Oh no...another CAC thread
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have seen a few threads which suggest, inquire, question, etc. whether CAC should have their own slabbing and grading service. To me this misses the point of one reason I do value CAC---it is another set of eyes on the coin. Right now a buyer who wants to purchase a PCGS CAC coin has the knowledge that PCGS has looked at it and graded it, CAC has reviewed it and approved it as solid or better for the grade and of course you--the buyer---looks at it. The "extra set of eyes" in my mind has a value (especially when it is JA) that would not necessarily be the same if CAC had its own third party grading company.
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So just for the sake of discussion, how about an ngc coin coin that crossed to pcgs but didn't cac? Two out of three, but you don't know that unless you know the grading history.
If you know a coin crossed, I do agree that there is value to that when considering a coin.
I believe I mentioned this in another thread... If CAC creates a slabbing service, then that opens the door for another CAC-like affirmation service.... Capitalism at work...more jobs, economy grows...
Cheers, RickO
The only potential issue with both services agreeing with the grade is that neither one of them is avoiding "C" level coins. Hence they could both assign a coin a grade of 65(C) while CAC doesn't sticker it. CAC was also founded on the notion of not buckling to gradeflation. If they ultimately do change their own standards from what they set back in 2007-2009, that's a game changer imo.
They don't need a slabbing service....they need a coin forum so that PCGS can be free of all the CAC threads,
If a newly graded 67 used to be a 66 before gradeflation then it can't possibly bean. No coin graded in the last few years can ever bean going forward since they are all gradeflated . Only old holders should bean and actually , since the only reason old holders are desired is because of gradeflation and the possibilty of an upgrade those should not bean either.
Only true mistakes should bean by that logic and those should be returned to the TPG because they are obviously mistakes , so send them in for reconsideration and peel the stickers off.
I've heard and read something like this quite a few times:
Each of the major TPGS over grades, under grades, and gets the grade correct.
IMO, there is no problem with having that grade reviewed. Think about that. Each slab that gets out of the original submitter's hand is reviewed by everyone who sees it. Those who know what they are doing have the best opinion of the grade on the label. I believe what happens next is that under graded coins eventually get corrected. Liner's may be resubmitted a few times.
Make no mistake, I can find absolute JUNK slabbed by each of the major services! They make mistakes. If these errors were made on purpose to any degree, it would hurt reputations and spawn opinions that some submitters are always given better grades.
Anyway, there has always been CAC forces in the market. Decades ago at a coin show, I suggested that the owner of one TPGS use gold labels for special coins that were at the top of their grade. He explained that approach would make the other coins in the mid and low end of the grade less appealing. Good point.
That is EXACTLY what CAC has done! There is a huge difference between reviewing a coin's grade and agreeing it is correct or dropping the entire low end of correctly graded coins for the commercial interests of a company that makes a market in the coins they sticker!!
That is why the ANA's grading service was not connected to the coin business. Unfortunately, their grading standards were not the same as the industry and that brings us back to today.
But what if we want to talk behind their back?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I sure posted but it's nothing I haven't said to the man on the phone. I've tried twice to get all the major services included in the CAC program. There are decent coins in ANACS, SEGS and ICG holders and it's more money for John's company. Perhaps when all the NGC and PCGS coins that are A &B are stickered the other services will be included.
I've had coins in NGC holders that were schuffy that crossed to PCGS then stickered in their new holders.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
JA gave an interview in Maurice Rosen's newsletter a few years ago in which he stated he did a trial of ANACS and ICG and the sticker rate was so low with those services that it was a waste of time for CAC.
CAC does have an official forum. At least they did the last time I checked. There was basically little to no activity. Odd, since so much of what goes on around here is about CAC.
Some days I wake up wondering if the secret to inner peace is simply to stop chasing my own tail.
No they don't. Ankur's forum was unofficial, but CAC did respond to posts/questions posed in the earlier days. It has pretty much died off activity wise (and has less activity than the NGC forums).
If CAC started its own grading service, then PCGS and NGC could introduce their own stickers, and we could have three stickers. The only liquid coins would have the perfect "trifecta" or at least 2 or the 3 approvals (of CAC, PCGS, and NGC).
Would that GRADE was the main and only consideration in this morass.
Now if a graded coin failed to bean, then it could be inferred that the grade is incorrect and the TPG could face a class action suit for the "guarantee."
Now this will never happen, but it... might.... get the TPGs aware that CAC is going to impact their business substantallly.
Of course there's the A,B.C folderol that says there are TWELVE separate and distinct gradations of Very Fine.
Idiotic.
But, why beat the horse? Nobody is going to realize the eventual harm until it is far too late to force a grade to be a grade or NOT that grade.
Boy, my soapbox is wearing out.
Official or unofficial, you seem to be familiar with that forum. So maybe you can help with a question that I have about it.....Why do you think it was so unsuccessful? In other words, why does CAC get so much attention here, but not on a "CAC" forum? Also, there are a few current members here who did post on that forum. Maybe some of them could chime-in. Thoughts, anyone?
I have read in this forum that a PCGS CAC coin sells for more than a NGC CAC coin. How does this make sense? CAC is using the same standards to state the Coin is graded correctly or under graded, correct?
A lot of people think life would be peaceful if they stopped chasing tail , they are probably right but still.....
There was a time when uttering "CAC" on the forum was cause for immediate thread deletion and a warning of being banned. (I long for those days...
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Most of what was posted there was duped here and vice versa. Saves the trouble of perusing 2 boards.
Agreed (no winky here)
Times may have changed, back then he MAY have had shares in the top two. Also, he could run a trial. I don't know (and don't care) if CAC charges a few bucks for coins that don't sticker. If they don't charge, they should even if just for the second and third tier services. Right now they may be swamped with business. That will not always be the case. Anyway, I'm a very greedy person. I would have my people working weekends and longer hours to keep pace with me. It should be obvious that the more coins in and out at speeds approaching 1-2 day service would finance a car collection for all hands. Putting a sticker on a slab is mostly a clerical operation. What a great idea.
@cameonut2011 said: "No they don't. Ankur's forum was unofficial, but CAC did respond to posts/questions posed in the earlier days. It has pretty much died off activity wise (and has less activity than the NGC forums)."
Want to write about NO ACTIVITY. The NGC forum seems dead and buried in spite of some very knowledgeable folks posting.
@bronco2078 said: "A lot of people think life would be peaceful if they stopped chasing tail, they are probably right but still....."
Yeah, and life it is definitely not peaceful when you catch some!
The spellcheck on my devise has gone haywire. I'll do my best. Maybe this will be fun. Anyway, if the activity ATS is the same or less than Ankur's CAC forum, then they're finished, done, kaput, ATS. I'm stopping now. Annie, NYC. Too bad if it's true. Competition is good. At least that's what they taught me in school. Alligators. Also, I liked Annie's CAC forum. But it WAS very, very, sparkly attorneys.
I know some posters saw it as merely another forum which was unnecessary since other forums existed with more traffic (e.g. here, Coin Talk, etc.). Some did not like that you were required to join to see the posts. (Mark Feld posted publicly he wouldn't post for that reason.). I'm guessing some left because of the predominant CAC only mentality of the few that regularly posted. I personally didn't post much because of the low level of traffic.
There hasn't been a post there in weeks. It is totally dead. The NGC Forums seem like a vibrant community with tons of activity compared to there. I suspect Ankur will ultimately pull the plug which is a shame. There were even a couple of phone meetings/conferences where John Albanese would chat and answer questions. It truly shows that John really cares about the hobby and collectors. I have a lot of respect for John. CAC is a business, but John has gone out of his way to help collectors.
I agree with everything you say. I admire Ankur for the effort he put into it. But, I just gave up because the site was so dead. Nothing ventured nothing gained. It truly is a shame.