did not block him from buying from me after the dust settled and he offered to pay my shipping to him! SO THERE! There was much disagreement on what was and was not quality!
@Justacommeman said: @amwldcoin I just got back from yoga so I'm typing this calmly. At least in your thread others posted other coins to illustrate your perceived price gouging. In bj's case Just lobbed a hand grenade and said take my word for it the coin I got 30% cheaper was of similar quality. I take that with a serious grain of salt considered the ax he has to grind.
In the thread you started you complained about someone returning a coin because he said he could find it for much cheaper. Maybe as much as 50% cheaper. Others posted auction results illustrating how much more your coin was and you countered with, " my coin is much nicer." Others posted pictures of other coins that they said were as nice or nicer and ALSO 30% or so cheaper. You said, " no way, my coin is nicer". You countered about 30 posts tit for tat. Legend never got that chance. BJ just ate a bologna sandwich farted and left the room in his $5 Liberty example
I think you have a lot of nerve to be honest with you. Namaste
mark
One more thing and I'll let it go. I was being kind on the math. You "sold" the coin for $850. Others cited the last four coins sold for $410-$520 via auction records. I'm no math major but......your closing in on 100% territory.
It would Be very easy for me to say in a thread I passed on a like coin from you because I found one for 50% cheaper and make you look bad. That's exactly what Bill did to Legend. How would you like if I or someone did it to you? I already know the answer to that. You wouldn't
How do you know that the Legend coin wasn't exponentially better like you stated your coin was?
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@amwldcoin said:
Maybe so if I think about it. Did TDN have a Wabbit rat dinging in his dung pile? That thread would have only been about ebay crap if it hadn't been for the RAT! I still agree with everything I said in that post after reading it again! I need to sell a few of the Heritage swooners my rejects!
@Justacommeman said:
You are missing the point. You called out TDN for defending himself for alleged over pricing and for challenging BJ. You defended yourself for the very same thing. TDN has been putting up with it for years yet you want him to turn the other cheek yet you couldn't.
@tradedollarnut said:
Bill Jones has had it out for Legend for years. Ever since he took George's comment "you can't afford that" (dealer slang for "it's on consignment, priced too high, don't waste your time") as a personal insult. He goes out of his way to negativity slant just about anything to do with Legend. Stating that he got the exact same coin from Heritage for 30% less (no mention of the non CAC Ngc holder) was the last straw. I'm over it and I'm gonna handle it.
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn't been to a coin show in over 20 years, is "you can't afford that" commonly interpreted to mean that it is overpriced and not a good buy?
@tradedollarnut said:
Bill Jones has had it out for Legend for years. Ever since he took George's comment "you can't afford that" (dealer slang for "it's on consignment, priced too high, don't waste your time") as a personal insult. He goes out of his way to negativity slant just about anything to do with Legend. Stating that he got the exact same coin from Heritage for 30% less (no mention of the non CAC Ngc holder) was the last straw. I'm over it and I'm gonna handle it.
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn't been to a coin show in over 20 years, is "you can't afford that" commonly interpreted to mean that it is overpriced and not a good buy?
It sounds like a misunderstanding that could have been cleared up long ago to me.
If you will look at the results the only viable comparison was the coin which was compared to mine which was a recent Heritage sale. 3 of the 5 results were from ebay so there is really no way to compare them to my coin,have any idea what they looked like,whether it was 1 coin sold 3 times or 3 different coins,and whether the sale actually took place as we all know about sellers who shill bid their listings! The 5th coin was a 6 year old heritage auction result.
@amwldcoin said:
Perhaps you should go reread that thread and look at what I see as inaccurate information! Not a single example was close to 50% of the price I sold my coin for! Even taking the lowest auction example do you not think many dealers are buying at auction and marking them up? The returnee did not say he could find it much cheaper! He simply said I over charged him...Turned out he had a medical emergency and needed the money back! I did not block him from buying from me after the dust settled and he offered to pay my shipping to him! SO THERE! There was much disagreement on what was and was not quality!
@Justacommeman said: @amwldcoin I just got back from yoga so I'm typing this calmly. At least in your thread others posted other coins to illustrate your perceived price gouging. In bj's case Just lobbed a hand grenade and said take my word for it the coin I got 30% cheaper was of similar quality. I take that with a serious grain of salt considered the ax he has to grind.
In the thread you started you complained about someone returning a coin because he said he could find it for much cheaper. Maybe as much as 50% cheaper. Others posted auction results illustrating how much more your coin was and you countered with, " my coin is much nicer." Others posted pictures of other coins that they said were as nice or nicer and ALSO 30% or so cheaper. You said, " no way, my coin is nicer". You countered about 30 posts tit for tat. Legend never got that chance. BJ just ate a bologna sandwich farted and left the room in his $5 Liberty example
I think you have a lot of nerve to be honest with you. Namaste
mark
One more thing and I'll let it go. I was being kind on the math. You "sold" the coin for $850. Others cited the last four coins sold for $410-$520 via auction records. I'm no math major but......your closing in on 100% territory.
It would Be very easy for me to say in a thread I passed on a like coin from you because I found one for 50% cheaper and make you look bad. That's exactly what Bill did to Legend. How would you like if I or someone did it to you? I already know the answer to that. You wouldn't
How do you know that the Legend coin wasn't exponentially better like you stated your coin was?
It's funny the direction this discussion has veered. What's at issue here is what I said in my original comment! I'm not defending either of the 2 coins in question and I doubt there could be a way to compare the 2 so that's a mute point.
As to NGC in the last year I have upgraded 10 or 12 nice original Barber Half's recently graded by NGC as F-VF by 10-15 points! Yes that is taking a F to VF and a VF to XF! Quite a few VG10's have gone into PCGS 12 and 15 holders as well!
@amwldcoin said:
Because there is a bigger following for PCGS coins and that's what most of my customers want. I crack the coins I need to maintain my PCGS inventory. If I have one in the same grade in a PCGS holder I don't crack it as a rule until I need a PCGS coin. I only submit as rule twice a year and everything is fair game without the added cost of PCGS grading until I do a submission.
You would be surprised how many times I am asked regarding a raw coin why I haven't had it graded!
@amwldcoin said:
I sell nice NGC coins quite a bit. Many I crack and have graded by PCGS. Those I sell in NGC holders I sell for what I think I can get for a PCGS graded coin less the cost for me to have it graded by PCGS(same as raw). Yes...I support the PCGS market! I guarantee you I get attacked more on my pricing than Legend ever thought about with the pride guides being so out of touch!
As to your last statement...Dang! I missed a good buy if they did!
@amwldcoin said:
This happens everyday to pretty much any business you can think of. My personal opinion is you are doing more damage to your brand than you are helping. This back and forth is degrading to Kindergarden-Grade School banter IMHO!
@amwldcoin said:
No offense...but I think you are pushing a bit to hard! People are entitled to their opinions. It happens everyday and those that let them roll off their shoulder or turn the other cheek always do better...especially in business!
@tradedollarnut said:
He's like the slightly crazy uncle that every family has. Ignore him and leave him to his delusions and he's some what harmless...
No. People are not entitled to post harmful one sided and incorrect assertions even if they are their opinions Sorry
So let's be clear about one thing then. You seem to be into selling nice examples of mid grade circulated Barber Halves. Those that might not know that space might think your prices are a bit inflated (I don't by the way). But disregard that group entirely. If someone purchased a comparable mid grade Barber half as you might have in your inventory in an NGC holder (which I know to be very possible) for a material discount to the prices you are asking for you PCGS CAC coins, and argued that your inventory is overpriced, that is okay? Because that is pretty much exactly what happened here.
Well the fact that you claim to crack out NGC coins to have them cross at PCGS tells me everything I need to know. Why not just keep them in the NGC holders and sell them for the lesser price as you claim to do in other instances? Sounds like a lot less hassle for you and a "good buy" for your customer.
You're just making Legend's case and proving my comments on this thread. PCGS is in more demand and as a result, those coins sell for MORE even if the coin is the exact same coin which was crossed. This is nothing new to most of us and nothing new to BillJones.
What's more, there is and has been a growing clamor for those PCGS coins to have a CAC approval (especially at the deeper end of the collecting pool), which increases the price even more.
@amwldcoin said:
Maybe so if I think about it. Did TDN have a Wabbit rat dinging in his dung pile? That thread would have only been about ebay crap if it hadn't been for the RAT! I still agree with everything I said in that post after reading it again! I need to sell a few of the Heritage swooners my rejects!
@Justacommeman said:
You are missing the point. You called out TDN for defending himself for alleged over pricing and for challenging BJ. You defended yourself for the very same thing. TDN has been putting up with it for years yet you want him to turn the other cheek yet you couldn't.
Legend posted an article on their blog about the value of shows in general and certain shows particularly. Someone posts it here for discussion.
Debate derails in two ways:
(1) someone complains that Legend's pricing is too high by comparing a generic PCGS CAC gold to a generic NGC non-CAC gold and refusing to acknowledge that current day pricing factors in the plastic and the sticker (whether this is fair or not is not being disputed)
(2) some defend the criticism as being unfair, with one dealer in particular (not in Legend's market) specifically criticising the defense of Legend as being too vigorous yet will defend his own pricing approach also very vigorously
Legend posted an article on their blog about the value of shows in general and certain shows particularly. Someone posts it here for discussion.
Debate derails in two ways:
(1) someone complains that Legend's pricing is too high by comparing a generic PCGS CAC gold to a generic NGC non-CAC gold and refusing to acknowledge that current day pricing factors in the plastic and the sticker (whether this is fair or not is not being disputed)
(2) some defend the criticism as being unfair, with one dealer in particular (not in Legend's market) specifically criticising the defense of Legend as being too vigorous yet will defend his own pricing approach also very vigorously
How am I doing?
You missed the entire part where many like me stayed neutral in the initial debate, but thought TDN was being melodramatic and over the top by threatening a retaliatory and baseless lawsuit.
In my opinion, saying something is actionable
is not the same as a 'threatening a retaliatory & baseless lawsuit'.
(can I duck down now?)
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
@Davideo said:
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn't been to a coin show in over 20 years, is "you can't afford that" commonly interpreted to mean that it is overpriced and not a good buy?
Dealers sometimes use that to mean exactly that, especially when speaking to another dealer or a very experienced collector.
I realize that there are other posts,
but my point was that if TD said
something is actionable, that
is not the same as it being a threat
or a retaliatory statement, imo.
I'm not a lawyer, but to me
'actionable' is not the same as a 'threat'.
(maybe that's why I'm NOT a lawyer)
I have no dog in this fight, just thought
I'd make an observation /opinion.....
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
In my opinion, saying something is actionable
is not the same as a 'threatening a retaliatory & baseless lawsuit'.
(can I duck down now?)
Before you get up, put your helmet on top of your rifle and slowly raise the helmet up.
As cameonut, and the other lawyers can attest to, there are numerous nuances to a libel claim.
"Saying something" is generally protected if true.
On the other hand if you say something detrimental to a person's business, you could be looking at libel per se. Where proving damages (which sometimes can be hard to prove) is not a requirement.
As to TDN statement of something being actionable, as a lawyer I take that to mean a lawsuit could be forthcoming.
@FredWeinberg said:
Cameonut - I guess I'm confused -
I realize that there are other posts,
but my point was that if TD said
something is actionable, that
is not the same as it being a threat
or a retaliatory statement, imo.
I'm not a lawyer, but to me
'actionable' is not the same as a 'threat'.
(maybe that's why I'm NOT a lawyer)
I have no dog in this fight, just thought
I'd make an observation /opinion.....
Fair enough, and I'll bite. There was more than just the one statement.
By asking BJ to "desist" in making "actionable statements" (as in "cause of action"), TDN is clearly implying the possibility of legal action regardless of whether it ever comes to fruition. The intent to suppress comments and behaviors from BJ and to take on a threatening tone seems inescapable to me, especially when viewed in light of other comments.
TDN's never denies the implicit threat or what could be inferred to be an implicit threat when called on it. When it is suggested that there is nothing remotely actionable in this thread, TDN indicates that BJ has disparaged Legend in the thread and has made a pattern of statements that is meant to discredit and disparage Legend. He further opines that although the initial statement may seem innocuous on its face, that his pattern of statements makes it and those other statements actionable.
TDN makes the comment that he will flag every post that BJ has made that TDN believes is disparaging of Legend so that it will be easier to find later. He also concludes at some point that he is tired of BJ and is going "to handle it" or language to that effect indicating action.
In light of suggesting a statement is actionable, accusing someone of a prolonged pattern of damaging and disparaging comments, and concluding that he is going to "handle it," I'm not sure that I would interpret the statements in any other way than the threat of a lawsuit.
OK, I see what you're saying, taking
in the totality of all of the posts.
I'm not sure I agree 100%, but
that's why I don't practice law.
I'll leave now - lol
Hopefully no harm/no foul
with any party, including you,
from my post(s)
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
@FredWeinberg said:
OK, I see what you're saying, taking
in the totality of all of the posts.
I'm not sure I agree 100%, but
that's why I don't practice law.
I'll leave now - lol
Hopefully no harm/no foul
with any party, including you,
from my post(s)
I enjoy talking with other posters, even when it results in healthy debates like this thread did. Diversity of opinion is valuable and makes threads interesting, which is one of the reasons that I find that back and forth between TDN and BJ saddening.
@wondercoin said:
"At the start of this Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. I ventured to say that perhaps her pricing might be to blame, and I cited an example which was admittedly anecdotal."
Bill: Here is a totally unbiased response to your comment....
Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. She also commented on a few different occasions recently that attendance was down at these shows as well. Attendance and sales go hand in hand - right? Hence, her consideration of possibly even cutting back attending a show or two here or there in the future from what I read. That all flows - right? In fact, if she fails to attend a show due to what she believes is poor collector attendance, one can predict her show sales at that particular show will drop by 100% overnight !
The issue of pricing really does not flow. There is no information I read that Laura raised her prices at any point recently. If one kept their pricing steady for the past 10 years (say 15% markups from cost on average) then it would not make a lot of sense that price would be to blame for slowing receipts (especially if there were record sales at those price points in the past).
If one thinks about it logically, the easy answer is that the poor attendance (among other factors for which dealers have little or no control) is affecting a dealers' sales at these shows. At least, that is the information I concluded from reading the various market reports and why I will personally continue to not "set up" at most shows unless I saw a trend of sharply rising attendance at these events.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
When was the last time you "set up" at a major show? Let's take Winter FUN for an example.
Dealers blame collectors for not showing up. Collectors blame dealers for getting spoiled by the Internet, and leaving early so why bother. Stman translation.....OY VEY next.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I don't understand all of the drama. I spent a fair amount of time looking at coins, getting second opinions, and learning how to grade what I do and want to collect.
I decide what coin at what grade I want to purchase, and what I want to pay for it. If you buy at a show, most dealers want full retail, more if the coin is very nice for the grade, unless they feel they want to unload it.
If you don't want to pay full retail, you pay attention to what's out there, and be patient. I waited four years before finding a Barber Half I liked, eight years finding a Heraldic Eagle Bust Dollar I liked, and twelve years finding a Capped Bust Half I liked.
I don't have a problem waiting. If you want X coin now, you pay what is asked. That's all.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Legend posted an article on their blog about the value of shows in general and certain shows particularly. Someone posts it here for discussion.
Debate derails in two ways:
(1) someone complains that Legend's pricing is too high by comparing a generic PCGS CAC gold to a generic NGC non-CAC gold and refusing to acknowledge that current day pricing factors in the plastic and the sticker (whether this is fair or not is not being disputed)
(2) some defend the criticism as being unfair, with one dealer in particular (not in Legend's market) specifically criticising the defense of Legend as being too vigorous yet will defend his own pricing approach also very vigorously
How am I doing?
You missed the entire part where many like me stayed neutral in the initial debate, but thought TDN was being melodramatic and over the top by threatening a retaliatory and baseless lawsuit.
Yes, true, I skipped over that part. Deliberately. But since you brought it up, I will share my opinion on that piece.
I think there is no need for lawyer types to come on here and get all lawyerly on us. There is a fairly simple way to look at the side debate (the main one being Laura's comments about show worthiness), and that is was BillJones being fair in his comment about Legend and was TDN being fair in defending Legend.
IMO, BillJones was not being fair. He ignored the current market reality of plastic and stickers on pricing. Yes, sure, the coin is the main event, but the plastic and stickers still matter in today's market. BillJones willfully ignored that when he asserted that Legend pricing is 30% higher than HA's NGC non-stickered widget equivalent.
Given the history between BillJones and Legend, where in my admittedly biased opinion BillJones is grossly wrong, unfair, and bull-headed, I think it is totally reasonable for TDN to be very upset. He is not a lawyer, so his word choice is not through the lens of professional lawyerly folk such as yourself.
I have no idea if you are actually a lawyer, or a good lawyer, or in fact anything about you. But, from face value, it seems like you are puffing your lawyerly chest here in a situation where common folk interpretation of fairness is more readily appropriate.
Let me state for clarity: while I assert the opinion that BillJones is wrong and TDN is not, my main assertion in responding to the lawyerly stuff in this thread is that it is not really needed. I have no quarrel with lawyers. My two best friends are both lawyers. All I am saying is that lawyer-speak and lawyerly chest puffery is not needed here. Not in this thread. My humble opinion.
One point she makes I strongly agree with is the flow of very rare, high grade U.S. coins going to foreign collectors. What appears to be happening with the coin market is the high end coins don't filter down to shows as they used to and it is adversely effecting their attendance. The high end collector that has all the discretionary income they could ever need will acquire their coins from the larger dealers and never filter down to a smaller show. The dominate dealers know these collectors and do not need to do anything but pick up the phone and the most sought after coins gone into a collection never to be seen for quite some time (years) if ever again.
As a result of this I traded in five of my New Orleans $20 DEs on coins that I seldom if ever had the ability or chance to obtain. All the ones I let go were easily available except two. That is the situation at present and fewer nice branch mint gold coins are showing up in Heritage auctions. Most of those dates that do are problem coins. Two years ago the there were many more O mint pieces but they are drying up. I cannot say much about other U.S. coins as I am not one of the "high end" collectors as I am not in a position to spend $25K+ on the spot when a coin pops up I want. I will just have to be happy with what I have and enjoy seeing those coins posted here that I wish I could own as well. If I can eventually find at the right time a nice $20 1861 O in 53 or 55 that will be may last New Orleans DE purchase.
As far as the foreign buyer I am not at all surprised as quality U.S. assets are increasingly attractive to this sector of collectors. I cannot blame them as they have capital preservation and appreciation over time. Look at what the U.S. Treasury buyers get on a 30 year fixed rate bond ( approx. 2.8% ) and the owner pays tax on that interest owned. Not so great in terms or growth but right now the U.S. is the only game in town and I doubt that will change any time soon. Same goes for the flow of quality coins to foreign collectors.
Nic: FYI - I did it one time partnering a Long Beach table with pattern dealer Rick Kay. At that time, I was a "one man band" and found the experience far too constraining for what I enjoy doing the most at shows, which is lot viewing auctions (and bidding live where I can). I understand the benefits of setting up at a show. And, as I said, if attendance greatly picks up at the shows, I may well consider doing a few shows a year like Winter FUN.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@tradedollarnut said:
Bill Jones has had it out for Legend for years. Ever since he took George's comment "you can't afford that" (dealer slang for "it's on consignment, priced too high, don't waste your time") as a personal insult. He goes out of his way to negativity slant just about anything to do with Legend. Stating that he got the exact same coin from Heritage for 30% less (no mention of the non CAC Ngc holder) was the last straw. I'm over it and I'm gonna handle it.
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn't been to a coin show in over 20 years, is "you can't afford that" commonly interpreted to mean that it is overpriced and not a good buy?
Yes.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@tradedollarnut said:
Bill Jones has had it out for Legend for years. Ever since he took George's comment "you can't afford that" (dealer slang for "it's on consignment, priced too high, don't waste your time") as a personal insult. He goes out of his way to negativity slant just about anything to do with Legend. Stating that he got the exact same coin from Heritage for 30% less (no mention of the non CAC Ngc holder) was the last straw. I'm over it and I'm gonna handle it.
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn't been to a coin show in over 20 years, is "you can't afford that" commonly interpreted to mean that it is overpriced and not a good buy?
Yes.
Let me remind the audience that BillJones is a retired coin dealer. It is expected that he understands dealer-speak.
And let me remind/inform the audience that EVP is an ex employee of Legend and long time friend. And only seems to post on this forum as of late mainly to back Legend.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@stman said:
And let me remind/inform the audience that EVP is an ex employee of Legend and long time friend. And only seems to post on this forum as of late mainly to back Legend.
Yes, true. I worked for them for about two years almost 15 years ago. And, I wrote above that my opinion is biased and that I’m voicing my opinion.
But an ad hominem attack on me seems a bit harsh, no? I mean... You’re suggesting to the audience that I have diminished credibility thus I am more likely to be wrong in my opinions.
Not sure why you’d resort to such tactics. But whatever. To each his own. But I think it’s better to attack the message instead of the messenger. Right?
I don't think you read what I wrote because there was no legalese or "chest puffery" from me. Your accusation is truly baffling to me. I am not the one who threatened litigation or made statements suggesting that possibility. I view TDN's comments as an attempt to intimidate posters and suggest possible retaliation for the expression of an honest opinion that is germane to the topic of this thread. Nothing is more dangerous to the health of an online forum or will kill participation more quickly than if collectors and dealers think that they need to hire attorneys to post comments. If my comments come off as being overly passionate, this is the reason why.
As for the other issues, I never took sides on whether BJ's comments were fair or accurate. Whether your former busienss associate (TDN) realizes it or not, my comments were truly intended to help diffuse the situation and to keep TDN from making a decision that I genuinely believe that both sides would regret. No one wins at $300+/hr to argue personal differences and vendetta.
As for me, I have no stake in this thread. Since my comments may actually be having the opposite effect of what I intended, I will leave this thread as I found it.
@stman said:
And let me remind/inform the audience that EVP is an ex employee of Legend and long time friend. And only seems to post on this forum as of late mainly to back Legend.
Yes, true. I worked for them for about two years almost 15 years ago. And, I wrote above that my opinion is biased and that I’m voicing my opinion.
But an ad hominem attack on me seems a bit harsh, no? I mean... You’re suggesting to the audience that I have diminished credibility thus I am more likely to be wrong in my opinions.
Not sure why you’d resort to such tactics. But whatever. To each his own. But I think it’s better to attack the message instead of the messenger. Right?
EVP
Call it an attack if you choose. That was not my intent. You read way more into it than. It was. I guess some like the drama.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Comments
Bill Jones has had it out for Legend for years. Ever since he took George's comment "you can't afford that" (dealer slang for "it's on consignment, priced too high, don't waste your time") as a personal insult. He goes out of his way to negativity slant just about anything to do with Legend. Stating that he got the exact same coin from Heritage for 30% less (no mention of the non CAC Ngc holder) was the last straw. I'm over it and I'm gonna handle it.
Yup. The one he just did.
Yawn.
Exactly
You're angry. There is clearly bad blood between the two of you as you effectively acknowledge. Might it be possible that both of you allow your personal differences to color your views of each other's posts? Neither of you became successful in business by acting on whims and raw emotion.
Reflect on what was actually said. Your business partner wrote a blog post complaining about declining sales at a coin trade show. Bill comments that if sales are down "perhaps" (exact word) items were not priced competitively. This is nothing more than a restatement of the principles of supply and demand, and when business slows, pricing (i.e. supply and demand) are always potential factors especially in dynamic/fickle/thinly capitalized markets like the U.S. coin market. YOU and BILL both, as CEOs or former CEOs, obviously know that.
Second, Bill posted one anecdotal example of a "widget" (i.e. common coin) and gave anecdotal pricing information. There is nothing actionable about that, and more importantly, the statement doesn't even mean that Heritage always undercuts Legend. No one firm can always be the lowest price. Also, you don't think your customers price shop on widely available coins? Most of your clientele are well off financially, and most wealthy people don't get that way by throwing money blindly. I imagine most are quite frugal with their money which is why they remain wealthy. The point being, none of Bill Jones's comments hurt Legend. Finally, Bill posted the following:
In other words, you can find generics and cross them/sticker them yourself and get "deals" (your word in a subsequent reply). You even agreed with Bill Jones on that point.
So in summary:
I'm at a loss for words as to what the real argument is about here other than personal vendetta.
If I ever need arbitration or mediation services, I am looking up cameonut2011.
Read baseball's posts if you need an alternate unbiased point of view
@amwldcoin I just got back from yoga so I'm typing this calmly. At least in your thread others posted other coins to illustrate your perceived price gouging. In bj's case Just lobbed a hand grenade and said take my word for it the coin I got 30% cheaper was of similar quality. I take that with a serious grain of salt considered the ax he has to grind.
In the thread you started you complained about someone returning a coin because he said he could find it for much cheaper. Maybe as much as 50% cheaper. Others posted auction results illustrating how much more your coin was and you countered with, " my coin is much nicer." Others posted pictures of other coins that they said were as nice or nicer and ALSO 30% or so cheaper. You said, " no way, my coin is nicer". You countered about 30 posts tit for tat. Legend never got that chance. BJ just ate a bologna sandwich farted and left the room in his $5 Liberty example
I think you have a lot of nerve to be honest with you. Namaste
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think you have a lot of nerve to be honest with you. Namaste
"At the start of this Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. I ventured to say that perhaps her pricing might be to blame, and I cited an example which was admittedly anecdotal."
Bill: Here is a totally unbiased response to your comment....
Laura commented that her receipts were down from the shows. She also commented on a few different occasions recently that attendance was down at these shows as well. Attendance and sales go hand in hand - right? Hence, her consideration of possibly even cutting back attending a show or two here or there in the future from what I read. That all flows - right? In fact, if she fails to attend a show due to what she believes is poor collector attendance, one can predict her show sales at that particular show will drop by 100% overnight !
The issue of pricing really does not flow. There is no information I read that Laura raised her prices at any point recently. If one kept their pricing steady for the past 10 years (say 15% markups from cost on average) then it would not make a lot of sense that price would be to blame for slowing receipts (especially if there were record sales at those price points in the past).
If one thinks about it logically, the easy answer is that the poor attendance (among other factors for which dealers have little or no control) is affecting a dealers' sales at these shows. At least, that is the information I concluded from reading the various market reports and why I will personally continue to not "set up" at most shows unless I saw a trend of sharply rising attendance at these events.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Not necessarily. In this market, the prices can fluctuate very quickly and often in a negative direction. When dealing with coins that trade infrequently whether that be in the right plastic/CAC combo or absolute/condition rarity, you may list an item at a reasonable price compared to what the last few examples sold for only to find that the market has deteriorated even from six months to a year ago. The difference is likely to be even greater for coins that last traded years ago. That is not the fault of any dealer, but merely the reality of the perils of the current market. I learned this the hard way when buying a gold coin that I bought and subsequently sold to CAC. I had a tough time selling it for a fair price except to CAC. The example provided in this thread was for a relatively common coin that could be affected by this phenomenon (i.e. tough to find in CAC, but easy to find non-CAC and some of the more prevalent non-CAC pricing might be more illustrative of market trends).
And before anyone comments, I know that the market is beginning to show some signs of stabilization and/or improvements, but we are still not in a seller's market except for a few niches. I also respectfully disagree with the notion that I seem to recall seeing asserted in previous Hot Topics or Market Reports that coins that rarely trade always appreciate. One of the areas that I had an interest in, 1936-1942 cameo proofs which are not common coins, have shown the opposite effect noticeably for copper and nickel coinage. Whether this was a factor in the example given or not, I don't know because I am no actively following anyone's inventory as I am exiting this market completely.
Everything is intended as personal opinion.
Perhaps you should go reread that thread and look at what I see as inaccurate information! Not a single example was close to 50% of the price I sold my coin for! Even taking the lowest auction example do you not think many dealers are buying at auction and marking them up? The returnee did not say he could find it much cheaper! He simply said I over charged him...Turned out he had a medical emergency and needed the money back! I did not block him from buying from me after the dust settled and he offered to pay my shipping to him! SO THERE! There was much disagreement on what was and was not quality!
You're a peach.I reread it. I'll let your thread speak for itself. I bumped it to the top. FYI I have no problem with you charging whatever you want.
I just thought you were being a hypocrite. That's all
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A hypocrite if you don't mind scratches,cleaning etc on a coin!
You are missing the point. You called out TDN for defending himself for alleged over pricing and for challenging BJ. You defended yourself for the very same thing. TDN has been putting up with it for years yet you want him to turn the other cheek yet you couldn't.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Maybe so if I think about it. Did TDN have a Wabbit rat dinging in his dung pile?
That thread would have only been about ebay crap if it hadn't been for the RAT! 
I still agree with everything I said in that post after reading it again! I need to sell a few of the Heritage swooners my rejects!
One more thing and I'll let it go. I was being kind on the math. You "sold" the coin for $850. Others cited the last four coins sold for $410-$520 via auction records. I'm no math major but......your closing in on 100% territory.
It would Be very easy for me to say in a thread I passed on a like coin from you because I found one for 50% cheaper and make you look bad. That's exactly what Bill did to Legend. How would you like if I or someone did it to you? I already know the answer to that. You wouldn't
How do you know that the Legend coin wasn't exponentially better like you stated your coin was?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Completely copied from somewhere else, but this summarizes this thread nicely:
Can't we all just get along?
You really want to wake me up again?
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere and hasn't been to a coin show in over 20 years, is "you can't afford that" commonly interpreted to mean that it is overpriced and not a good buy?
It sounds like a misunderstanding that could have been cleared up long ago to me.
If you will look at the results the only viable comparison was the coin which was compared to mine which was a recent Heritage sale. 3 of the 5 results were from ebay so there is really no way to compare them to my coin,have any idea what they looked like,whether it was 1 coin sold 3 times or 3 different coins,and whether the sale actually took place as we all know about sellers who shill bid their listings! The 5th coin was a 6 year old heritage auction result.
It's funny the direction this discussion has veered. What's at issue here is what I said in my original comment! I'm not defending either of the 2 coins in question and I doubt there could be a way to compare the 2 so that's a mute point.
As to NGC in the last year I have upgraded 10 or 12 nice original Barber Half's recently graded by NGC as F-VF by 10-15 points! Yes that is taking a F to VF and a VF to XF! Quite a few VG10's have gone into PCGS 12 and 15 holders as well!
I thought you might get a laugh out of that! Notice the little devils!
What we need more than an invitational coin "show" is an invitational coin DEALER!
You can not buy from them unless they call and invite you to do so!
Huh?
Good?
Exclusive?
Yay!
Summary of this thread so far:
Legend posted an article on their blog about the value of shows in general and certain shows particularly. Someone posts it here for discussion.
Debate derails in two ways:
(1) someone complains that Legend's pricing is too high by comparing a generic PCGS CAC gold to a generic NGC non-CAC gold and refusing to acknowledge that current day pricing factors in the plastic and the sticker (whether this is fair or not is not being disputed)
(2) some defend the criticism as being unfair, with one dealer in particular (not in Legend's market) specifically criticising the defense of Legend as being too vigorous yet will defend his own pricing approach also very vigorously
How am I doing?
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You missed the entire part where many like me stayed neutral in the initial debate, but thought TDN was being melodramatic and over the top by threatening a retaliatory and baseless lawsuit.
I kinda hate to get into this -
In my opinion, saying something is actionable
is not the same as a 'threatening a retaliatory & baseless lawsuit'.
(can I duck down now?)
To borrow from TDN, it was more than just the one post, but a series of posts with subtext some of which may or may not have been deleted.
Dealers sometimes use that to mean exactly that, especially when speaking to another dealer or a very experienced collector.
Coin Rarities Online
I spoke to a well known dealer on Friday at the ANA in Denver and he said that he rated the show an A-. Some dealers have good shows and some do not.
Cameonut - I guess I'm confused -
I realize that there are other posts,
but my point was that if TD said
something is actionable, that
is not the same as it being a threat
or a retaliatory statement, imo.
I'm not a lawyer, but to me
'actionable' is not the same as a 'threat'.
(maybe that's why I'm NOT a lawyer)
I have no dog in this fight, just thought
I'd make an observation /opinion.....
Before you get up, put your helmet on top of your rifle and slowly raise the helmet up.
As cameonut, and the other lawyers can attest to, there are numerous nuances to a libel claim.
"Saying something" is generally protected if true.
On the other hand if you say something detrimental to a person's business, you could be looking at libel per se. Where proving damages (which sometimes can be hard to prove) is not a requirement.
As to TDN statement of something being actionable, as a lawyer I take that to mean a lawsuit could be forthcoming.
Fair enough, and I'll bite. There was more than just the one statement.
In light of suggesting a statement is actionable, accusing someone of a prolonged pattern of damaging and disparaging comments, and concluding that he is going to "handle it," I'm not sure that I would interpret the statements in any other way than the threat of a lawsuit.
OK, I see what you're saying, taking
in the totality of all of the posts.
I'm not sure I agree 100%, but
that's why I don't practice law.
I'll leave now - lol
Hopefully no harm/no foul
with any party, including you,
from my post(s)
I enjoy talking with other posters, even when it results in healthy debates like this thread did. Diversity of opinion is valuable and makes threads interesting, which is one of the reasons that I find that back and forth between TDN and BJ saddening.
When was the last time you "set up" at a major show? Let's take Winter FUN for an example.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Dealers blame collectors for not showing up. Collectors blame dealers for getting spoiled by the Internet, and leaving early so why bother. Stman translation.....OY VEY next.
I don't understand all of the drama. I spent a fair amount of time looking at coins, getting second opinions, and learning how to grade what I do and want to collect.
I decide what coin at what grade I want to purchase, and what I want to pay for it. If you buy at a show, most dealers want full retail, more if the coin is very nice for the grade, unless they feel they want to unload it.
If you don't want to pay full retail, you pay attention to what's out there, and be patient. I waited four years before finding a Barber Half I liked, eight years finding a Heraldic Eagle Bust Dollar I liked, and twelve years finding a Capped Bust Half I liked.
I don't have a problem waiting. If you want X coin now, you pay what is asked. That's all.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Yes, true, I skipped over that part. Deliberately. But since you brought it up, I will share my opinion on that piece.
I think there is no need for lawyer types to come on here and get all lawyerly on us. There is a fairly simple way to look at the side debate (the main one being Laura's comments about show worthiness), and that is was BillJones being fair in his comment about Legend and was TDN being fair in defending Legend.
IMO, BillJones was not being fair. He ignored the current market reality of plastic and stickers on pricing. Yes, sure, the coin is the main event, but the plastic and stickers still matter in today's market. BillJones willfully ignored that when he asserted that Legend pricing is 30% higher than HA's NGC non-stickered widget equivalent.
Given the history between BillJones and Legend, where in my admittedly biased opinion BillJones is grossly wrong, unfair, and bull-headed, I think it is totally reasonable for TDN to be very upset. He is not a lawyer, so his word choice is not through the lens of professional lawyerly folk such as yourself.
I have no idea if you are actually a lawyer, or a good lawyer, or in fact anything about you. But, from face value, it seems like you are puffing your lawyerly chest here in a situation where common folk interpretation of fairness is more readily appropriate.
Let me state for clarity: while I assert the opinion that BillJones is wrong and TDN is not, my main assertion in responding to the lawyerly stuff in this thread is that it is not really needed. I have no quarrel with lawyers. My two best friends are both lawyers. All I am saying is that lawyer-speak and lawyerly chest puffery is not needed here. Not in this thread. My humble opinion.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
One point she makes I strongly agree with is the flow of very rare, high grade U.S. coins going to foreign collectors. What appears to be happening with the coin market is the high end coins don't filter down to shows as they used to and it is adversely effecting their attendance. The high end collector that has all the discretionary income they could ever need will acquire their coins from the larger dealers and never filter down to a smaller show. The dominate dealers know these collectors and do not need to do anything but pick up the phone and the most sought after coins gone into a collection never to be seen for quite some time (years) if ever again.
As a result of this I traded in five of my New Orleans $20 DEs on coins that I seldom if ever had the ability or chance to obtain. All the ones I let go were easily available except two. That is the situation at present and fewer nice branch mint gold coins are showing up in Heritage auctions. Most of those dates that do are problem coins. Two years ago the there were many more O mint pieces but they are drying up. I cannot say much about other U.S. coins as I am not one of the "high end" collectors as I am not in a position to spend $25K+ on the spot when a coin pops up I want. I will just have to be happy with what I have and enjoy seeing those coins posted here that I wish I could own as well. If I can eventually find at the right time a nice $20 1861 O in 53 or 55 that will be may last New Orleans DE purchase.
As far as the foreign buyer I am not at all surprised as quality U.S. assets are increasingly attractive to this sector of collectors. I cannot blame them as they have capital preservation and appreciation over time. Look at what the U.S. Treasury buyers get on a 30 year fixed rate bond ( approx. 2.8% ) and the owner pays tax on that interest owned. Not so great in terms or growth but right now the U.S. is the only game in town and I doubt that will change any time soon. Same goes for the flow of quality coins to foreign collectors.
Nic: FYI - I did it one time partnering a Long Beach table with pattern dealer Rick Kay. At that time, I was a "one man band" and found the experience far too constraining for what I enjoy doing the most at shows, which is lot viewing auctions (and bidding live where I can). I understand the benefits of setting up at a show. And, as I said, if attendance greatly picks up at the shows, I may well consider doing a few shows a year like Winter FUN.
Wondercoin
Yes.
Let me remind the audience that BillJones is a retired coin dealer. It is expected that he understands dealer-speak.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
And let me remind/inform the audience that EVP is an ex employee of Legend and long time friend. And only seems to post on this forum as of late mainly to back Legend.
Yes, true. I worked for them for about two years almost 15 years ago. And, I wrote above that my opinion is biased and that I’m voicing my opinion.
But an ad hominem attack on me seems a bit harsh, no? I mean... You’re suggesting to the audience that I have diminished credibility thus I am more likely to be wrong in my opinions.
Not sure why you’d resort to such tactics. But whatever. To each his own. But I think it’s better to attack the message instead of the messenger. Right?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
@EVillageProwler
EVP,
I don't think you read what I wrote because there was no legalese or "chest puffery" from me. Your accusation is truly baffling to me. I am not the one who threatened litigation or made statements suggesting that possibility. I view TDN's comments as an attempt to intimidate posters and suggest possible retaliation for the expression of an honest opinion that is germane to the topic of this thread. Nothing is more dangerous to the health of an online forum or will kill participation more quickly than if collectors and dealers think that they need to hire attorneys to post comments. If my comments come off as being overly passionate, this is the reason why.
As for the other issues, I never took sides on whether BJ's comments were fair or accurate. Whether your former busienss associate (TDN) realizes it or not, my comments were truly intended to help diffuse the situation and to keep TDN from making a decision that I genuinely believe that both sides would regret. No one wins at $300+/hr to argue personal differences and vendetta.
As for me, I have no stake in this thread. Since my comments may actually be having the opposite effect of what I intended, I will leave this thread as I found it.
Take care everyone.
Call it an attack if you choose. That was not my intent. You read way more into it than. It was. I guess some like the drama.