Talk about horrible logic. Jaguars has a road block understanding that none of the other silver 1794 dollars known are certified as SPECIMEN. Last I knew, that meant it is UNIQUE. The only thing potentially "unique" about a 1933 DE is that one of the current 13 publicly known specimens is "considered" to be legal/monetized. Come up with $5 MILL cash (or preferably untraceable bullion) and I'm sure there will be dealers knocking at your door willing to help you find a 1933 DE. While not LEGAL to own, it would in your personal and private cabinet to enjoy as you see fit....just like the current owners of 1964-D Peace Dollars do. Other 1933 DE's have been reportedly seen by respected dealers long before the Langbord coins hit the market. I'd bet heavily on more 1933 DE's being out there vs. another silver 1794 Specimen $.
I challenge Jaguar to show me a 2nd SPECIMEN 1794 dollar....or even point to one rumored to be in existence. If not, the argument of 100+ 1794 dollars existing holds little merit. There are numerous US coins where hundreds or thousands exist....yet a single specimen/proof coin brings a king's ransom....one needs to look no further than 1801-1803 $ specimen/proof/Novodels. The coin market treats them very differently than the very available business strikes fetching $500-$10,000 in circ grades. How about the rare specimen/proof strikings of branch mint Morgan silver dollars where hundreds of thousand to millions of business strikes were minted. You can keep arguing your points but the majority of posters in this thread have sided with the 1794....for obvious reasons.
Besides level of conservation, a major plus of the 1794 $ is first year of type, possibly first US dollar struck. Type collectors (especially those doing 1st year of type) need to have one. Type collectors FAR out weigh date collectors, especially in a series like Choice/Gem dated/mint marked Saints where the number of top sets can be counted on your fingers. You might not be able to find 13 top notch Saint collectors who could afford or would buy one of the 13 1933's if offered up....at least at $4-$5 MILL and up.
Type coinage really didn't shift into gear until the 1970's and early 1980's. Up to that point, dates mattered more than type. !853 arrows and rays quarters and halves are very common when it comes to mid-19th century coinage. Yet the shift into type collecting 40 yrs ago starting pushing the prices of AU/UNC/gem examples much higher. I never desired an unc 1853 A&R quarter back in 1975-1980 because it was the most common date of the series. Even in MS64 it's about the most common date in the series. Yet, type coin status has changed its pricing significantly. Same has been done to 1794 dollars. While the story of the 1794 dollar has improved the past 25 yrs...the story of the 1933 DE's is now quite muddled.
@Coinosaurus said:
It's not ironic, it's made of nickel. Always important to keep our coin composition straight.
I never knew that "composition" was a critical factor in whether the govt goes after "questionably obtained" USMint coinage. My first question would be then I'm sure if a 1964-d peace dollar showed up it would not be questioned, since it's not made of gold, just cheap silver. And then there's the 1974 aluminum cent, as cheap as can be, that was returned to the US government. Doesn't seem to me that "composition" makes a difference as to what the US Govt will go after. Though I'd agree that gold coinage gets their attention sooner....at least it did when gold coinage was still circulating legal tender. Today, it's whatever catches their fancy. To date, for whatever reasons, they just never fancied the 1913 Lib nickels all that much. If something like that occurred with nickel coins in the last 50 yrs....they'd have been confiscated in a heart beat.
@Zoins said:
Is the 1933 DE the last US circulation gold coin?
Is this the first US silver dollar vs the last circulation gold coin?
Yes and Yes. But the real argument is the very first struck under specimen-like conditions 1794 vs. the very last or very first 1933 DE struck/specimen 1933 DE. The former potentially exists in the Carter 1794. PCGS determined it was a specimen coin...probably after consulting with other experts. Their opinion, not mine or Bill Jones' or Jaguar's. The 3 possibilities of the latter just do not exist. Having the very last struck 1933 DE in specimen format and preserved as such...would be quite a coin. Sadly, it doesn't exist as the production run of 1933 Saints were just for commerce....not for collectors or posterity.
There are "specimen" high reliefs for the first year of Saint Gaudens' issue 1907...UHR proofs of which about 2 dozen were minted....special coins worth far more than regular high reliefs. Worth up to $2-$3 MILL each. To me, much more important than a 1933 Saint where 445K were originally minted....and apparently too many 1933 DE's found their way out of the mint. Imagine if a bag of those (or even 27-d) found their way over to Europe and are still waiting to be discovered?
@Zoins said:
Is the 1933 DE the last US circulation gold coin?
Is this the first US silver dollar vs the last circulation gold coin?
Yes and Yes. But the real argument is the very first struck under specimen-like conditions 1794 vs. the very last or very first struck/specimen 1933 DE. The former potentially exists in the Carter 1794. The 3 possibilities of the latter just do not exist. Having the very last struck 1933 in specimen format and preserved as such...would be quite a coin. Sadly, it doesn't exist as the production run of 1933 Saints were just for commerce....not for collectors or posterity.
"Just for commerce" is an interesting statement as some think those are the most interesting coins, vs. special issues for collectors/posterity.
The good thing about collecting is that people can have all types of interests.
@tradedollarnut said:
And if another 1933 shows up with even better documentation that it's the Farouk coin?
Possibly, and I suggested that the best papers from a collector's standpoint would be a cashier's receipt like exists for the 1933 eagle. If a cashier's receipt exists for a 1933 double eagle then all 1933 double eagles could become legal like all 1933 eagles.
Imagine if a receipt was found in the SDB that had the Langbord coins?
To all interested in the 1933 Saint, I highly recommend reading this great book ("Illegal Tender"). It tells the amazing story of this coin by David Tripp, who served as government's expert witness on this subject. It's up to you to decide if you believe the facts he sets forth, but they are compelling and well researched. link
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I'm not sure how much trust I put in David Tripp's book. In court, he referred to an "orphan document".
When he was cross-examined, he admitted that he used that term to refer to a document that didn't
support his conclusion.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
@RichieURich said:
I'm not sure how much trust I put in David Tripp's book. In court, he referred to an "orphan document".
When he was cross-examined, he admitted that he used that term to refer to a document that didn't
support his conclusion.
"History is written by the victors." - Winston Churchill -
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Great thread with some interesting concepts. Personally, if it were a voting issue, I would vote for the 1794 SP66+ coin.... Further, I believe other '33 DE's exist in private hands. I have spoken with dealers who have seen them. Also, '64D Peace dollars... they are out there. None, however, can compare with the 1794 in rarity or history. Cheers, RickO
@RichieURich said:
I'm not sure how much trust I put in David Tripp's book. In court, he referred to an "orphan document".
When he was cross-examined, he admitted that he used that term to refer to a document that didn't
support his conclusion.
I put way more stock in Roger Burdette's account. Tripp, not so much. Too much trying to connect the dots. Reads like a fantasy novel
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Zoins said: @RogerB was also an expert witness, but for the Langbords. Might be interesting if Tripp got an account here to discuss.
Not going to happen. I believe Roger can't discuss it further anyways so it would be one way.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Zoins said: @RogerB was also an expert witness, but for the Langbords. Might be interesting if Tripp got an account here to discuss.
Not going to happen. I believe Roger can't discuss it further anyways so it would be one way.
mark
Litigation is over - why not?
I remember Roger stating he couldn'discuss it further awhile back . Maybe it's now wouldn't. Maybe I'm wrong. It would be great if he did
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Until have permission from the Langboard attorney, I cannot discuss anything about the case. Even when that occurs, it might not be productive to comment. I plan no book on the subject.
@roadrunner said:
Talk about horrible logic. Jaguars has a road block understanding that none of the other silver 1794 dollars known are certified as SPECIMEN. Last I knew, that meant it is UNIQUE. The only thing potentially "unique" about a 1933 DE is that one of the current 13 publicly known specimens is "considered" to be legal/monetized. Come up with $5 MILL cash (or preferably untraceable bullion) and I'm sure there will be dealers knocking at your door willing to help you find a 1933 DE. While not LEGAL to own, it would in your personal and private cabinet to enjoy as you see fit....just like the current owners of 1964-D Peace Dollars do. Other 1933 DE's have been reportedly seen by respected dealers long before the Langbord coins hit the market. I'd bet heavily on more 1933 DE's being out there vs. another silver 1794 Specimen $.
I challenge Jaguar to show me a 2nd SPECIMEN 1794 dollar....or even point to one rumored to be in existence. If not, the argument of 100+ 1794 dollars existing holds little merit. There are numerous US coins where hundreds or thousands exist....yet a single specimen/proof coin brings a king's ransom....one needs to look no further than 1801-1803 $ specimen/proof/Novodels. The coin market treats them very differently than the very available business strikes fetching $500-$10,000 in circ grades. How about the rare specimen/proof strikings of branch mint Morgan silver dollars where hundreds of thousand to millions of business strikes were minted. You can keep arguing your points but the majority of posters in this thread have sided with the 1794....for obvious reasons.
What if the goal isn't to own an illegal coin but a legal one?
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1933 Double Eagle that is legal to own
Also, if some collectors are okay to own an illegal coin, how can they be sure they don't own counterfeits? With many counterfeits like the Gerow Paul Franklin Hoard and Micro-O Morgans, it takes a lot of scrutiny to discover counterfeits. If the black market of rare coins mentioned exists, I'd be skeptical of the coins traded and wouldn't be surprised if it has counterfeits.
I'm a bit surprised by the passion behind which one "should" be more expensive. At a certain level, collectibles are driven be collector interest so it depends on which one happens to have one or two collectors that want to pay more for it at a time a seller is willing to sell. For rare coins, prices of coins can change significantly if just one collector enters or exists the market for a coin.
A poll showing personal opinion might have been more fitting
What if the goal isn't to own an illegal coin but a legal one?
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1933 Double Eagle that is legal to own
Also, if some collectors are okay to own an illegal coin, how can they be sure they don't own counterfeits? With many counterfeits like the Gerow Paul Franklin Hoard and Micro-O Morgans, it takes a lot of scrutiny to discover counterfeits. If the black market of rare coins mentioned exists, I'd be skeptical of the coins traded and wouldn't be surprised if it has counterfeits.
What if the supposed "legal" coin to own is not really the ex-Farouk coin, and therefore is technically not even legal to own? Can legality be rescinded? Anyone ever seen a high grade and decent looking 1933 $20 counterfeit that could pass by a 5th grader YN? It would have to pass a lot of scrutiny with respect to detailed ownership since 1933 to pass muster (ie like the Switt coins). Provenance matters.
Anyone contemplating purchasing a potentially legit 1933 $20 probably has a top notch authenticator/grader/dealer working for them. Who wouldn't? I'm sure none of them want their names plastered about. When the supposed ex-Farouk coin was brought back into the US for potential sale....who "authenticated" that coin for the potential players? Let's be clear on this. According to the US Govt from 1933-2001, ALL 1933 $20 Saints were illegal to own. So let's not get too righteous on the one coin supposedly "being legal" for the past 16 years. When you have 12 others being "not legal" that poses a bigger problem.
The goal is generally to own a 1933 DE....for those who desire to. I doubt the people that own a 1964-D Peace Dollar could care less that the coin is "illegal" to own per the USGovt. If it had been passed down to me in my family, I know I wouldn't be ashamed about it. And who can say the coin wasn't obtained legally right from the Denver mint in 1964...just like some 1933 DE's made it out of the Philly mint in 1933....included one or some owned by the US Treasury Secretary....the boss of the US Mint. Just because US Govt has an "opinion" (and the biggest stick and unlimited lawyers working for printed fiat), doesn't mean they are 100% right. How many rare USMint patterns, trials, restrikes, 1 offs, and other so-called rarities made in the 1834-1913 era come with certificates of authenticity/legality from the US Mint/Secret Service?
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1794 FH $ Silver Gem SPECIMEN. 223 years and no joy.
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1933 Double Eagle that is LEGAL to own
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1794 FH $ Silver Gem SPECIMEN
I think both of those are good challenges.
Any bets on which one will happen first?
I do recall discussions around around the time the 1933 DE was to be sold, that the coin itself did not match up to early photos of the Farouk specimen. I am not aware of any documented un-broken chain of physical custody that proves the coin that was sold was actually the Farouk specimen.
I do recall discussions around around the time the 1933 DE was to be sold, that the coin itself did not match up to early photos of the Farouk specimen. I am not aware of any documented un-broken chain of physical custody that proves the coin that was sold was actually the Farouk specimen.
With the two dozen (or more) 1933 DE's that were out there in the 1934-1954 era, it's almost logical that the one specimen that was actually auctioned as the KFC coin....is NOT the Farouk coin.
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1933 Double Eagle that is LEGAL to own
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1794 FH $ Silver Gem SPECIMEN
I think both of those are good challenges.
Any bets on which one will happen first?
I do recall discussions around around the time the 1933 DE was to be sold, that the coin itself did not match up to early photos of the Farouk specimen. I am not aware of any documented un-broken chain of physical custody that proves the coin that was sold was actually the Farouk specimen.
That's very interesting. Are any photos available to verify, of either the early Farouk specimen photos or of the Fenton specimen?
If a 1933 DE was offered for sale today, could it be authenticated as either the Farouk or Fenton specimens?
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1933 Double Eagle that is LEGAL to own
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1794 FH $ Silver Gem SPECIMEN
I think both of those are good challenges.
Any bets on which one will happen first?
I do recall discussions around around the time the 1933 DE was to be sold, that the coin itself did not match up to early photos of the Farouk specimen. I am not aware of any documented un-broken chain of physical custody that proves the coin that was sold was actually the Farouk specimen.
That's very interesting. Are any photos available to verify, of either the early Farouk specimen photos or of the Fenton specimen?
If a 1933 DE was offered for sale today, could it be authenticated as either the Farouk or Fenton specimens?
The Fenton specimen was the one that was monetized and auctioned off. We know this to be true, as the coin itself was seized while it was in Fenton's possession. While the auction was just a single-lot auction, there was a full catalog prepared for the sale, with pictures of the coin.
The Farouk specimen was to be auctioned by Sotheby's in the early 1950's, along with other coins from King Farouk. I do not have a copy of that auction catalog handy, but the piece was described in the catalog, and I believe the catalog would have included a photograph of the coin.
@7Jaguars said:
Farouk coin photos of poor quality. I am bowing out of this discussion as several of the participants are beyond further discourse.
I understand your position that there exists over a hundred specimens of silver dollars minted in 1794, and I agree with that. However, the particular Specimen being discussed is unique in its method of manufacture. I presume you recognize the difference between circulation-strike coins and coins made intentionally for collectors in "proof" formats. That is the comparison here. There are over one hundred 1794 dollars that were minted as circulation-strike coins, and one specimen that was struck by Special methods, and coin collectors distinguish between the two.
For example, the 1909 VDB Lincoln cent is a very popular and notable coin. PCGSCoinFacts states that 27,995,000 of those were struck in 1909. Of those PCGS has graded 10,900 as being MS65 or higher. In the grade of PCGS-MS66RD, the CoinFacts estimated value is $350.
Now, let's look that the Proof version of the 1909 VDB cent. PCGSCoinFacts states that 1,194 of those were struck in 1909. Of those PCGS has graded 65 as being PR65 or higher. In the grade of PCGS-PR66RD, the CoinFacts estimated value is $70,000! That 200 times the value of a beautiful MS66RD circulation strike piece!
The method of manufacture DOES have significance!
The Pogue specimen of the 1794 Dollar, graded MS66 sold at auction for essentially $5 million. Does that mean the SP66 1794 dollar is worth 200 times as much? (That would make the SP66 worth $1 Billion!!) Obviously not, but clearly, the unique Specimen strike status of the particular 1794 under discussion here does matter!
@tradedollarnut said:
The US Government could make any of those dozen legal to own on a whim...but it cannot go back and strike another specimen 1794$1
The Chinese Govt is working hard on coming up with the necessary 1794 dies.
The US Govt could also be sitting on the supposedly "melted" 9 or so 1933 DE's they confiscated in the 1930's to 1950's. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Did the Smithsonian's 2 supposedly come from those 9?
@roadrunner said:
The US Govt could also be sitting on the supposedly "melted" 9 or so 1933 DE's they confiscated in the 1930's to 1950's. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Did the Smithsonian's 2 supposedly come from those 9?
No. I've seen the accession record in Smithsonian. Their two pieces came over in 1934, if memory serves.
This is the bookkeeping entry for March 10, 1933 transferring 1932 coins to Smithsonian. The 1934 transfer entry is similar, but was in October (I think ....don't have the file with me right now.)
Comments
Talk about horrible logic. Jaguars has a road block understanding that none of the other silver 1794 dollars known are certified as SPECIMEN. Last I knew, that meant it is UNIQUE. The only thing potentially "unique" about a 1933 DE is that one of the current 13 publicly known specimens is "considered" to be legal/monetized. Come up with $5 MILL cash (or preferably untraceable bullion) and I'm sure there will be dealers knocking at your door willing to help you find a 1933 DE. While not LEGAL to own, it would in your personal and private cabinet to enjoy as you see fit....just like the current owners of 1964-D Peace Dollars do. Other 1933 DE's have been reportedly seen by respected dealers long before the Langbord coins hit the market. I'd bet heavily on more 1933 DE's being out there vs. another silver 1794 Specimen $.
I challenge Jaguar to show me a 2nd SPECIMEN 1794 dollar....or even point to one rumored to be in existence. If not, the argument of 100+ 1794 dollars existing holds little merit. There are numerous US coins where hundreds or thousands exist....yet a single specimen/proof coin brings a king's ransom....one needs to look no further than 1801-1803 $ specimen/proof/Novodels. The coin market treats them very differently than the very available business strikes fetching $500-$10,000 in circ grades. How about the rare specimen/proof strikings of branch mint Morgan silver dollars where hundreds of thousand to millions of business strikes were minted. You can keep arguing your points but the majority of posters in this thread have sided with the 1794....for obvious reasons.
Besides level of conservation, a major plus of the 1794 $ is first year of type, possibly first US dollar struck. Type collectors (especially those doing 1st year of type) need to have one. Type collectors FAR out weigh date collectors, especially in a series like Choice/Gem dated/mint marked Saints where the number of top sets can be counted on your fingers. You might not be able to find 13 top notch Saint collectors who could afford or would buy one of the 13 1933's if offered up....at least at $4-$5 MILL and up.
Type coinage really didn't shift into gear until the 1970's and early 1980's. Up to that point, dates mattered more than type. !853 arrows and rays quarters and halves are very common when it comes to mid-19th century coinage. Yet the shift into type collecting 40 yrs ago starting pushing the prices of AU/UNC/gem examples much higher. I never desired an unc 1853 A&R quarter back in 1975-1980 because it was the most common date of the series. Even in MS64 it's about the most common date in the series. Yet, type coin status has changed its pricing significantly. Same has been done to 1794 dollars. While the story of the 1794 dollar has improved the past 25 yrs...the story of the 1933 DE's is now quite muddled.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces75813.html
I messed up....there are specimen strikings of the 1933 Saint for sale.
I never knew that "composition" was a critical factor in whether the govt goes after "questionably obtained" USMint coinage. My first question would be then I'm sure if a 1964-d peace dollar showed up it would not be questioned, since it's not made of gold, just cheap silver. And then there's the 1974 aluminum cent, as cheap as can be, that was returned to the US government. Doesn't seem to me that "composition" makes a difference as to what the US Govt will go after. Though I'd agree that gold coinage gets their attention sooner....at least it did when gold coinage was still circulating legal tender. Today, it's whatever catches their fancy. To date, for whatever reasons, they just never fancied the 1913 Lib nickels all that much. If something like that occurred with nickel coins in the last 50 yrs....they'd have been confiscated in a heart beat.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-1974-aluminum-penny-mint-settlement-2016mar17-story.html
Is the 1933 DE the last US circulation gold coin?
From a date perspective, is this the first US silver dollar vs the last US circulation gold coin?
Yes and Yes. But the real argument is the very first struck under specimen-like conditions 1794 vs. the very last or very first 1933 DE struck/specimen 1933 DE. The former potentially exists in the Carter 1794. PCGS determined it was a specimen coin...probably after consulting with other experts. Their opinion, not mine or Bill Jones' or Jaguar's. The 3 possibilities of the latter just do not exist. Having the very last struck 1933 DE in specimen format and preserved as such...would be quite a coin. Sadly, it doesn't exist as the production run of 1933 Saints were just for commerce....not for collectors or posterity.
There are "specimen" high reliefs for the first year of Saint Gaudens' issue 1907...UHR proofs of which about 2 dozen were minted....special coins worth far more than regular high reliefs. Worth up to $2-$3 MILL each. To me, much more important than a 1933 Saint where 445K were originally minted....and apparently too many 1933 DE's found their way out of the mint. Imagine if a bag of those (or even 27-d) found their way over to Europe and are still waiting to be discovered?
I'd take the first dollar, not the last bastion of hope.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"Just for commerce" is an interesting statement as some think those are the most interesting coins, vs. special issues for collectors/posterity.
The good thing about collecting is that people can have all types of interests.
Imagine if a receipt was found in the SDB that had the Langbord coins?
To all interested in the 1933 Saint, I highly recommend reading this great book ("Illegal Tender"). It tells the amazing story of this coin by David Tripp, who served as government's expert witness on this subject. It's up to you to decide if you believe the facts he sets forth, but they are compelling and well researched. link
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I'm not sure how much trust I put in David Tripp's book. In court, he referred to an "orphan document".
When he was cross-examined, he admitted that he used that term to refer to a document that didn't
support his conclusion.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
"History is written by the victors." - Winston Churchill -
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@RogerB was also an expert witness, but for the Langbords. Might be interesting if Tripp got an account here to discuss.
I resent anyone putting forth a work of fiction as factual
I don't like the New York Times either.
Great thread with some interesting concepts. Personally, if it were a voting issue, I would vote for the 1794 SP66+ coin.... Further, I believe other '33 DE's exist in private hands. I have spoken with dealers who have seen them. Also, '64D Peace dollars... they are out there. None, however, can compare with the 1794 in rarity or history. Cheers, RickO
I put way more stock in Roger Burdette's account. Tripp, not so much. Too much trying to connect the dots. Reads like a fantasy novel
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Not going to happen. I believe Roger can't discuss it further anyways so it would be one way.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Litigation is over - why not?
I remember Roger stating he couldn'discuss it further awhile back . Maybe it's now wouldn't. Maybe I'm wrong. It would be great if he did
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Would be great for Roger to write his own book on this. He's already done the research!
Until have permission from the Langboard attorney, I cannot discuss anything about the case. Even when that occurs, it might not be productive to comment. I plan no book on the subject.
Don't say it.
The Switt family found some more of them.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Sure, how many would you like to buy? Please send cash or money order to V. Putin, c/o The White House, Washington D.C.
One can travel to Shanghai and buy both.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
What if the goal isn't to own an illegal coin but a legal one?
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1933 Double Eagle that is legal to own
Also, if some collectors are okay to own an illegal coin, how can they be sure they don't own counterfeits? With many counterfeits like the Gerow Paul Franklin Hoard and Micro-O Morgans, it takes a lot of scrutiny to discover counterfeits. If the black market of rare coins mentioned exists, I'd be skeptical of the coins traded and wouldn't be surprised if it has counterfeits.
I'm a bit surprised by the passion behind which one "should" be more expensive. At a certain level, collectibles are driven be collector interest so it depends on which one happens to have one or two collectors that want to pay more for it at a time a seller is willing to sell. For rare coins, prices of coins can change significantly if just one collector enters or exists the market for a coin.
A poll showing personal opinion might have been more fitting
What if the supposed "legal" coin to own is not really the ex-Farouk coin, and therefore is technically not even legal to own? Can legality be rescinded? Anyone ever seen a high grade and decent looking 1933 $20 counterfeit that could pass by a 5th grader YN? It would have to pass a lot of scrutiny with respect to detailed ownership since 1933 to pass muster (ie like the Switt coins). Provenance matters.
Anyone contemplating purchasing a potentially legit 1933 $20 probably has a top notch authenticator/grader/dealer working for them. Who wouldn't? I'm sure none of them want their names plastered about. When the supposed ex-Farouk coin was brought back into the US for potential sale....who "authenticated" that coin for the potential players? Let's be clear on this. According to the US Govt from 1933-2001, ALL 1933 $20 Saints were illegal to own. So let's not get too righteous on the one coin supposedly "being legal" for the past 16 years. When you have 12 others being "not legal" that poses a bigger problem.
The goal is generally to own a 1933 DE....for those who desire to. I doubt the people that own a 1964-D Peace Dollar could care less that the coin is "illegal" to own per the USGovt. If it had been passed down to me in my family, I know I wouldn't be ashamed about it. And who can say the coin wasn't obtained legally right from the Denver mint in 1964...just like some 1933 DE's made it out of the Philly mint in 1933....included one or some owned by the US Treasury Secretary....the boss of the US Mint. Just because US Govt has an "opinion" (and the biggest stick and unlimited lawyers working for printed fiat), doesn't mean they are 100% right. How many rare USMint patterns, trials, restrikes, 1 offs, and other so-called rarities made in the 1834-1913 era come with certificates of authenticity/legality from the US Mint/Secret Service?
I'd challenge anyone to show me a 2nd 1794 FH $ Silver Gem SPECIMEN. 223 years and no joy.
I think both of those are good challenges.
Any bets on which one will happen first?
I do recall discussions around around the time the 1933 DE was to be sold, that the coin itself did not match up to early photos of the Farouk specimen. I am not aware of any documented un-broken chain of physical custody that proves the coin that was sold was actually the Farouk specimen.
With the two dozen (or more) 1933 DE's that were out there in the 1934-1954 era, it's almost logical that the one specimen that was actually auctioned as the KFC coin....is NOT the Farouk coin.
That's very interesting. Are any photos available to verify, of either the early Farouk specimen photos or of the Fenton specimen?
If a 1933 DE was offered for sale today, could it be authenticated as either the Farouk or Fenton specimens?
The Fenton specimen was the one that was monetized and auctioned off. We know this to be true, as the coin itself was seized while it was in Fenton's possession. While the auction was just a single-lot auction, there was a full catalog prepared for the sale, with pictures of the coin.
The Farouk specimen was to be auctioned by Sotheby's in the early 1950's, along with other coins from King Farouk. I do not have a copy of that auction catalog handy, but the piece was described in the catalog, and I believe the catalog would have included a photograph of the coin.
Farouk coin photos of poor quality. I am bowing out of this discussion as several of the participants are beyond further discourse.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I understand your position that there exists over a hundred specimens of silver dollars minted in 1794, and I agree with that. However, the particular Specimen being discussed is unique in its method of manufacture. I presume you recognize the difference between circulation-strike coins and coins made intentionally for collectors in "proof" formats. That is the comparison here. There are over one hundred 1794 dollars that were minted as circulation-strike coins, and one specimen that was struck by Special methods, and coin collectors distinguish between the two.
For example, the 1909 VDB Lincoln cent is a very popular and notable coin. PCGSCoinFacts states that 27,995,000 of those were struck in 1909. Of those PCGS has graded 10,900 as being MS65 or higher. In the grade of PCGS-MS66RD, the CoinFacts estimated value is $350.
Now, let's look that the Proof version of the 1909 VDB cent. PCGSCoinFacts states that 1,194 of those were struck in 1909. Of those PCGS has graded 65 as being PR65 or higher. In the grade of PCGS-PR66RD, the CoinFacts estimated value is $70,000! That 200 times the value of a beautiful MS66RD circulation strike piece!
The method of manufacture DOES have significance!
The Pogue specimen of the 1794 Dollar, graded MS66 sold at auction for essentially $5 million. Does that mean the SP66 1794 dollar is worth 200 times as much? (That would make the SP66 worth $1 Billion!!) Obviously not, but clearly, the unique Specimen strike status of the particular 1794 under discussion here does matter!
The US Government could make any of those dozen legal to own on a whim...but it cannot go back and strike another specimen 1794$1
The Chinese Govt is working hard on coming up with the necessary 1794 dies.
The US Govt could also be sitting on the supposedly "melted" 9 or so 1933 DE's they confiscated in the 1930's to 1950's. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Did the Smithsonian's 2 supposedly come from those 9?
Here's a Chinese 1794 Dollar...all slabbed up by PCGS (supposedly):
For some reason, it just doesn't look like the PCGS TrueView
:
For some reason, scanning the holdered coin comes up with an invalid certificate number.
There we have it....the 2nd silver specimen known....even if just an XF45 out of China. Silver plug as well?
No. I've seen the accession record in Smithsonian. Their two pieces came over in 1934, if memory serves.
auction both at the same time.
what did I win?
This is the bookkeeping entry for March 10, 1933 transferring 1932 coins to Smithsonian. The 1934 transfer entry is similar, but was in October (I think ....don't have the file with me right now.)
