I sure am glad I don't deal in moderns! Greysheet destroyed that market for the time being. Someone brought 20 Proof Silver Eagles in the Box to our local show today and the Best offer on the floor from what I understand was $25 each! As long as the public has access and expects these type prices the market will continue to plummet! For years there has always been the occasional huge modern trade that was probably 30 back of greysheet. Should volume deals like this pull down the onsey twosey market?
@JJSingleton said:
I always enjoy Laura's reports. Combination of a wisdom and train wrecks.
In this report I find her to be counter productive with her CDN price guide rag rant. How can she complain about dreck auction prices influencing the levels to the downside when she refuses to participate in providing price level information for her "top 5%" of coins, because she will not be paid.
Reminds me of the old adage: cut off your nose to spite...
I agree with Laura about CDN that it does not know in which way it wants to lead itself in this new age of technology.
They want to be a dealer to dealer wholesale sheet, but they also want to reflect up to the day auctions as well as dealer bids on the network. Are they a wholesale or retail reporting network. Their official stance is to report information to "protect the next buyer". Unfortunately the way they report information by just lowering bids based on a single auction will only continue to lower the listed bids across the board as low end coins go to auction and will continue to send the prices on a downward spiral through the toilet. In fact, I would say that they are self-destructing their own company-and hurting others on the way down as well. I will try and define this more in a later thread.
so cac gold is market value plus premium and non cac I spend at the store? funny when ever I ask for Ike dollars at the bank I hear crickets!! I asked a lady at the bank on Friday if they had any Eisenhower dollars she said is that foreign money I said yes and went to my car.
@afford One thing I don't understand is your admiration of Laura but dislike of well-to-do collectors as you mention here, some of whom may be her clients. I like Laura but also don't have anything against collectors that fit her client profile.
I've know of her helping others she doesn't really like. She was in a position to do so... So she did.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@afford said:
I am aware of her personally helping individuals in a huge way that I have never seen any other dealer do ever.
She is beyond reproach and incredibly sincere and honest...Laura wants the hobby to flourish and be crime free i.e. without coin doctors and their like and strives to help with at and many other important issues. She sacrifices her time and health performing these activities/duties.
@JJSingleton said:
I always enjoy Laura's reports. Combination of a wisdom and train wrecks.
In this report I find her to be counter productive with her CDN price guide rag rant. How can she complain about dreck auction prices influencing the levels to the downside when she refuses to participate in providing price level information for her "top 5%" of coins, because she will not be paid.
Reminds me of the old adage: cut off your nose to spite...
The issue isn't simply that she won't be paid. It's that CDN wants price information for free which they then turn around and sell for a profit: "In fact we are infuriated they have the nerve to ask us to contribute information for free which they then sell." If CDN is making money off the information, one consideration is for them to pay the people that supply the information. For example, Google shares the profits of Google ads with their partners.
@JJSingleton said:
I always enjoy Laura's reports. Combination of a wisdom and train wrecks.
In this report I find her to be counter productive with her CDN price guide rag rant. How can she complain about dreck auction prices influencing the levels to the downside when she refuses to participate in providing price level information for her "top 5%" of coins, because she will not be paid.
Reminds me of the old adage: cut off your nose to spite...
The issue isn't simply that she won't be paid. It's that CDN wants price information for free which they then turn around and sell for a profit: "In fact we are infuriated they have the nerve to ask us to contribute information for free which they then sell." If CDN is making money off the information, one consideration is for them to pay the people that supply the information. For example, Google shares the profits of Google ads with their partners.
CDN does not want anything for free, however, we do not pay any auction houses for their APR's. The gathering of this information is a quid pro quo. We gather the info and we GIVE IT AWAY FREE where ever we can. Laura's snarky comment on her Market Report is in response to a email I sent to their firm asking not only for historic data, but for open auction lots so we could post them for FREE as well. In other words, we were offering her FREE marketing for her auction lots. Interesting that Heritage and Stacks Bowers gladly offer this information for the obvious reason. If you were a consignor to Legend auctions, wouldn't you want the open auction lots to appear on web sites for easy access to bidding???
Also, interesting that on multiple occasions Laura has agreed to supply this data to us, so I was merely inquiring on when it might happen. Somehow CDN became the bogeyman. It's not a problem for us, as CDN now officially rescinds its offer to gather this data for Legend. We don't like being poked in the eye publicly for trying to help...
And as far as being criticized for our pricing, Laura is diametrically opposed to CDN's philosophy of supplying accurate market information on a timely basis to anyone willing to pay our subscription fee. She would prefer that CDN priced coins higher than she has to pay so she has an easier time selling to ill-informed buyers. That's not our role, and I'm sorry she sees it that way. Frankly, I don't think the market would benefit by our intentionally mis-pricing coins.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
» show previous quotes
I agree with Laura about CDN that it does not know in which way it wants to lead itself in this new age of technology.
They want to be a dealer to dealer wholesale sheet, but they also want to reflect up to the day auctions as well as dealer bids on the network. Are they a wholesale or retail reporting network. Their official stance is to report information to "protect the next buyer". Unfortunately the way they report information by just lowering bids based on a single auction will only continue to lower the listed bids across the board as low end coins go to auction and will continue to send the prices on a downward spiral through the toilet. In fact, I would say that they are self-destructing their own company-and hurting others on the way down as well. I will try and define this more in a later thread.
I noticed @joebb21 has since deleted his original comments, but it was memorialized in this above quotation. Again, another snarky comment by a dealer who doesn't want our subscribers to be accurately informed. Mr. Joebb21 would like CDN to take some sort of moving average of the last xx coins BEFORE we lower the price on our sheets. So let's say coin XX sold for: $10,000 in 2015, $9,000 in 2016 and $6,000 in 2017. He would like us to value the coin at $8300 because this is a "more reasonable" valuation. We completely disagree. We would likely value this coin around $6,5000 but to assume the next coin will sell for $8,300 is a HUGE stretch. (Yes, we do look at the coins in question before lowering the values.)
In direct response to his silly comment that "CDN that it does not know in which way it wants to lead itself in this new age of technology" I think the biggest issue folks like Laura and @joebb21 has is that we are extremely confident in our direction. We see that the current market of rare certified coins is largely defined by live auctions at this time, and the live auction market, by its very nature, is the truest reflection of market valuation. Competitive bidding on unreserved lots is the best way to see what coins are worth, is it not?? We also take data from dealers and messages on trading networks, etc but we get far less info from these sources. Anyway, it's nice for readers on this forum to see who doesn't want you to see CDN pricing. I guess they prefer you were uninformed.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
So let's say coin XX sold for: $10,000 in 2015, $9,000 in 2016 and $6,000 in 2017. He would like us to value the coin at $8300 because this is a "more reasonable" valuation. We completely disagree. We would likely value this coin around $6,5000 but to assume the next coin will sell for $8,300 is a HUGE stretch. (Yes, we do look at the coins in question before lowering the values.)
I don't think your hypothetical helps your argument as much as you think it does, and I think it shows how worthless price guides are all together except perhaps for the most common material. What if the $6,000 coin was total crap? Should it bring down the prices for the solid material? I think not. At the same time, some coins are so rare or trade infrequently and are more difficult to price. I recognize that, but your approach seems misguided. A buyer would be better informed by viewing the auction data and comparing the quality of the coins themselves to the exemplar up for sale, and that is free. One sale, in either direction, cannot be the basis for determining the market value unless you consider other factors like population, eye appeal, etc. I don't think the approach of any of the current major price guides does this.
@JohnF said:
In direct response to his silly comment that "CDN that it does not know in which way it wants to lead itself in this new age of technology" I think the biggest issue folks like Laura and @joebb21 has is that we are extremely confident in our direction. We see that the current market of rare certified coins is largely defined by live auctions at this time, and the live auction market, by its very nature, is the truest reflection of market valuation. Competitive bidding on unreserved lots is the best way to see what coins are worth, is it not??
This is interesting because it is similar to what Laura says here:
Legend Numismatics wrote:
our primary information for Legend comes from the same place every ones can-auction results.
So what are the differences if both are using auction results? Does CDN provide as much or more information compared looking at the auction results directly?
@dmwest No popcorn needed on my account. I do everything possible to maintain balance and civility in this hobby. I firmly believe that all honest dealers and collectors are beneficial to one another and should consider ourselves like an extended family. It's sad that folks in our small community choose otherwise and I feel the need to come out on defense. Nobody wins when we are name calling.
@tradedollarnut After spending 2+ years in this pricing chair (and 25 years as a wholesale buyer) I can assure you that even this level of granularity will be flawed. Nice coins sometimes sell to cheaply and ugly coins can sell for too much. We have chosen not to price "+" coins because the natural spread is the base grade and the next grade. Same can be said for a low end coin. What's a crappy MS63 worth? Well, that depends on what an MS62 is worth, etc. Not to mention that one person's crappy coin is another person's PQ coin. Let's face it. PCGS never intentionally puts a crappy coin for the grade in a holder, do they??? This is all very subjective. For this reason, I would never tell anyone that our valuations are the only game in town for this exact reason. I think that it's really great that there are other price guides like CU so buyers can utilize multiple price references.
@cameonut2011 We have started to break out CAC pricing on certain series where the spread between CAC and non-CAC has become demonstrative. We started with gold type, then 20th century gold by date. This week we added gold commems and Peace dollars, and we are halfway through Morgan dollars. It's a LOT of work but there is so much confusion in the marketplace as you can see and it's very difficult to track the 80,000+ prices we work on today...
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@cameonut2011 We have started to break out CAC pricing on certain series where the spread between CAC and non-CAC has become demonstrative. We started with gold type, then 20th century gold by date. This week we added gold commems and Peace dollars, and we are halfway through Morgan dollars. **It's a LOT of work but there is so much confusion in the marketplace as you can see and it's very difficult to track the 80,000+ prices we work on today... **
I cannot imagine having to devise a guide in this market. It would be a nightmare for sure. To make matters worse, sometimes it looks like coins are holdered by two entirely different standards. Look at Liberty Head nickels for instance and pick a date - say 1891 - and compare the last few that examples that sold at auction. To me there seems to be a world of difference between the older slabbed coins (not just old green holder but even the "older" blue holders) and the most recent stuff.
@afford said:
But all I continually read here is how out of touch she is and that is a complete misinterpretation of her and I wish members here would really take the time to get to know her because she is not that way at all.
I've known @Laurie since 1979. All the good things said about her have truth in them. I know of some magnificent things she has done for others.
On the other hand, she has a big mouth, no couth. little to no patience, little respect for the opinions of others. crappy boundaries and her perspective is warped because she works in an disproportionately important but very teeny tiny part of the world of the 99%, She is clear about her base. She preaches to her choir. Her "truth" is only part of larger ones.
Notwithstanding that, her raw information is useful, no matter the spin on curating the details.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@afford said:
But all I continually read here is how out of touch she is and that is a complete misinterpretation of her and I wish members here would really take the time to get to know her because she is not that way at all.
Notwithstanding that, her raw information is useful, no matter the spin on curating the details.
I've known @Laurie since 1979. All the good things said about her have truth in them. I know of some magnificent things she has done for others.
On the other hand, she has a big mouth, no couth. little to no patience, little respect for the opinions of others. crappy boundaries and her perspective is warped because she works in an disproportionately important but very teeny tiny part of the world of the 99%, She is clear about her base. She preaches to her choir. Her "truth" is only part of larger ones.
Notwithstanding that, her raw information is useful, no matter the spin on curating the details.
You can't handle the truth! (Sorry Colonel, couldn't resist. You put it on a tee.)
@ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Not sure how moderns are getting into this debate, but, I post real bids all the time for the 70 grade coins (over on the BST board right now I am bidding for dozens and dozen of them). At times, my bid is MORE than a coin actually sells for at major public auction even including the buyers' premium. Case in point is the popular 2017-W $100 Gold High Relief in PCGS-PR70DCAM grade (FS or FDI - makes no difference). I have a posted buy of $1,830 for the coin. I bought the better part of 100 coins in the past 30 days. I even won at auction yesterday (major sale) a coin for $1,501 hammer plus BP ($1,801). Pretty easy to post a value on a coin like this when real bids exist. This is not an isolated exception.
There are real (strong) bids on many of the important silver, gold and platinum moderns. I am a buyer of business strike modern coins as well. There are healthy two way markets for both moderns and classics. And, fair "spreads" on both as well. I often sell the same moderns I am bidding for at 10%-15% spreads (sometimes even less). Of course, I don't want EVERY modern coin in existence (this is usually where I get offered a boat load of proof state quarters), just as a classic coin buyer of classic gold might not want to chase pop top Walkers, etc..
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I agree with much of what you say. If the greysheet is supposed to be wholesale....then why is it now being used as a retail guide? The impact on moderns will only spread to everything else which is readily available all the way back to the Busties! My opinion is the market of this type material is supported by the dealers. What greysheet is doing IMHO is forcing dealers to rethink their strategy and stop inventorying what used to be the mainstay of the hobby(especially Shops that used to have most available). I see this almost like a virus. When dealers stop buying...which is happening, collectors can't get close to what used to be a reasonable wholesale price,.......the collectors will exit the market and the market will implode just like with stamps!
What really amazes me is the stuff that is not readily available but does trade regularly. The prices reflected by greysheet are way behind the times! Instead of focusing on average everyday available stuff...why not update the pricing on the stuff that is not readily available but does trade?
As most here know I deal in nice original F-AU Barber Half's. I won't supply my buy and sell prices to greysheet because I think DLRC and certainly John Feigenbaum knows the market on these and certainly doesn't need my results! All I can say about this is greysheet bid on anything but common and 04-S Half's in the F-AU range are a joke. I honestly believe if greysheet was more inline with the market on these there would be more people collecting them. I see so many people wanting to collect Barber Half's but none of the guides are in the realm of reality on all but the common dates! Every major show I have numerous folks who like Barber Half's and want to collect them in the midgrades but won't buy because they will not look at auction results and only look at printed guides. Add to this the fact that the TPG's are starting to grade stuff problem-free they would not in the past only compounds this problem. Some of the differences in pricing of this newly graded crap vrs. nice original coins is almost 2 fold!
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@amwldcoin said: @ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
@afford said:
But all I continually read here is how out of touch she is and that is a complete misinterpretation of her and I wish members here would really take the time to get to know her because she is not that way at all.
I've known @Laurie since 1979. All the good things said about her have truth in them. I know of some magnificent things she has done for others.
On the other hand, she has a big mouth, no couth. little to no patience, little respect for the opinions of others. crappy boundaries and her perspective is warped because she works in an disproportionately important but very teeny tiny part of the world of the 99%, She is clear about her base. She preaches to her choir. Her "truth" is only part of larger ones.
Notwithstanding that, her raw information is useful, no matter the spin on curating the details.
watch it Colonel before you really p--s off Laura with those teeny tiny rants, she's liable to call you a weenie wannabee
I always liked the "Grey Sheet" and I used to save them for years, blue sheets too. I tell you this, I think the subscription price is too high. I find myself weighing so many different factors TPGs pricing, the coin, the market, the coin, overall buy prices for the coin, it's tough, but if I could afford the subscription price I'd feel more comfortable.
ALL "sheets" are indispensable when looking at coins in a "run" and....wondering.... why that one the 3rd from the left and 4 rows down is more than all the others of the same type.
A....COMPARISON....if you will. Not pertinent as to price, but useful as to difference between similar coins.
Comments
I sure am glad I don't deal in moderns! Greysheet destroyed that market for the time being. Someone brought 20 Proof Silver Eagles in the Box to our local show today and the Best offer on the floor from what I understand was $25 each! As long as the public has access and expects these type prices the market will continue to plummet! For years there has always been the occasional huge modern trade that was probably 30 back of greysheet. Should volume deals like this pull down the onsey twosey market?
agreed, moons ago until she got booted for...well for being Laura.
so cac gold is market value plus premium and non cac I spend at the store? funny when ever I ask for Ike dollars at the bank I hear crickets!! I asked a lady at the bank on Friday if they had any Eisenhower dollars she said is that foreign money I said yes and went to my car.
@afford One thing I don't understand is your admiration of Laura but dislike of well-to-do collectors as you mention here, some of whom may be her clients. I like Laura but also don't have anything against collectors that fit her client profile.
@afford
I agree with you.
I've know of her helping others she doesn't really like. She was in a position to do so... So she did.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No one said she was a bad person.
The issue isn't simply that she won't be paid. It's that CDN wants price information for free which they then turn around and sell for a profit: "In fact we are infuriated they have the nerve to ask us to contribute information for free which they then sell." If CDN is making money off the information, one consideration is for them to pay the people that supply the information. For example, Google shares the profits of Google ads with their partners.
CDN does not want anything for free, however, we do not pay any auction houses for their APR's. The gathering of this information is a quid pro quo. We gather the info and we GIVE IT AWAY FREE where ever we can. Laura's snarky comment on her Market Report is in response to a email I sent to their firm asking not only for historic data, but for open auction lots so we could post them for FREE as well. In other words, we were offering her FREE marketing for her auction lots. Interesting that Heritage and Stacks Bowers gladly offer this information for the obvious reason. If you were a consignor to Legend auctions, wouldn't you want the open auction lots to appear on web sites for easy access to bidding???
Also, interesting that on multiple occasions Laura has agreed to supply this data to us, so I was merely inquiring on when it might happen. Somehow CDN became the bogeyman. It's not a problem for us, as CDN now officially rescinds its offer to gather this data for Legend. We don't like being poked in the eye publicly for trying to help...
And as far as being criticized for our pricing, Laura is diametrically opposed to CDN's philosophy of supplying accurate market information on a timely basis to anyone willing to pay our subscription fee. She would prefer that CDN priced coins higher than she has to pay so she has an easier time selling to ill-informed buyers. That's not our role, and I'm sorry she sees it that way. Frankly, I don't think the market would benefit by our intentionally mis-pricing coins.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@joebb21 said:
» show previous quotes
I agree with Laura about CDN that it does not know in which way it wants to lead itself in this new age of technology.
They want to be a dealer to dealer wholesale sheet, but they also want to reflect up to the day auctions as well as dealer bids on the network. Are they a wholesale or retail reporting network. Their official stance is to report information to "protect the next buyer". Unfortunately the way they report information by just lowering bids based on a single auction will only continue to lower the listed bids across the board as low end coins go to auction and will continue to send the prices on a downward spiral through the toilet. In fact, I would say that they are self-destructing their own company-and hurting others on the way down as well. I will try and define this more in a later thread.
I noticed @joebb21 has since deleted his original comments, but it was memorialized in this above quotation. Again, another snarky comment by a dealer who doesn't want our subscribers to be accurately informed. Mr. Joebb21 would like CDN to take some sort of moving average of the last xx coins BEFORE we lower the price on our sheets. So let's say coin XX sold for: $10,000 in 2015, $9,000 in 2016 and $6,000 in 2017. He would like us to value the coin at $8300 because this is a "more reasonable" valuation. We completely disagree. We would likely value this coin around $6,5000 but to assume the next coin will sell for $8,300 is a HUGE stretch. (Yes, we do look at the coins in question before lowering the values.)
In direct response to his silly comment that "CDN that it does not know in which way it wants to lead itself in this new age of technology" I think the biggest issue folks like Laura and @joebb21 has is that we are extremely confident in our direction. We see that the current market of rare certified coins is largely defined by live auctions at this time, and the live auction market, by its very nature, is the truest reflection of market valuation. Competitive bidding on unreserved lots is the best way to see what coins are worth, is it not?? We also take data from dealers and messages on trading networks, etc but we get far less info from these sources. Anyway, it's nice for readers on this forum to see who doesn't want you to see CDN pricing. I guess they prefer you were uninformed.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I don't think your hypothetical helps your argument as much as you think it does, and I think it shows how worthless price guides are all together except perhaps for the most common material. What if the $6,000 coin was total crap? Should it bring down the prices for the solid material? I think not. At the same time, some coins are so rare or trade infrequently and are more difficult to price. I recognize that, but your approach seems misguided. A buyer would be better informed by viewing the auction data and comparing the quality of the coins themselves to the exemplar up for sale, and that is free. One sale, in either direction, cannot be the basis for determining the market value unless you consider other factors like population, eye appeal, etc. I don't think the approach of any of the current major price guides does this.
For the record, I'm not a dealer.
This is interesting because it is similar to what Laura says here:
So what are the differences if both are using auction results? Does CDN provide as much or more information compared looking at the auction results directly?
This post just got interesting.....I'm gonna need popcorn.
Don't quote me on that.
Author needs to learn the difference between then and than.
Also, they sound like a snob.
Someday somebody is gonna provide really useful pricing information by rating the quality of the price realized
(This C coin sold for x and this A coin sold for y, etc)
Agree. I was going to write out everything I want for pricing info but then thought maybe I should do it or work with a team to do it
I don't bother with the CDN much anymore, but isn't there a column for CAC bids? Is that only the Blue Sheet?
@dmwest No popcorn needed on my account. I do everything possible to maintain balance and civility in this hobby. I firmly believe that all honest dealers and collectors are beneficial to one another and should consider ourselves like an extended family. It's sad that folks in our small community choose otherwise and I feel the need to come out on defense. Nobody wins when we are name calling.
@tradedollarnut After spending 2+ years in this pricing chair (and 25 years as a wholesale buyer) I can assure you that even this level of granularity will be flawed. Nice coins sometimes sell to cheaply and ugly coins can sell for too much. We have chosen not to price "+" coins because the natural spread is the base grade and the next grade. Same can be said for a low end coin. What's a crappy MS63 worth? Well, that depends on what an MS62 is worth, etc. Not to mention that one person's crappy coin is another person's PQ coin. Let's face it. PCGS never intentionally puts a crappy coin for the grade in a holder, do they??? This is all very subjective. For this reason, I would never tell anyone that our valuations are the only game in town for this exact reason. I think that it's really great that there are other price guides like CU so buyers can utilize multiple price references.
@cameonut2011 We have started to break out CAC pricing on certain series where the spread between CAC and non-CAC has become demonstrative. We started with gold type, then 20th century gold by date. This week we added gold commems and Peace dollars, and we are halfway through Morgan dollars. It's a LOT of work but there is so much confusion in the marketplace as you can see and it's very difficult to track the 80,000+ prices we work on today...
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I cannot imagine having to devise a guide in this market. It would be a nightmare for sure. To make matters worse, sometimes it looks like coins are holdered by two entirely different standards. Look at Liberty Head nickels for instance and pick a date - say 1891 - and compare the last few that examples that sold at auction. To me there seems to be a world of difference between the older slabbed coins (not just old green holder but even the "older" blue holders) and the most recent stuff.
I've known @Laurie since 1979. All the good things said about her have truth in them. I know of some magnificent things she has done for others.
On the other hand, she has a big mouth, no couth. little to no patience, little respect for the opinions of others. crappy boundaries and her perspective is warped because she works in an disproportionately important but very teeny tiny part of the world of the 99%, She is clear about her base. She preaches to her choir. Her "truth" is only part of larger ones.
Notwithstanding that, her raw information is useful, no matter the spin on curating the details.
Tru dat.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
You can't handle the truth! (Sorry Colonel, couldn't resist. You put it on a tee.)
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
In the "taking the high road contest", @JohnF is the clear winner. He has won my respect.
I don't know. He wouldn't let me have my popcorn.
d2
Don't quote me on that.
@ColonelJessup I see you disagreed with my comment. You certainly don't strike me as one who deals with moderns as well as me. I have several acquaintances that do and that is their take...which I tend to agree with. Care to explain why you disagree????
I don't deal in moderns. I have a skeptical view of their value. I won't argue the onesies/twosies, but everything below pop-top seems "overly available". If prices are superficially crashing and you value items for more, bid for them.
Want to sell? Quote a relevant public auction result for a single coin. The complaint might easily be that too many people were burnt by artificially high prices.
But I will concede partial ignorance of some critical specifics. What specific issues have crashed where higher values are publically available?
I disagree with the generalizations. I also disagree with @joebb1's point as quoted. I believe that particular post was retracted subsequently.
Not sure how moderns are getting into this debate, but, I post real bids all the time for the 70 grade coins (over on the BST board right now I am bidding for dozens and dozen of them). At times, my bid is MORE than a coin actually sells for at major public auction even including the buyers' premium. Case in point is the popular 2017-W $100 Gold High Relief in PCGS-PR70DCAM grade (FS or FDI - makes no difference). I have a posted buy of $1,830 for the coin. I bought the better part of 100 coins in the past 30 days. I even won at auction yesterday (major sale) a coin for $1,501 hammer plus BP ($1,801). Pretty easy to post a value on a coin like this when real bids exist. This is not an isolated exception.
There are real (strong) bids on many of the important silver, gold and platinum moderns. I am a buyer of business strike modern coins as well. There are healthy two way markets for both moderns and classics. And, fair "spreads" on both as well. I often sell the same moderns I am bidding for at 10%-15% spreads (sometimes even less). Of course, I don't want EVERY modern coin in existence (this is usually where I get offered a boat load of proof state quarters), just as a classic coin buyer of classic gold might not want to chase pop top Walkers, etc..
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
I agree with much of what you say. If the greysheet is supposed to be wholesale....then why is it now being used as a retail guide? The impact on moderns will only spread to everything else which is readily available all the way back to the Busties! My opinion is the market of this type material is supported by the dealers. What greysheet is doing IMHO is forcing dealers to rethink their strategy and stop inventorying what used to be the mainstay of the hobby(especially Shops that used to have most available). I see this almost like a virus. When dealers stop buying...which is happening, collectors can't get close to what used to be a reasonable wholesale price,.......the collectors will exit the market and the market will implode just like with stamps!
What really amazes me is the stuff that is not readily available but does trade regularly. The prices reflected by greysheet are way behind the times! Instead of focusing on average everyday available stuff...why not update the pricing on the stuff that is not readily available but does trade?
As most here know I deal in nice original F-AU Barber Half's. I won't supply my buy and sell prices to greysheet because I think DLRC and certainly John Feigenbaum knows the market on these and certainly doesn't need my results! All I can say about this is greysheet bid on anything but common and 04-S Half's in the F-AU range are a joke. I honestly believe if greysheet was more inline with the market on these there would be more people collecting them. I see so many people wanting to collect Barber Half's but none of the guides are in the realm of reality on all but the common dates! Every major show I have numerous folks who like Barber Half's and want to collect them in the midgrades but won't buy because they will not look at auction results and only look at printed guides. Add to this the fact that the TPG's are starting to grade stuff problem-free they would not in the past only compounds this problem. Some of the differences in pricing of this newly graded crap vrs. nice original coins is almost 2 fold!
watch it Colonel before you really p--s off Laura with those teeny tiny rants, she's liable to call you a weenie wannabee
I missed the lite-side.
Who's Laura?
I always liked the "Grey Sheet" and I used to save them for years, blue sheets too. I tell you this, I think the subscription price is too high. I find myself weighing so many different factors TPGs pricing, the coin, the market, the coin, overall buy prices for the coin, it's tough, but if I could afford the subscription price I'd feel more comfortable.
ALL "sheets" are indispensable when looking at coins in a "run" and....wondering.... why that one the 3rd from the left and 4 rows down is more than all the others of the same type.
A....COMPARISON....if you will. Not pertinent as to price, but useful as to difference between similar coins.
No? ????
I do.