I just viewed Bob Campbell's ANA Video on toning and have a request.

Insider2 · August 8, 2017 8:45PM

I just watched the video and wonder if members can add to it. What are some of the characteristics you use to determine if a coin has natural toning? Additionally, what do you look for on coins that indicate possible AT?

To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for AT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

(+) Pull-away toning at the base of the relief toward the edges of the coin.
(-) Brown colored toning in the field that "flows" around parts of the relief.

Hopefully, we can keep this format so I can copy the answers. No need to post one + or one - as I did above. I'd like to read as many plus and minus characteristics as you all know. Images with each characteristic you write about would be very helpfull. I'll add mine to this thread tomorrow when I can get to my camera.

If this goes as planned, you and I should all learn a great deal about toning from the experts here on CU.

BStrauss3 · August 9, 2017 9:12AM

You have two bullets not a plus and minus

bronco2078 · August 9, 2017 9:40AM

@BStrauss3 said:
You have two bullets not a plus and minus

Let me tell you two things about your post.

A: you are correct

and

2: I have nothing to add

messydesk · August 9, 2017 9:45AM

@Insider2 said:
I just watched the video and wonder if members can add to it. What are some of the characteristics you use to determine if a coin has natural toning? Additionally, what do you look for on coins that indicate possible AT?

To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for NT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

+ Pull-away toning at the base of the relief toward the edges of the coin.
- Brown colored toning in the field that "flows" around parts of the relief.

Hopefully, we can keep this format so I can copy the answers. No need to post one + or one - as I did above. I'd like to read as many plus and minus characteristics as you all know. Images with each characteristic you write about would be very helpfull. I'll add mine to this thread tomorrow when I can get to my camera.

If this goes as planned, you and I should all learn a great deal about toning from the experts here on CU.

The forum software assumes that a leading + or - is really meant to be a bullet. If you precede them with a \ character, then this behavior is suppressed. I edited the quote from @Insider2, but he can edit the original.

- Smurf-vomit blue patches on a circulated coin.

BryceM · August 9, 2017 10:20AM

Eye appeal and toning are the hardest aspects of grading to quantify. Splotchy is (sometimes) bad. Appropriate color is good. Innapropriate color is bad. What is appropriate? It depends.

No toning at all can be great or horrible, depending on context (BU Peace dollar vs dull, circulated 1800s silver).

Traditional album toning is often good. 58-D mint set toning is generally good while the exact same look on other coins would be innapropriate. Etc. etc.

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 10:21AM

@BStrauss3 said: "You have two bullets not a plus and minus."

Computer did it. Guess we need to put the +, - into ( ) per my edited post.

Smurf-vomit blue patches on a circulated coin. @messydesk

@BryceM Thanks for taking the time to reply I wanted to read SPECIFIC characteristics as Bob gave in his video. That way, the posts here would be like a "mini-seminar" on toning for all of us less informed collectors. I guess your post should be (so I can understand it):

(+) Traditional album toning (?) is good. But what does it look like?
(+ & -) Splotchy is either good or bad.
(+) Appropriate color (?) What is appropriate color?
(-) Inappropriate color (?)...ditto.

Thanks again!

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 10:43AM

Thanks for keeping an eye on me. To whomever edited my post just now THANKS! I was going back to do it myself. LOL.

brg5658 · August 9, 2017 10:51AM

@Insider2 said:
To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for NT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

This is clear as mud.

A (+) sign for NT, and a (-) for NT. What?

Maybe we can also post an (&) for NT, and a ($) for NT?

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 10:59AM

@brg5658 said:

@Insider2 said:
To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for NT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

This is clear as mud.

A (+) sign for NT, and a (-) for NT. What?

Maybe we can also post an (&) for NT, and a ($) for NT?

LOL. @messydesk figured it out just fine! Now, this from you? I am really disappointed. I hoped to learn something and start a very educational discussion for all of us less knowledgeable members. @brg5658, Do you know anything about toning or are you just cranky and trolling around today?

brg5658 · August 9, 2017 11:05AM

@Insider2 said:

@brg5658 said:

@Insider2 said:
To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for NT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

This is clear as mud.

A (+) sign for NT, and a (-) for NT. What?

Maybe we can also post an (&) for NT, and a ($) for NT?

LOL. @messydesk figured it out just fine! Now, this from you? I am really disappointed. I hoped to learn something and start a very educational discussion for all of us less knowledgeable members. @brg5658, Do you know anything about toning or are you just cranky and trolling around today?

Your post makes no sense. You've told folks to post using two different symbols, both for NT. We coin folks are in general a detail-oriented lot. I'm not trolling -- I'm just telling you that your post makes no sense as written. Period.

messydesk · August 9, 2017 11:09AM

@Insider2 said:

@brg5658 said:

@Insider2 said:
To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for NT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

This is clear as mud.

A (+) sign for NT, and a (-) for NT. What?

Maybe we can also post an (&) for NT, and a ($) for NT?

LOL. @messydesk figured it out just fine! Now, this from you? I am really disappointed. I hoped to learn something and start a very educational discussion for all of us less knowledgeable members. @brg5658, Do you know anything about toning or are you just cranky and trolling around today?

Re-read the second paragraph of your original post, where it says, "... minus (-) sign for NT ...." Say to yourself, "oops," then edit it to say, "minus (-) sign for AT ..." and all will be well.

ChrisH821 · August 9, 2017 11:09AM

@Insider2 said:

@brg5658 said:

@Insider2 said:
To keep this simple and avoid lots of repetition, let's try this. Use a plus (+) sign for characteristics of NT and a minus (-) sign for NT. I'll go first with two obvious replies:

This is clear as mud.

A (+) sign for NT, and a (-) for NT. What?

Maybe we can also post an (&) for NT, and a ($) for NT?

LOL. @messydesk figured it out just fine! Now, this from you? I am really disappointed. I hoped to learn something and start a very educational discussion for all of us less knowledgeable members. @brg5658, Do you know anything about toning or are you just cranky and trolling around today?

I think he is just poking at you since you used a (+) and a (-) for NT in your original post. Assuming you mean (+) for characteristics of NT and (-) for characteristics of AT?

Coin Finder · August 9, 2017 11:18AM

So, artificial toning is on the surface in the fields, lays on top of the coins surface not into the coins surface. It lacks depth.

-So if the toning is over marks or hairlines, it is usually AT

ModCrewman · August 9, 2017 11:41AM

Link to the video please?

BruceS · August 9, 2017 11:47AM

This is my first attempt on an ASE, i put it in a cardboard mailer one month ago. (With a special sauce)
I know Its butt ugly, but I think with practice ....i could get those blues and purples to pop.

bolivarshagnasty · August 9, 2017 12:57PM

@BruceS said:
This is my first attempt on an ASE, i put it in a cardboard mailer one month ago. (With a special sauce)
I know Its butt ugly, but I think with practice ....i could get those blues and purples to pop.

....as many have before you.

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 1:03PM

YIKES! I apologize to you @brg5658. I read your post quickly as abuse or making a joke. May I please have some more disagrees! Thanks to you, I have made the correction.

Now, @messydesk, I'm worried that you understood what I wrote...LOL.

@thebigeng said: " -So if the toning is over marks or hairlines, it is usually AT."

I don't think this is a valid characteristic of AT.

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 1:32PM

Here are two images. One is "pull-away" I think that is what it is called. The other is AT showing "bubble" pattern as chemical dried. Still looking for one with "toning flow" to post.

ColonelJessup · August 9, 2017 4:42PM

( + ) When it's done artfully and skillfully.
( - ) When it's done artfully and skillfully.

Meyhrig, Wayte Raymond, sulfur, horse glue, eye of newt, the salt breezes off the Gulf of Mexico and the pollen that gets underneath that windowsill.

You should see the report and list JA got from the PNG Coin Doctoring Definition Committee.

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 4:58PM

@ColonelJessup said: "You should see the report and list JA got from the PNG Coin Doctoring Definition Committee."

Thanks! I agree that I should see it...LOL. As a PNG member, perhaps I can get a copy.

ColonelJessup · August 9, 2017 5:36PM

ROFLMAO. I'm not a PNG member.
Maybe I wrote the uncondensed version, but I ceded rights to the Numismatic Consumer Alliance.
John Albanese is eager to hear stories, see results.

messydesk · August 9, 2017 6:58PM

@Insider2 said:
...

Now, @messydesk, I'm worried that you understood what I wrote...LOL.

Yeah, it happens once in a while.

Insider2 · August 9, 2017 8:45PM

So what's the story, a bunch of different things people put on their coins?

Ezmoney · August 9, 2017 9:10PM

@Insider2 Pull away and elevation chromatics are two of the biggies I look for along with the depth or thickness of the thin film interference. Here's a link to some very informative info that was probably parroted in the video you saw. Although there are plenty of "experts" on the boards that will tell you they are all done by docs...and coins don't naturally tone that way because they have seen it done before their very eyes. http://www.jhonecash.com/coins/tonedmorgans.asp#ntvsat

Insider2 · August 10, 2017 1:19PM

Thanks, I have this site in my favorites.

(+) Elevation chromatics.

ColonelJessup · August 11, 2017 5:38AM

Maybe ten years ago, an 1838 25c NGC MS67 appears in a Stacks auction.
Gene Gardner's coin dealer/physician - "You did that! Great job"
"Noooooo......."
"C'mon, you did that!"
"Nooooooo......... "

Next day, I brought in the catalogue from the 1985 Jimmy Hayes Sale.
"I didn't do that! That's why it gets done!"

Insider2 · August 11, 2017 8:23AM

@ColonelJessup said:
Maybe ten years ago, an 1838 25c NGC MS67 appears in a Stacks auction.
Gene Gardner's coin dealer/physician - "You did that! Great job"
"Noooooo......."
"C'mon, you did that!"
"Nooooooo......... "

Next day, I brought in the catalogue from the 1985 Jimmy Hayes Sale.
"I didn't do that! That's why it gets done!"

???? Remember, I'm mentally challenged. I really enjoy your stories but most of the time I'm at a loss.

Did someone believe you conserved a coin to raise its eye appeal? I understand that there were before and after images, right?

Rick, PLEASE WRITE A BOOK, or just write or record your experiences somewhere to be revealed only at your death.

ColonelJessup · August 11, 2017 9:09AM

Noooo, the images were the same. It was the mind of the viewer that was changed.

@MrEureka , knowing this individual, doubts that it changed much at all.

I would, if I knew how to linkify, post the image. If I knew (a few PMs of coaching might help, PLEASE), I still couldn't. Most SB, ANR and Stacks images are unavailable because that company's management has been too cheap (or simply cares too little) to consolidate their archives.

MrEureka · August 11, 2017 9:22AM

@ColonelJessup said:
Maybe ten years ago, an 1838 25c NGC MS67 appears in a Stacks auction.
Gene Gardner's coin dealer/physician - "You did that! Great job"
"Noooooo......."
"C'mon, you did that!"
"Nooooooo......... "

Next day, I brought in the catalogue from the 1985 Jimmy Hayes Sale.
"I didn't do that! That's why it gets done!"

CJ - Did you sell the coin to Jimmy? Just curious.

ColonelJessup · August 11, 2017 10:57AM

Sold it to those Chapman boys for $6.50 and lost track of it

What we're losing track of is that natural toning can, in some instances, be mimicked (and/or enhanced).

Resulting in "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" - as @Ezmoney notes, in both directions.

messydesk · August 11, 2017 11:24AM

@ColonelJessup said:
Noooo, the images were the same. It was the mind of the viewer that was changed.

@MrEureka , knowing this individual, doubts that it changed much at all.

I would, if I knew how to linkify, post the image. If I knew (a few PMs of coaching might help, PLEASE), I still couldn't. Most SB, ANR and Stacks images are unavailable because that company's management has been too cheap (or simply cares too little) to consolidate their archives.

Never fear, the Newman Numismatic Portal has taken care of this. All older Stacks catalogs are available, including this one. This link should take you to the lot in question (Lot 38 -- top of left page).

TheDukeK · August 11, 2017 3:07PM

Where is this video?

Insider2 · August 11, 2017 3:14PM

The toning video can be requested from the ANA Library if you are a member.

ShadyDave · August 11, 2017 3:19PM

link?

WinLoseWin · August 11, 2017 3:35PM

@ColonelJessup said:
Noooo, the images were the same. It was the mind of the viewer that was changed.

@MrEureka , knowing this individual, doubts that it changed much at all.

I would, if I knew how to linkify, post the image. If I knew (a few PMs of coaching might help, PLEASE), I still couldn't. Most SB, ANR and Stacks images are unavailable because that company's management has been too cheap (or simply cares too little) to consolidate their archives.

Happened to find it in Heritage's Jan 2009 FUN auction with no auction history noted. Appears to be unchanged since the 1985 Jimmy Hayes sale catalog. There are color pictures in that catalog which @messydesk linked above. Here is a direct link to the color plate which can be enlarged.

https://archive.org/stream/jimmyhayescollec1985stac#page/n3/mode/2up

Lot description link Heritage's Jan 2009 FUN. The Heritage close up photos look very washed out. I'm guessing the whole slab photos are more accurate. To me, the coin looks like old album toning or are there other old storage methods that could look like that?

https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-quarters/1838-25c-no-drapery-ms67-ngc/a/1121-3738.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

.
.

Insider2 · August 11, 2017 3:40PM

Sorry, you'll need to do the searching for yourselves as I am computer illiterate.

coindeuce · August 11, 2017 6:20PM

@Insider2 said:
YIKES! I apologize to you @brg5658. I read your post quickly as abuse or making a joke. May I please have some more disagrees! Thanks to you, I have made the correction.

Now, @messydesk, I'm worried that you understood what I wrote...LOL.

@thebigeng said: " -So if the toning is over marks or hairlines, it is usually AT."

I don't think this is a valid characteristic of AT.

Characteristic shmaracteristic. Means, motive and opportunity are the primary warning signals. See the forest, even if the trees are in the way.

coindeuce · August 11, 2017 6:22PM

The archived threads here by Sunnywood about toning should be a revelation to you, I2

coindeuce · August 11, 2017 6:26PM

@Insider2 said:
So what's the story, a bunch of different things people put on their coins?

One of the very best Indian Cent toners used a method so simple it would make you cry from laughing so hard. I swore to God I would never divulge that trick.

coindeuce · August 11, 2017 6:38PM

I was in Bob Campbell's "Counterfeit and Altered Coin Detection" course at the A.N.A. summer seminar a decade ago, when he staged a live phone call for the class with a "Dr. X" who allegedly was the master of deceiving the TPG's for a long time on ATed Morgan Dollars. The guy talked very candidly about how lucrative his practice was, with absolutely no reservations. Some of us were speechless to hear the numbers that were being thrown around like it was status quo. I actually thought Bob expected some of us to start yelling at the guy and creating a mob scene.

Insider2 · September 4, 2017 9:01PM

I always heard that in order to detect altered coins you should know how they are made. Bob knows a lot. I never got to take his class.

cameonut2011 · September 4, 2017 9:50PM

What do we use for coins that are AT but in straight graded slabs?

Insider2 · September 5, 2017 9:28AM

@cameonut2011 said: "What do we use for coins that are AT but in straight graded slabs?"

First, make sure a toning color and pattern that was formerly considered AT has not become market acceptable. Then, when you are sure you are correct, the power of the pen and purse!

shorecoll · September 5, 2017 11:01AM

I had a 1795 half from the Hayes sale that was tooled, but it took the BHNC guys 20 years to figure out that it was. I bought it cheap, then sold it cheap with full disclosure to a dealer, I'm willing to bet that it's now in a straight grade holder.

I just viewed Bob Campbell's ANA Video on toning and have a request.

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