The Farouk 1933 Saint or the Cardinal 1794 Dollar......which would bring the highest bid...
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
If they were both auctioned tomorrow?
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Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Interesting question.
I don't know but anxiously await opinions from those with better knowledge of the current market for the greatest rarities.
I know that there's this guy in Utah and one or two others but not much more than that.
Is it more about the buyers or the rarities themselves? Both are major factors in answering this question.
I would also add in the question of the Switt Saints. That is settled....or its it?
I think that the 1933 St. Gaudens $20 gold would bring more money because it is the only example that is legal to own that is in private hands. Plus the powers at be have decided that the Cardinal 1794 is not the finest known, at least according the auction results.
The last I heard it was still going on appeal
BHNC #203
Plus the powers at be have decided that the Cardinal 1794 is not the finest known, at least according the auction results.
Try as I might I still can't figure out:
a) what you are trying to say about auction results
and
b) why that would even matter when it's the only specimen and can be reasonably presumed to be the first coin struck
It is hard to un see Israel's pocketful of Saints. Hell, they could become party favors at a mar-a-lago soiree.
Both coins have great history, but my guess is that the Cardinal's 1794 dollar would go for more.
If I were in that tax bracket, I'd be concerned that there are other 1933 Saints yet to come to light. I also recall there being some doubt that the existing 1933 Saint is actually the Farouk coin although it is advertised as such.
It might help to get the POTUS tweet about it along with private property and time the Supreme Court appeal after the next retirement / confirmation.
It's over. The Surpreme Court refused to hear the case. The Government has taken those double eagles, and no one can do anything about it, short of an Act of Congress and a presidential signature, which not going to happen.
Too bad. I think if POTUS got involved in the private property issue with a new makeup of the court, it could have gone the other direction.
Given this, it seems there is only one legal to own specimen unless other historical, authorizing paperwork appears. The best paperwork for these from a collector perspective may be a Mint cashier's receipt like the ones for the 1933 eagles which would make all double eagles legal to own.
The 1794 as I believe it is the only one of the two that could ever be sold.
I would agree with this point of view. Both pieces are part of larger mintages with claimed attributes and/or pedigrees that render them unique. The 1933 Double Eagle carries the benefit of being the only coin of its date that is legal to own, thus making it the only means of completing a very popular series by date. Alternatively, it was in all likelihood not purchased as a date set component, as while the purchaser was not disclosed, his representative claimed that was interested in this coin and no others, which would imply that the unique story associated with the piece (the Farouk connection) was a driving factor behind the price. But the connection has been demonstrated to be somewhat tenuous, marked by a long period for which it was unaccounted, while others were believed to be hidden away. Additionally, the value as a date coin is further called into question, as other commenters have mentioned, by the existence of the Israel Switt hoard (its legal status notwithstanding) and other rumored examples that remain in the woodwork, as well as the pair of examples owned by the Smithsonian. It may be the only one you can buy, but its pedigree is suspect and it is certainly not unique.
The Cardinal 1794 is another beast entirely. Its superb condition and strike would render it tremendously valuable, but what places it in another league is the technical evidence supporting its position as a very likely candidate for the first dollar ever struck by the Mint, given its apparently exact die state match to the corresponding copper pattern for the issue. It really transcends conventional numismatics (as does the 1933 $20), but I believe that the Cardinal specimen is far more deserving of the title of a "national treasure" given its historical importance. If the two coins mentioned were offerred side by side and the money was being spent by those with an appreciation for the history of each, I believe the Cardinal 1794 Dollar would bring more.
Cardinal still has a 1794?
The 1794 dollar IMO would sell for more, as no one knows whether or not the other 1933 Saints will ever be sold.
But the 1849 double eagle would sell for way more than either of these two coins IMO.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
1794 > 1933 in all ways except math.
I think a real comparison would be the Cardinal 1794, or J-1776, the St. Gaudens $20 Pattern. Many more factors to consider. Probably the two greatest treasures of U.S. numismatics in my book.
No way in hëll those 33 leave gub'mint hands, and that's not considering the "sole" agreement on the one.
The Langbord case showed the gub'mint will go to great lengths to deal with what they say is stolen property. Perhaps you will suggest an Americathon situation?
Do pieces of this caliber trade at any %age of approx. market value ?
IMO, this First Strike thing is out of hand. I think it wonderful to have in hand what may have been the first struck dollar but that is just not enough to counterbalance the fact that the 1933 Twenty is as has been stated the only specimen available & that to me would cover a First or Finest struck rather handily & especially to a non-collector with money...
Well, just Love coins, period.
With 13-14 or more 1933's out there I can't even fathom anyone paying $5 MILL again. Having only one "legal" to own is a non-argument. What if the US Govt had a dozen 1907 $20 Indian patterns (J-1776) and guaranteed none would ever leave the Smithsonian, would the sole specimen in public hands still be worth the same? Hardly. The existence of lots of coins despite who owns them is problematic. Consider the Smithsonian just another competing cabinet or collection. I don't think it would even be close at auction between the 1794 $ SP66 vs. 1933 Saint. Are any of the 1933's presentation pieces? Can any one of them be contemplated as 1st struck out of the 445,500 pieces struck? What if another relative of Izzy has another dozen or two of these? What if Mehl or Kosoff socked some away? Izzy certainly wasn't the only one that put some away.
It's news to me that the "unique" Carter/Cardinal/TDN specimen is not considered the finest known/available specimen. It's also apples vs. oranges when trying to compare a pair of PCGS MS66+ coins to the only SP66. Are any of the 1933's considered SP65/66? This is taking the "+" thing way too far. From an eye appeal standpoint, the SP66 imo easily exceeds the pair of 66+ coins. Interesting, all 3 of the coins are stickered.
David Hall:
As a major player in the coin market for 30 years and founder of PCGS I've seen a lot of really great coins. But in 2003, PCGS graded a coin that made even my heart thump, a spectacular 1794 silver dollar. PCGS gave the coin the special designation of "Specimen" and a grade of SP66.
I believe the coin is the finest known example of the first U.S. silver dollar, and quite possibly the very first piece struck of the denomination. It is a magnificent Gem and a gorgeous historic treasure.
The Government only guaranteed another wouldn't be monetized. That doesn't mean one can't be owned without that silly phrase involved. What happens when someone offers the Smithsonian something that they can't resist in trade for one of theirs? The Government will do what it always does - act in its own self interest...
What happens if the Govt decides one day to sell off some or all of the coins in the Smithsonian? What if they govt changes its mind and decides to sell the ex-Longbord 1933's? It's a black cloud hanging over the 1933 Saint market.
Does Dexter still have an 1804?
None of those sales will ever happen. The government has no need for the money, It will just create more by selling its bonds the the Federal Reserve.
At any rate the proceeds from those sales would be a trickle of money compared to the national debt or the amount of money the government spends in an hour.
Even if the government melted the 10 Langbord coins, it wouldn't change my mind. There are more out there. Owning a unique coin is one thing (1873-cc NA dime for example). Owning a coin that is only unique by technical "monetization" is clearly different.
I finally figured out bjspeak:
Since the auction results were all at 17.5% buyers fee, 5th grade math says the Carter 1794 isn't the finest.
Whew...
Americathon - the Mint/Treaury would take them back from the Smithsonian. The sleazy way they went about sleazing the Langbord's coins says "do or die."
Who's on first?
I figure each would realize $7,000,000 plus or minus. It would be close.
If I had the money to ONLY buy one or the other, the 1794, w/o a doubt.
Which would bring higher in the market?? I have no clue.
1794-no question about it.
Tom
The 1794 $1 would easily sell for more.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
Ok....what do you think the numbers would be?
The 1933 $20s are now just glorified 1927 D's at this point so I'd say $3-5 million. But the Cardinal 1794 is a true wonder coin. I'd say it's a $8-10 million coin in this market.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
Only the very highest end players in the coin market can answer the question because only they know who is actually interested in each coin and who actually has the necessary enthusiasm and, especially, money.
I'll stick with the "Kennedy Looks at Lincoln" cent market.
Not that I would ever be in a position to own either of these, but if I was, I would bid more for the Cardinal 1794. Not even close for me.
The 1933 $20 has appeal as part of a 'black' cabinet, alongside the stuff traded out of the Mint cabinet by nefarious means (Stickney 1804 dollar, 1913 V nickels), and other rumored coins like the 1964 Peace. But it really is a different beast than a 1794 dollar.
Maybe some Russian oligarch is working on a set as a counterpoint to a black-market collection of looted WWII fine art and Iraqi antiquities.
perhaps we should ask hobby lobby then
they only deal in cuneiform
1794 Dollar
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Given the government's irrational fixation with 1933 DEs, I would not be entirely confident about the one coin that is supposedly "legal" to own.
I can hear the DOJ now......"sorry, we monetized the Farouk coin....the one you have is not really the Farouk coin even though we said it was......sorry, our bad, we're not giving it back........"
I don't really care which one might sell for more.
If given the chance to own just one I would take the 1794. It captivated me the time I was able to hold it in the raw and be amazed at its surfaces.
To each their own.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
I'm jealous
One can then argue, why did the Farouk coin sale occur around 15 yrs ago? Why did the govt take a 50% split in the proceeds if they "didn't need the money?" Why spend so much time and effort on 1933 DE's since the late 1930's if they aren't worth the time and effort? How much did they "blow" for us taxpayers in the Langbord litigation costs over the past 15 yrs? Their lawyers, agents and analysts could have been used confiscating money launderer's or drug dealers...probably worth hundreds of $MILLIONs. Yeah, the govt spends about $4 BILL each day to cover operations....but fixating on 1933 DE's seems to have been a priority. Now if these were not 1 ounce gold coins....I think their efforts towards recovery would have been almost nil. But that's a gold thing in play since the March 1933 Presidential Executive Order.
The US Mint gave a treasure trove of hundreds/thousands of US rarities and patterns to William Woodin a little over 100 yrs ago in exchange for the gold half unions. Clearly, there is precedence to do "deals." Someday, they just may decide they want J-1776 back....only for historical perspective of course. I'm not sure why such a coin should have even been transferred to public hands. Hmm...how about a trade for the 10 Langbord Saints and officially declare all 1933 $20's in existence monetized?
I agree with this. The Langbord coins show that the Mint's records were faulty. There may be additional examples that could potentially become legal to own if someone else cuts a deal with the government in the future.
Cuts a deal - dream on
This is why I threw out the "sole legal" point and stuck with rabid pursuit.
No way in hêll.
There was a deal on the Farouk specimen not because it was just a 1933 DE, but because there were government export papers authorizing release. For there to be another deal, I think there would need to be other paperwork, not mere existence of the coins.
And if another 1933 shows up with even better documentation that it's the Farouk coin?