Gray Sheet: Time for a new format?
coinkat
Posts: 23,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
The Gray or Grey Sheet has been around for decades. There has been a bid and ask price for coins at a certain grade level. Over the past four decades, the art of grading has undergone a continuous revolution with TPG, new grade levels and of course, those looking at the grading that determine whether the grade is appropriate. So...in considering that most coins at a certain grade are just not equal, is it reasonable for there to be one bid number instead of a bid range that is more reflective of what actually exists in the market place? And of course there is the same need for an ask range as well.
From where I sit, this seems overdue... And such a change might help further distinguish and reward quality for the grade over mediocrity.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Comments
Well! I have been a subscriber since the early 90's. Always renewed for 2 years at a time. Resubscribed last year...which I thought was for 2 years...according to my subscription only 1. I will not be renewing this year. I have much better places to use my money since the subscription rate has more than doubled! Anyway...the greysheet is an absolute joke(except on the most common dates) when it comes to nice Barber material! I find this surprising since the supposed market maker in Barber material is now the owner!
The Grey Sheet originated in the US and is controlled by NGC folks as of last year or the year before if I recall. NGC is based in Florida.
"Grey"is most popular in the UK.
"Gray" is more appropriate for the US.
So...yes, I think it is time that they rename the sheets appropriately.
The entire concept seems a bit obsolete to me with ready access to auction history/results, especially when considering better material. Sheets are handy for cheaper material that doesn't hit the auction block though.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Thank you for the suggestion. You are correct that it is impossible in today's market to put a singe value on every coin in that particular grade. Frankly, that's been true forever and will always be true. At CDN we do our best to put an accurate representation of what you may expect to pay (as a dealer) for a specific coin. We are emphatic when we say to readers that the number is an indication only. You should also refer to other price guides like CU, auction records, etc to make your best judgement. We DO claim to offer the best pricing overall and this is an EXTREMELY challenging market.
And yes, as @amwldcoin says, are prices are not cheap for this information. Fortunately, there are over 10,000 paid subscribers who disagree with him that our prices are an "absolute joke". Anyone is welcome to politely send us price corrections/guidance. We'd love to hear from you.
Finally, in response to @keyman64, we are NOT controlled by NGC, or anyone. We have partnership interests that overlap NGC and Heritage ownership but we NEVER receive orders from anyone. CDN is entirely objective and independent. That's our most valuable attribute.
Thanks,
John
p.s. we now post our CPG (Retail) values FREE on our web site with no login necessary. Paid subscribers get Grey, Blue, Green, price charts, etc. This is brand new and we're added features every week. (link). There are many more grades here on some series (like Barbers) than we can put in print, so it's really useful.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
The Greysheet will never be relevant for top quality material. It is a price guide of widgets, the "average" coin.
I do my best to own "A" coins. If I ever see someone pull out the Greysheet during a discussion on a coin that im trying to sell, I want to smack my self in the face, not going to reach a deal. If it is for a coin I'm trying to buy, I know I'm probably getting a great deal.
Latin American Collection
It needs a centerfold.
Something to get YNs interested.
Boosibri-
While I completely agree that the Grey sheet is largely irrelevant in terms of collectors selling A coins or buying them, it should not serve as a basis to justify lower values or expectations of what quality is worth... either to buy or sell it. And what continues to happen is the value of quality has been dragged down by mediocrity... At least on paper. That needs to change which is why there is a fundamental reason for the need for price ranges...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I agree. With auctions prices so readily available, I don't see the value add in the publication
Latin American Collection
John. I would like you to discuss the quality of coin you are pricing in the grey sheet. Are you suggesting the bids are for CAC or CAC quality coins being superior for the grade, average coins for the grade that may on a good day CAC, or coins that might slab at the grade but not CAC? This question would be most relevant for the monthly and quarterly sheets.
There have been some differing opinions on what coins you are representing.
Thanks!
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
The Greysheet is an important tool for me. I frequently find myself in remote areas without access to the internet or unable to take the time to look-up the latest auction records for a multitude of coins. In those cases, the Greysheet is invaluable. It's also my best printed source (therefore fastest) When I need a quick ballpark idea of value.
John F. is correct in that you should not use a single source for pricing more valuable coins. I use multiple sources along with my own experience in those cases.
I have not had a subscription in decades.
As long as the CDN provides market estimates and calls them bids and asks, people will be confused and the sheet will be misused.
And as long as the CDN reports bids and asks that are no longer in effect, people are going to work on the assumption that they should be trying to buy coins below "bid".
I would prefer that they publish one sheet that reports live sight-unseen bids (and for generics, asks) for PCGS, NGC and CAC, and nothing more. And another sheet that reports wholesale market estimates for coins typical for the grade, without calling them bids or asks.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
B&Ms use the grey sheet for obvious reasons... to low ball buy prices
Shame on some who say a Gray sheet Is too high in price .. if it is walk away .. someone else will think otherwise.
How would coin owners like to be told be told their coins are over priced ? Their reaction?
About ten years ago, I walk into a Stacks sale and ask @DaveW "What's bid on a 72-CC 25c in VF?". He replies "Greysheet won't do you any good on that" and I respond "I've got to have some number to triple!".
Still didn't buy it
Walk up to me with an NCS'd PR67CAM Morgan? What's basal value, 40% of a virgin CAC "A" coin? Evidently a shrinking pool of uninformed potential victims.
Quote me 1K over whatever CAC bid is today on any pre-1838 gold. If I start dialing, it's 80% you'll walk away smiling. A couple of months ago, I pushed a buyer hard and made $750 on an MCMVII in MS64 CAC with the seller and coin in front of me. Easy-peasy. Would you have rather heard a song-and-dance about paying "over" or "under" bid? A PR68 PCGS, CAC Barber 50c. Even with a sticker, if it's a B coin I don't want it. That's me, today, with my customer list and bank balance. I'm not the "Market", just a data point.
Without separate reported levels for CAC and not-CAC, both wholesale and retail calculations put you more at the dealer's mercy.
This is because you made a conscious deliberate decision to NOT perform due diligence.
I like the improvements and updated pricing format / commentary. They are doing a great job. I find their format / organization just fine and well organized.
If there's ever a Bieber centerfold in a CDN publication just to attract YNs, I will be having a bonfire in the atrium of the next major show!!! LOL.
Everyone has their opinion of the sheet it is handy tool for me in making bids / offers (range between blue and grey) and at times as a retail markup base.
Wish the monthly guide would go back and have the featured article coin related like date by date analysis of coin series or coin related topic under previous ownership as compared to interview with Director of Mint or other history articles you can find else where.
I like it because it shows the spreads right there in once glance, that's a very valuable tool. bigger font would be nice....
Thats what your loupe is for! You thought all those people at shows are walking around with them around their necks to look at coins? HA!!!
I concur with @Veep
It is a valuable tool if understood and used properly
JMHO
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
It's great that the CDN offers the CPG online in a readily useable, electronic format. Thanks! So much for the "bonus" section to the ANA's The Numismatist magazine. Having sections of the CPG printed at various times in the magazine seems to be darn near meaningless for today's collectors.
Thanks, John.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@BustDMs Thanks for asking. Come to our meeting at the ANA next week (Wednesday at 11:30am) where we will discuss topics like this and more in person. For those who cannot attend we will post a video online asap. Also, we write extensively on our pricing strategies (and market theories) on a weekly basis. You can access all of this free on our blog site (link).
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)