I like to see a little more detail in the wings before I go to VF. Guess this is the usual case of putting a price on a coin rather than putting its actual grade as would be seen by a novice looking in the guide books.
The best coins are not in my collection or inventory.... but this never stopped me from dreaming, or working to acquire them. Of course higher prices are like a two-edged sword. So CAC , like submission fees, are now part of the overall cost; and also the cause for those who seem disgruntled with the inflated prices they bring. There's a good side we cannot see, on one hand.
On 5 figure and up coins CAC carries a lot of weight in the marketplace.
On sub-$1000 I don't see CAC as really that important.
I have been asked whether $50 and $150 coins have been to CAC - I kid you not. I'm talking about common date coins in PCGS OGH and rattlers.
I think a lot of those were done when CAC was setting up at shows "COINFEST" and doing x number of freebies. I would hope nobody would submit a 1883-O Morgan in ms63; but to each their own.
@skier07 said:
Eventually most of us for whatever reasons will sell off our collection. When I reach that point, assuming current market conditions, I'd prefer CAC approved coins.
Are you willing to pay the premium dealers want on CAC coins? Liquidity should be considered buy I'll take a straight PCGS graded set and buy coins I am familiar with and like sticker or not but paying another 15% for some one to confirm PCGS's grade mmmmmmmmm no. I would be shelling out several thousand dollars if the 15% bump in price is being asked. Its the up front premium I won't pay if another nice example if a coin is available without a sticker.
I buy a coin I like sticker or not if the price is fair. I have one CAC coin but the only DE $20 that was a CAC coin was traded in on a much rarer coin along with some boot. I have no regrets about letting the CAC and was glad to get a much nicer coin and shuck some of the more common dates as far as New Orleans coins go.
With respect to to CAC only issue some of the pre Civil War DEs in AU very seldom CAC. I did see two NGC graded $20 AU 55 1855 Os sell in the same lot. The non CAC coin went for $9,000 more as is was a better coin and the other was pretty hard on the eye.
Would I refuse a CAC sticker if the coin were expensive enough to justify one. NO. i won't pay a dealer much if any premium for a CAC type one DE. If I am lucky enough to find some other New Orleans $20 I'll be lucky and if any are CAC if so it will be it will be very few.
It may be time for them promote it with T Shirt or Polo Shirt: Green w slabbed coins with caption: Got CAC? I think they would sell, I would take the Polo.
@Cougar1978 said:
It may be time for them promote it with T Shirt or Polo Shirt: Green w slabbed coins with caption: Got CAC? I think they would sell, I would take the Polo.
@Dave99B said:
Not really a fan at all; I pretty much ignore it. I prefer to use my own judgement to determine if a coin is 'nice for the grade'. But if others like it, and find CAC useful, so be it.
Dave
For the more expensive coins I look for nice coins even if they have no sticker and ask if they have been submitted to CAC. If not, then I will make a deal contingent on the coin passing CAC. The dealers who feel they have nothing to lose will make that deal more and more often. I then personally visit CAC and over 80% of the time and been successful.
On the less expensive coins (usually the ones under $300, I will purchase them if I like them enough and then submit them to CAC to "test" my grading get eye. I am getting better and better at screening the coins but I need CAC to verify my own opinion.
BOTTOM LINE...USING MY OWN JUDGEMENT WITHOUT SEEKING VERIFICATION FROM CAC IS DANGEROUS!!
As a bonus, I sometimes sit with JA to learn and tighten my grading eye. Invaluable.
@skier07 said:
Eventually most of us for whatever reasons will sell off our collection. When I reach that point, assuming current market conditions, I'd prefer CAC approved coins.
Are you willing to pay the premium dealers want on CAC coins? Liquidity should be considered buy I'll take a straight PCGS graded set and buy coins I am familiar with and like sticker or not but paying another 15% for some one to confirm PCGS's grade mmmmmmmmm no. I would be shelling out several thousand dollars if the 15% bump in price is being asked. Its the up front premium I won't pay if another nice example if a coin is available without a sticker.
Looking at auction results in GC and Heritage, CAC coins seem to yield higher prices. Even if you pay a 15% buyers CAC premium, when you sell you should get the 15% back and maybe more. With people buying coins they haven't actually viewed in hand CAC adds another layer of comfort and protection to buyers.
And yes, buy the coin , and not the holder. I've seen my share of CAC coins and wondered what JA was drinking that day.
For the more expensive coins I look for nice coins even if they have no sticker and ask if they have been submitted to CAC. If not, then I will make a deal contingent on the coin passing CAC. The dealers who feel they have nothing to lose will make that deal more and more often. I then personally visit CAC and over 80% of the time and been successful.
On the less expensive coins (usually the ones under $300, I will purchase them if I like them enough and then submit them to CAC to "test" my grading get eye. I am getting better and better at screening the coins but I need CAC to verify my own opinion.
BOTTOM LINE...USING MY OWN JUDGEMENT WITHOUT SEEKING VERIFICATION FROM CAC IS DANGEROUS!!
I'd argue that not being able to use your own judgement is WAY more dangerous. I honestly assume nothing when I examine a PCGS or CAC coin. Lots of over-graded/problem coins are floating around that you won't want in your collection. I'm stuck with a few myself. That said, if you're not confident, go with PCGS/CAC. As I said before, if CAC helps you, go for it. No argument there.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
I'd argue that not being able to use your own judgement is WAY more dangerous. I honestly assume nothing when I examine a PCGS or CAC coin. Lots of over-graded/problem coins are floating around that you won't want in your collection. I'm stuck with a few myself. That said, if you're not confident, go with PCGS/CAC. As I said before, if CAC helps you, go for it. No argument there.
Dave
Dave:
I TRUST my judgement but it never hurts to VERIFY it. Accepting my own judgement as not needing verification reeks of overconfidence which eventually will cause me harm.
@thebigeng said:
Well, my only comment to this subject which has been done to death is this: When will CAC start with Darkside coins? !!
!!!!! Hopefully never. I am going more in this direction and I don't need someone to come along and screw this market up too.
I guess Wings must not be making a big splash.
Well if you figure that the vast majority of world coins are not yet even graded and that the stickering services are a derivative of the graded market, it does stand to reason that it would be a slower adoption given that grading in most of the world market outside the US is not yet even adopted.
That said, the grading services are much more variable in grading world coins which makes for more opportunity both for a service supporting grading consistency and for the collector/dealer with suitable knowledge to capitalize on the opportunity.
To me, there is loads more value and opportunity in the higher end world market than in most pools of the US market.
To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The loudest voices in most debates are the people on the extremes of the argument.
I see people here who are flat out arrogant in stating that their opinion is all that matters and condemn CAC. People on the other side champion the company and will lazily buy anything so long as it has a sticker. Frankly, neither strategy is a good one. I would argue that one the average the second strategy will yield better results but who knows.
The truth is in the middle and CAC provides a valuable service for an exceptionally reasonable price from experts in various fields while creating a market for the coins they sticker. Are they perfect, no. Are they pretty darn good, yep. Should we endeavour to better our grading and detection of quality and doctoring, absolutely. Could most of us, no matter how seasoned, learn from unquestionably the top people in the hobby who conveniently put bids in for coins they like, I think so.
To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab.
Well said. My thoughts exactly....
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
@ms70 said: "To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab."
Roll eyes. Nevertheless, they ARE your slabs. Enjoy! Oh, when you go to sell them you have automatically excluded those folks who swear by CAC stickered coins.
BTW, I've seen movies of people lighting hundred dollar bills - same thing, LOL. Perhaps you could cover a slab with red fingernail polish and just leave the coin showing. That would be even funnier than burning money to me.
Dave99B: Not really a fan at all; I pretty much ignore it. I prefer to use my own judgement to determine if a coin is 'nice for the grade'. But if others like it, and find CAC useful, so be it.
MS70: To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab.
This is like saying that a dedicated fan, who is very knowledgeable about football, can throw a ball just as well as Peyton Manning or Drew Brees. The work of top professionals is more difficult and require more skill than most fans and hobbyists realize.
In some cases, coins have to be tilted at various angles for significant hairlines or issues to become visible. Moreover, in almost all auctions, there are certified coins that have imperfections that were deliberately covered or obscured with added materials. Analyzing coins requires much skill. It was not helpful for someone to suggest that most buyers can grade coins well enough and have no need of CAC or anyone else. Using such logic, there would be no need for grading services or expert opinions of any sort.
No one is saying that JA is infallible, but the founding of CAC is one of the best events in the history of coin collecting. JA is the Ted Williams of coin grading.
As I said here before, "Once in a while, though rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored." So there, I find some coins with stickers to have been doctored, silver in far more instances than gold. A point is that JA has the highest batting average. It is indisputable that CAC stickers, on average, add value to coins.
The fact that Ted Williams often had the highest batting average, during his career, does not mean that no one else should then have played baseball. Besides, the Red Sox never won the World Series when Ted Williams was the team's star.
Ted Williams did not commit errors during the few times that he struck out. Such 'outs' are part of the nature of the game; no one can bat 1.000!
It makes sense for collectors to seek multiple opinions about individual coins and to ask questions. Even so, it is not cost-effective to hire consultants or exhaustively research every coin being sought that costs less than $2500. For many collectors, buying CAC stickered coins is central to a sound strategy. JA has identified many doctored coins that other experts missed.
Comments
My first 01-S quarter, VF20.
Doug
I like to see a little more detail in the wings before I go to VF. Guess this is the usual case of putting a price on a coin rather than putting its actual grade as would be seen by a novice looking in the guide books.
I have been asked whether $50 and $150 coins have been to CAC - I kid you not. I'm talking about common date coins in PCGS OGH and rattlers.
The best coins are not in my collection or inventory.... but this never stopped me from dreaming, or working to acquire them. Of course higher prices are like a two-edged sword. So CAC , like submission fees, are now part of the overall cost; and also the cause for those who seem disgruntled with the inflated prices they bring. There's a good side we cannot see, on one hand.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Whatever you think about CAC is fine. What the market thinks about it is another thing.
I'm beginning to have my doubts.
I dislike the occasional 81-S in MS68, and sometimes find the B coins "too original" and boring.
How they stay in business is beyond me
I think a lot of those were done when CAC was setting up at shows "COINFEST" and doing x number of freebies. I would hope nobody would submit a 1883-O Morgan in ms63; but to each their own.
Are you willing to pay the premium dealers want on CAC coins? Liquidity should be considered buy I'll take a straight PCGS graded set and buy coins I am familiar with and like sticker or not but paying another 15% for some one to confirm PCGS's grade mmmmmmmmm no. I would be shelling out several thousand dollars if the 15% bump in price is being asked. Its the up front premium I won't pay if another nice example if a coin is available without a sticker.
I buy a coin I like sticker or not if the price is fair. I have one CAC coin but the only DE $20 that was a CAC coin was traded in on a much rarer coin along with some boot. I have no regrets about letting the CAC and was glad to get a much nicer coin and shuck some of the more common dates as far as New Orleans coins go.
With respect to to CAC only issue some of the pre Civil War DEs in AU very seldom CAC. I did see two NGC graded $20 AU 55 1855 Os sell in the same lot. The non CAC coin went for $9,000 more as is was a better coin and the other was pretty hard on the eye.
Would I refuse a CAC sticker if the coin were expensive enough to justify one. NO. i won't pay a dealer much if any premium for a CAC type one DE. If I am lucky enough to find some other New Orleans $20 I'll be lucky and if any are CAC if so it will be it will be very few.
It may be time for them promote it with T Shirt or Polo Shirt: Green w slabbed coins with caption: Got CAC? I think they would sell, I would take the Polo.
I'll take the barrel with the shoulder straps.
For the more expensive coins I look for nice coins even if they have no sticker and ask if they have been submitted to CAC. If not, then I will make a deal contingent on the coin passing CAC. The dealers who feel they have nothing to lose will make that deal more and more often. I then personally visit CAC and over 80% of the time and been successful.
On the less expensive coins (usually the ones under $300, I will purchase them if I like them enough and then submit them to CAC to "test" my grading get eye. I am getting better and better at screening the coins but I need CAC to verify my own opinion.
BOTTOM LINE...USING MY OWN JUDGEMENT WITHOUT SEEKING VERIFICATION FROM CAC IS DANGEROUS!!
As a bonus, I sometimes sit with JA to learn and tighten my grading eye. Invaluable.
Well, my only comment to this subject which has been done to death is this: When will CAC start with Darkside coins? !!
Looking at auction results in GC and Heritage, CAC coins seem to yield higher prices. Even if you pay a 15% buyers CAC premium, when you sell you should get the 15% back and maybe more. With people buying coins they haven't actually viewed in hand CAC adds another layer of comfort and protection to buyers.
And yes, buy the coin , and not the holder. I've seen my share of CAC coins and wondered what JA was drinking that day.
...or God snuffs a kitten.
Latin American Collection
Lot's of folks here must hate cats!
!!!!! Hopefully never. I am going more in this direction and I don't need someone to come along and screw this market up too.
@oreville said:
For the more expensive coins I look for nice coins even if they have no sticker and ask if they have been submitted to CAC. If not, then I will make a deal contingent on the coin passing CAC. The dealers who feel they have nothing to lose will make that deal more and more often. I then personally visit CAC and over 80% of the time and been successful.
On the less expensive coins (usually the ones under $300, I will purchase them if I like them enough and then submit them to CAC to "test" my grading get eye. I am getting better and better at screening the coins but I need CAC to verify my own opinion.
BOTTOM LINE...USING MY OWN JUDGEMENT WITHOUT SEEKING VERIFICATION FROM CAC IS DANGEROUS!!
I'd argue that not being able to use your own judgement is WAY more dangerous. I honestly assume nothing when I examine a PCGS or CAC coin. Lots of over-graded/problem coins are floating around that you won't want in your collection. I'm stuck with a few myself. That said, if you're not confident, go with PCGS/CAC. As I said before, if CAC helps you, go for it. No argument there.
Dave
Dave:
I TRUST my judgement but it never hurts to VERIFY it. Accepting my own judgement as not needing verification reeks of overconfidence which eventually will cause me harm.
I guess Wings must not be making a big splash.
Well if you figure that the vast majority of world coins are not yet even graded and that the stickering services are a derivative of the graded market, it does stand to reason that it would be a slower adoption given that grading in most of the world market outside the US is not yet even adopted.
That said, the grading services are much more variable in grading world coins which makes for more opportunity both for a service supporting grading consistency and for the collector/dealer with suitable knowledge to capitalize on the opportunity.
To me, there is loads more value and opportunity in the higher end world market than in most pools of the US market.
Latin American Collection
To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The three collectors who don't need 20 opinions are salivating for those coins.
The loudest voices in most debates are the people on the extremes of the argument.
I see people here who are flat out arrogant in stating that their opinion is all that matters and condemn CAC. People on the other side champion the company and will lazily buy anything so long as it has a sticker. Frankly, neither strategy is a good one. I would argue that one the average the second strategy will yield better results but who knows.
The truth is in the middle and CAC provides a valuable service for an exceptionally reasonable price from experts in various fields while creating a market for the coins they sticker. Are they perfect, no. Are they pretty darn good, yep. Should we endeavour to better our grading and detection of quality and doctoring, absolutely. Could most of us, no matter how seasoned, learn from unquestionably the top people in the hobby who conveniently put bids in for coins they like, I think so.
Latin American Collection
To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab.
Well said. My thoughts exactly....
Dave
I will bid on CAC coins if like coin, it's PQ, and cost within acceptable business parameters.
@ms70 said: "To me it is of zero importance. I have a number of coins that were CAC'ed and I removed the stickers. The sticker meant nothing to me when I bought them. Additionally the lack of stickers will be of no consequence when I sell to informed & experienced collectors who don't need 20 opinions or a sticker that equates to a participation trophy on their slab."
Roll eyes. Nevertheless, they ARE your slabs. Enjoy! Oh, when you go to sell them you have automatically excluded those folks who swear by CAC stickered coins.
BTW, I've seen movies of people lighting hundred dollar bills - same thing, LOL. Perhaps you could cover a slab with red fingernail polish and just leave the coin showing. That would be even funnier than burning money to me.
Dave99B:
MS70:
This is like saying that a dedicated fan, who is very knowledgeable about football, can throw a ball just as well as Peyton Manning or Drew Brees. The work of top professionals is more difficult and require more skill than most fans and hobbyists realize.
In some cases, coins have to be tilted at various angles for significant hairlines or issues to become visible. Moreover, in almost all auctions, there are certified coins that have imperfections that were deliberately covered or obscured with added materials. Analyzing coins requires much skill. It was not helpful for someone to suggest that most buyers can grade coins well enough and have no need of CAC or anyone else. Using such logic, there would be no need for grading services or expert opinions of any sort.
No one is saying that JA is infallible, but the founding of CAC is one of the best events in the history of coin collecting. JA is the Ted Williams of coin grading.
As I said here before, "Once in a while, though rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored." So there, I find some coins with stickers to have been doctored, silver in far more instances than gold. A point is that JA has the highest batting average. It is indisputable that CAC stickers, on average, add value to coins.
The fact that Ted Williams often had the highest batting average, during his career, does not mean that no one else should then have played baseball. Besides, the Red Sox never won the World Series when Ted Williams was the team's star.
Ted Williams did not commit errors during the few times that he struck out. Such 'outs' are part of the nature of the game; no one can bat 1.000!
It makes sense for collectors to seek multiple opinions about individual coins and to ask questions. Even so, it is not cost-effective to hire consultants or exhaustively research every coin being sought that costs less than $2500. For many collectors, buying CAC stickered coins is central to a sound strategy. JA has identified many doctored coins that other experts missed.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
Insightful10@gmail.com
Greg -- good article...thanks!!!