Who is better served by the price guides:Dealers,Collectors,Buyers, or Sellers?
BLUEJAYWAY
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Do they do more harm than good?
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
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Dealers.
I believe it helps dealers more..
When we buy from a dealer, they say they go by highest found price guide, CACed coins are way more than price guide.
When you sell it to them, price guide doesn't matter, they quote a paltry value sometimes as low as 50% of price guide, if the Coin is CACed, the dealer says, "CAC means its just graded correctly, nothing else"
Anyways, price guides shold reflect market price and not some inflated values.
It all depends. If the price guide is set high to fool collectors it's bad, but knowledgeable collectors and dealers get to know or already know the score. Many years ago a well-known token and medal dealer put out a supplement for the Julian 19th century American Medal variety book. The book had some very helpful mintage information, but the price quotes were way too high for what that dealer hoped would work to his benefit. The numbers became more accurate a decade or so later.
Some auction houses put price estimates on their lots. It has been my experience that those estimates are almost always too low. Why? Because the auction house thinks that will draw in more bidders, who might think, “Hey, I might have a chance to buy this item after all!” Usually those bidders go home disappointed.
Price guides are just that, guides. But if they are done in good faith, they can be of use to all concerned. If a dealer is asking 10 or 20 % over the price guide, that might be okay. BUT if he is asking 200, 300, 400 or even more percent over a well respected price guide, he is probably gouging. You may not believe it, but those guys are out there. I’ve run into them. More often than not they dealing on the dark side where prices are not as fluid as they are in the U.S. market.
Auction Results serve EVERYONE well. Other stuff, not so much.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Only dealers. When I try to use them in my favor they are useless. I go in thinking a number I got form a price guide and always get less than I was hoping. My local dealer is notorious for really undercutting grey sheet. I have stopped even selling to him. Ebay seems to be getting bad too. I'm scared to even attempt live auctions anymore.
The coin market is becoming more and more selective. This is tending to make price guides less and less useful to all but the most experienced and active in the market. The casual collector hasn't got a chance.
I believe it helps dealers more..
When we buy from a dealer, they say they go by highest found price guide, CACed coins are way more than price guide.
When you sell it to them, price guide doesn't matter, they quote a paltry value sometimes as low as 50% of price guide, if the coin is CACed, the dealer says, "CAC means its just graded correctly, nothing else, no premiums"
Anyways, price guides should reflect market prices and not some inflated values.
It all depends upon what you selling, but if your local dealer is paying very low prices for anything other than Proof sets and other "modern crap" he either has no presence in the market for nice coins, or he's a fool. If you can buy good coins that you can turn quickly by paying fair prices, you are fool to be greedy. I can see using 10 percent under bid as a general policy, but anything much below that for nice material is just greed.
No, he's a very good dealer, he just clearly wants to maximize his profit. He's the greedy one for sure. I could buy a coin for him for $500, then sell it back to him the next week...for $100 less than I paid. He simply adds his own depreciation to coins when he buys. He's nowhere near greysheet. Its quite aggravating. That's why I don't sell to him. That and I think because of my frequency buying from him I would get some customer appreciation. I'm still waiting for that.
All you need to do is low ball a collector who has good material a time or two, and that collector won't be back. Paying $400 for something you sold for $500 is not unfair. If he has a shop, he's got plenty of overhead. If he is paying lower prices for raw coins, that is understandable because you have to spend more money on grading fees and postage and figure in the "unexpected low grade risk." BUT if he is paying zip for high quality, cerfified collector coins, he's a fool.
I went in there Saturday with 5 high quality, certified, collectors coins and he wouldn't pay me zip. The offer for each coin was so low, I don't sell any of them. He always tells me after I complain about his offers, "put them on ebay, see what you get." So, that's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to waist my breath on trying to sell to him anymore.
Show me a price guide where the prices are not inflated. That should answer the OP's question in the title.
Dealers of course benefit from the guides the most. They use them when it is to their advantage and they disregard them when it is to their advantage.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
No one believes the retail price guides who has been around the hobby collecting for long or has money to spend. Numismedia wholesale is even high sometimes as well as Greysheet unless the coin is all there.
Dealers!
- Jim
I sell stuff to dealers all the time and get full red book prices . Anyone who wants to learn my secret just send me their mailing address and I'll shoot it it out to them in tomorrows mail. Just post a note whether you want me to send the 1995 or the 1997 copy of the redbook with it .
Dealers . Throw out the price guides on this coin ! "I paid way over ask for this one" " I paid up for the coin" "You can't buy them at sheet" uhhh okay. So how much for my 66+ coin here? Hold on I got to check Heritage auction prices let's see a fudgely one sold for $500 under bid so take 20% off that and...........Dealers.
of course you need price guides. Otherwise how do you judge a price asked?
I have asked dealers 'what does the sheet say' if they say who cares, I walk, how can I judge the fairness of the ask price if I have nothing to compare it to.
Should I just use a gut reaction? If I start to shake is the price too high or a very great deal?
BHNC #203
Everyone
And collectors will use the same information in both the same and the opposite direction.
The wiser ones pay up for data in order to perform their own due diligence.
A well-known story from the mid-80's.
Guy walks up to the Heritage table and asks for a quote on a raw 63++ 1876 $5.
No CDN Quarterly, just a Redbook price estimate for an Unc when 95% or more of the greatest dealers had never seen a handful in their lifetimes. Dave Akers' Auction Records series was available.
Before Heritage, as the seller relates after a fast handshake at $5500, he was offered nothing above $3500.
JH simply responds that he knows he can make a fair profit at that price.
The guy came back the next day with a PP $50.
"Your dealer" doesn't need to have the grading, knowledge and extrapolational skills of a genius. If he can't give you an informed quote with some CCE trades and auction results on a coin worth over $1000 within 24 hours, he is totally unconnected to anyone he might sell it to outside of a radius of 15 miles.
Informed, he will happily and endlessly sell on 15% commission or pay 85% of "fair" and know what you take in your coffee on the second visit.
Show me any priceguide that even come close to the average price a F-AU Barber Half sells for at auction! Maybe they are close on common dates...but not on semi keys and keys(aside from maybe the 04-S).
the source of the buyers price guide data is important, no-one goes to that much trouble unless they ultimately have less skin to lose than another. It appears the price guides are not updated nearly enough, to me anyway, yet, there they are.
Current ebay, heritage, etc., auction prices are probably a better guesstimate than the price guides.
Pricguides are what one makes of them. The goal is to get a composite. I also refer to dealer price lists and ads in publications like CW and NN to see what a certain coin is priced at in researching pricing for my inventory. One of these dealers I even have an AP in my phone. I will buy a coin at a show and put a sticker on the back w cost and sales codes after I photo it and list on the Bay then put in my display case. I may also review CF, CW, NN, CDN (bid plus standard industry markup), cost plus to arrive at what I really want sell it for. This way Bonzo Gombah who comes up to my table trying low ball me with his spiel how he is so all knowing is simply blowing in the wind with me.
People who bash price guides give me the impression they really don't know anything about pricing, too lazy do their homework, or just out to rip me.
You have to have someplace to start.
BHNC #203
I think that is a fairly broad statement that does not apply in many cases. I know dealers that are over retail price guide with just about everything they sell, and they sell their inventory as fast as they can get it in. Quality never goes down to greysheet prices, dreck and common stuff does tho'. Dealers who sell quality also pay up for quality and typically above greysheet.
Best, SH
It all comes down to concrete examples. I would agree on that with rare gold, ala DW or Coin Rarities online, but not a high percentage of the Great Collections or HA coins go at the retail guide pricing.
Price guides benefit those who know how to use them.
That's often the dealers, but it doesn't have to be.
All are just that.....guides.
The guides are based on? Market prices realized.
What is a "market price"?
Price guides are tricky. They can be used against the uninitiated on both sides of a transaction. Plus no two coins are exactly alike so guide is a liberal interpretation of price
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Easy answer - dealers.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.