This is how banks ordered coins from the Treasury a century ago.

RogerB · July 17, 2017 8:28AM

Typical order for coins, 1911.

The handwritten notations show how Treasury was going to fulfill the order.

oih82w8 · July 17, 2017 8:30AM

Kinda busy with all of the additional remarks scribbled on it...but that was the way it was done. Pretty neat piece of history!

RogerB · July 17, 2017 8:37AM

The note "withdrawn" under "From Denver Mint" means that the coins were taken out of Denver's inventory for shipment.

"C/D" means "certificate of deposit" which was the Treasury term for certifying that the necessary funds has been deposited in the U.S. Treasury.

Meltdown · July 17, 2017 8:39AM

That is cool. Where'd you find it?

cmerlo1 · July 17, 2017 8:41AM

Very cool. Thanks for posting it!

TommyType · July 17, 2017 8:41AM

Seems terribly inefficient, with all of the pleasantries and fluff of a proper business letter. I'm sure a form came next....maybe a phone call after that....and a web based order today....

Interesting that the majority of the order was for GOLD. I assume it was mainly for the required reserves for the bank, and since the minor coinage generally circulated fairly well, there wasn't a need to replenish it with a larger order. Just a little here and there...

logger7 · July 17, 2017 8:52AM

I'm just curious what level of accountability, cross-checking, and rigorous anti-fraud actions there were in the mint to bank transfers? Did mint or bank employees try to steal incoming or outgoing real money? Were the Wells Fargo deliveries always successful? Several decades later mobsters were often successful in their interdiction of the loot.

AMRC · July 17, 2017 8:55AM

Very cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.

ms70 · July 17, 2017 8:56AM

That's pretty cool!

CaptHenway · July 17, 2017 9:25AM

I wonder what the "Suggestion" was, and why the quarters and halves had to come from Denver.

Also, this implies that the bank was getting all new coins. How did used coins get recirculated?

asheland · July 17, 2017 9:52AM

I like that!

ricko · July 17, 2017 9:58AM

Interesting document.... Papers such as this item serve to bring history alive - and to make us think about how far things have progressed (?) since then..... Cheers, RickO

jwitten · July 17, 2017 10:24AM

Too bad the gold didn't come from Denver. $500 worth of 1911-D $2 1/2???? Whoo hoo!

RogerB · July 17, 2017 12:54PM

Meltdown: “That is cool. Where'd you find it?”
A: NARA, RG50 Treasurer of the U.S.; details are at the top left of the document page. There is a large file of CDs and related material in Philadelphia NARA, RG104.

TommyType: “Seems terribly inefficient, with all of the pleasantries and fluff of a proper business letter. I'm sure a form came next....maybe a phone call after that....and a web based order today....”
“Interesting that the majority of the order was for GOLD. I assume it was mainly for the required reserves for the bank, and since the minor coinage generally circulated fairly well, there wasn't a need to replenish it with a larger order. Just a little here and there...”

A: Order forms did not appear until about 25 years later under the Federal Reserve System. Banks could place telephone orders, but little was done until the money arrived along with a written order, and the CD was issued. A copy of the CD with the bank’s order hand copied on the back was sent to the mint(s) issuing the coins. This became the mint’s debit so that the Treasury books balanced.
The gold was for distribution to customers, not reserves. They were handled internally to the bank and between the bank and the Treasury Comptroller and Auditor offices.

logger7: “I'm just curious what level of accountability, cross-checking, and rigorous anti-fraud actions there were in the mint to bank transfers?”

A: Everything was checked by two or more employees at each step of the process. When a shipment was lost or misdirected, Treasury opened an investigation. Everything was normally shipped insured Parcel Post.

CaptHenway : “I wonder what the "Suggestion" was, and why the quarters and halves had to come from Denver. Also, this implies that the bank was getting all new coins. How did used coins get recirculated?”

A: Yes, the bank requested new 1911 coins. If they had not specified, Treasury would have shipped random-date coins of full legal weight. Denver quarters and halves were requested, so that's what was shipped. Not that the bank paid for shipping.
Most suggestions concerned the method of payment acceptable to Treasury. It was common to write first to determine payment, shipping cost, etc., then place a written order.

To Add: Every party was obliged to check the coins for underweight, damaged or false pieces, before delivery and upon receipt. Treasury was very tight about this and that made banks especially reluctant to accept any coins from depositors that might fail Treasury’s tests. Treasury always charged back for deficient deposits.

ECHOES · July 17, 2017 1:35PM

Really cool piece of history, thanks for sharing.

golden · July 17, 2017 2:19PM

Wow!

mustangmanbob · July 17, 2017 3:34PM

I noticed they ordered "Pennies"

I guess the US Bank did not have any Cents on hand.

jtlee321 · July 17, 2017 3:55PM

You provide such fascinating glimpses into our past that most of us have not even pondered. I appreciate your hard work in digging up these old documents. Thank you.

CaptHenway · July 17, 2017 4:01PM

I don't think that Denver coins were "requested" so much as that was what was available. I suspect that they had inquired about getting the various amounts of the various denominations, and were told that at the moment the only new quarters and halves available were from Denver. The Treasury would have warned them about this because the shipping charges from Denver would have been higher than from Philadelphia. Knowing this was the case they said "Fine. We'll take the Denver quarters and halves."

RogerB · July 17, 2017 4:31PM

That's probably correct. It logically explains why the specific request for Denver coins when the bank had no means of knowing what coins were available at which mint. Thanks for the clarification.

RogerB · July 17, 2017 4:34PM

RE: "You provide such fascinating glimpses into our past that most of us have not even pondered. I appreciate your hard work in digging up these old documents. Thank you."

You're welcome. It's good to hear that this kind of information is interesting, and that collectors appreciate the work required to find it. Much of this kind of thing is discovered by chance while looking for something else. I usually copy anything that seems of potential utility or interest. This letter is part of the research into production, restriking and sale of early patterns and proofs.

Analyst · July 17, 2017 4:44PM

Roger: Yes, the bank requested new 1911 coins. If they had not specified, Treasury would have shipped random-date coins of full legal weight. Denver quarters and halves were requested, so that's what was shipped. Not that the bank paid for shipping.
Most suggestions concerned the method of payment acceptable to Treasury. It was common to write first to determine payment, shipping cost, etc., then place a written order.

I am puzzled by the Denver Mint aspect. Why would a Bank in Rhode Island agree to pay shipping expenses from Denver, if they did? Could new 1911-D quarters and halves have then been 'on hand' at U.S. Treasury premises in Washington, Philadelphia or New York? If so, why would they be? It would have been logical for Denver Mint coins to be shipped to locations in the Midwest and Southwest?

Why did this bank in Rhode Island not just ask for quarters and halves from Philadelphia? Is there a good chance that officials at this bank had been told in the mentioned "suggestion" that 1911 Philadelphia Mint quarters and halves were unavailable at the moment?

If it is true that some of the bank's customers requested 1911 Denver Mint quarters and halves, it is unlikely that 2,000 of each were needed to fulfill requests from this bank's customers. A few collectors may have each demanded a handful.

Did orders originating on the East Coast often involve requests by banks for D or S-Mint coins?

According to the 2017 North American Coins & Prices (Krause) guide, 3,720,543 1911 quarters were minted in Philly and 933,600 in Denver.

CaptHenway · July 17, 2017 5:06PM

@Analyst...see my comments above.

I wonder was 1911 some sort of anniversary year for the bank that they wanted new 1911 coins? If so and the 1911-P quarters and halves were not struck yet, then the bank might have been willing to stand the freight from Denver.

CaptHenway · July 17, 2017 5:08PM

July 30, 1911 was the bank's 10 year anniversary.

http://www.ricurrency.com/bank-name/united-national-bank-providence/

CaptHenway · July 17, 2017 5:16PM

So, maybe this was not how banks ordered coins from the Treasury back then, but a special order for a special occasion.

BillDugan1959 · July 17, 2017 5:22PM

My eyes didn't focus properly.

Analyst · July 17, 2017 5:30PM

CaptHenway : I wonder was 1911 some sort of anniversary year for the bank that they wanted new 1911 coins? ... July 30, 1911 was the bank's 10 year anniversary.

Very clever, Captain, nevertheless, Roger did refer to this as a "Typical order for coins ..." in the original post. I was fishing for clues regarding the level of interest among mint-customers in the Branch Mints, for non-logistical reasons. Would it really be likely that two thousand 1911 Philly quarters and two thousand 1911 Philly halves would be unavailable circa April 1? I really have no idea.

I already mentioned that 3,720,543 1911 quarters were minted in Philly and 933,600 in Denver. I add now that 988,000 were struck in SF. Again according to the 2017 North American Coins & Prices (Krause) guide, mintages for 1911 halves were 1,506,453 in Philadelphia, 695,080 in Denver, and 1,272,000 in San Francisco. So, it would be curious if the Denver Mint pieces were the only "new" halves available on April 1, 1911, when the "suggestion" was made.

Long-distance telephone calls were then expensive. How did the Treasury Department in Washington know how many quarters were available in Denver, if the said D-Mint quarters were then physically located in Denver? Did officials in Washington call Philadelphia and Denver when they received a preliminary request for coins from a bank in Rhode Island?

Wabbit2313 · July 17, 2017 6:00PM

I would like to have those bags of uncirculated 1911-D quarters and halves right now!

RogerB · July 17, 2017 6:19PM

Banks normally ordered new coins - customers wanted bright, new pieces and the cost in shipping was the same for the bank. This was an overhead expense for banks, but remember than much commerce was local, so coins cycled in and out of banks. This order is a little larger than others, but there are thousands of similar orders in the archives.

The christmas-new year season was a time of heavy coin orders. Also, there are instances where banks ordered new coins from distant mints because closer mints were out and customers demanded new bright coins. I recall one letter from a NY City banks where they ordered New Orleans silver even though shipping was expensive - their customers expected new coins and the bank wanted to oblige.

Telegrams were commonly used. Long distance telephone was only for emergencies and executives. 1911 was before full transcontinental phone service.

You must read this and other documents within the context of the economic and infrastructure of the time - not conflate into today or our individual modern experiences.