Did Stacks raising their buyer's premium to 20% sneak under the radar?

blu62vette · July 3, 2017 1:20PM

Coin week article stating all auctions will go to 20%.

coinweek.com/auctions-news/stacks-bowers-galleries-standardizes-buyers-premium/

2ndCharter · July 3, 2017 1:33PM

Seems to be - I can't find any mention of it on their website, just the Coin Week article. I know some posters who are going to have a coronary over this development.

CascadeChris · July 3, 2017 1:36PM

https://youtu.be/8lYBVi3ALWA

roadrunner · July 3, 2017 1:39PM

This is "good" news. Now I can finally calculate a buyer's fee in my head again....it's been nearly 15 years since the last time I could do it (1.10 BF) . So rather than dividing your bids by 1.175, now it's 1.20. Consignors have to realize to negotiate down for this additional 2.5%. Hammer +8% (90% net) will become the new normal. Gradeflation is met with bidflation.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 1:44PM

Back in the old days, it used to be 10% each to the seller and buyer and if you were a good sized consigner then your fee got waived. Now it's 20% to the buyer and if you're a good sized consigner then you might get 10%. Kinda the same on the face of it but not really:

Before a coin would hammer for $90k ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $9k and seller would pay $0-9k = auction house earns $9-18k. Now, coin hammers for $82,500 ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $16,500 and seller might receive $0-8,250 = auction house earns $8,250-16,500.

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 3, 2017 1:44PM

Standardizing beats bastardizing. I trust them more than Ebay or PayPal. That's a coin fact.

TomB · July 3, 2017 1:52PM

The math would be so much easier for most folks if they would simply get it over with and raise the BP to 100%. Therefore, each buyer would know they would outlay twice their winning bid and the auction companies could pay the sellers along the lines of "one for you, one for me, two for you, two for me...".

BillJones · July 3, 2017 2:00PM

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

Regardless of how much money they are making, this is one more reason to put this hobby behind me. I know, I know. Everybody is out there with their little calculators breaking back their bids so it won't make any difference ... except what is true in theory does not match reality which makes the theory bogus. I've read all of the BS about this and you theories don't hold water. You are wrong!

I am sure that Heritage will follow suit. What ever happened to the anti-trust laws?

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 2:08PM

Forget the calculations. It's certainly easier to mentally figure 20% than 17.5%.

BillJones · July 3, 2017 2:11PM

The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 2:13PM

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

Gazes · July 3, 2017 2:14PM

I would think heritage would stick at 17.5% and tells sellers they will make more with heritage than stacks

VanHalen · July 3, 2017 2:14PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Back in the old days, it used to be 10% each to the seller and buyer and if you were a good sized consigner then your fee got waived. Now it's 20% to the buyer and if you're a good sized consigner then you might get 10%. Kinda the same on the face of it but not really:

Before a coin would hammer for $90k ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $9k and seller would pay $0-9k = auction house earns $9-18k. Now, coin hammers for $82,500 ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $16,500 and seller might receive $0-8,250 = auction house earns $8,250-16,500.

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

TDN: In the first part of your example you state the auction house earns (potentially) $9k-$18k which, at $18k includes 100% of both the buyer's and seller's fees (which seems plausible for most scenarios). In the second part of your example the buyer's fee is $16.5k and the seller's fee is $8.25K = auction house earns $16.5k to $24.75k (including both fees as the first example).

To keep it apples to apples you have to include all the fees in both examples. Consignors negotiate fees and that variable should not be applied when referencing total fees.

Zoins · July 3, 2017 2:15PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Back in the old days, it used to be 10% each to the seller and buyer and if you were a good sized consigner then your fee got waived. Now it's 20% to the buyer and if you're a good sized consigner then you might get 10%. Kinda the same on the face of it but not really:

Before a coin would hammer for $90k ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $9k and seller would pay $0-9k = auction house earns $9-18k. Now, coin hammers for $82,500 ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $16,500 and seller might receive $0-8,250 = auction house earns $8,250-16,500.

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

It's interesting that the seller went from paying $9k to receiving $8.25k, a net $17.25k difference.

It would be great if buyers could go from paying to receiving as well.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 2:16PM

@VanHalen said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Back in the old days, it used to be 10% each to the seller and buyer and if you were a good sized consigner then your fee got waived. Now it's 20% to the buyer and if you're a good sized consigner then you might get 10%. Kinda the same on the face of it but not really:

Before a coin would hammer for $90k ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $9k and seller would pay $0-9k = auction house earns $9-18k. Now, coin hammers for $82,500 ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $16,500 and seller might receive $0-8,250 = auction house earns $8,250-16,500.

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

TDN: In the first part of your example you state the auction house earns (potentially) $9k-$18k which, at $18k includes 100% of both the buyer's and seller's fees (which seems plausible for most scenarios). In the second part of your example the buyer's fee is $16.5k and the seller's fee is $8.25K = auction house earns $16.5k to $24.75k (including both fees as the first example).

To keep it apples to apples you have to include all the fees in both examples. Consignors negotiate fees and that variable should not be applied when referencing total fees.

In my second scenario the auction house is collecting nothing from, or actually paying the seller.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 2:19PM

@Zoins said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Back in the old days, it used to be 10% each to the seller and buyer and if you were a good sized consigner then your fee got waived. Now it's 20% to the buyer and if you're a good sized consigner then you might get 10%. Kinda the same on the face of it but not really:

Before a coin would hammer for $90k ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $9k and seller would pay $0-9k = auction house earns $9-18k. Now, coin hammers for $82,500 ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $16,500 and seller might receive $0-8,250 = auction house earns $8,250-16,500.

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

It's interesting that the seller went from paying $9k to receiving $8.25k, a net $17.25k difference.

It would be great if buyers could go from paying to receiving as well.

Hammer on their coin dropped from $90k to $82,500 tho.

You are also taking opposite end points of a range to make a point.... I think faulty math.

Nic · July 3, 2017 2:20PM

If buyers premiums go to 20%, then I want 114% for consignments.

Zoins · July 3, 2017 2:22PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@Zoins said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Back in the old days, it used to be 10% each to the seller and buyer and if you were a good sized consigner then your fee got waived. Now it's 20% to the buyer and if you're a good sized consigner then you might get 10%. Kinda the same on the face of it but not really:

Before a coin would hammer for $90k ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $9k and seller would pay $0-9k = auction house earns $9-18k. Now, coin hammers for $82,500 ($99k price realized). Buyer would pay $16,500 and seller might receive $0-8,250 = auction house earns $8,250-16,500.

In reality, the auction company is now making less now than it used to make.

It's interesting that the seller went from paying $9k to receiving $8.25k, a net $17.25k difference.

It would be great if buyers could go from paying to receiving as well.

Hammer on their coin dropped from $90k to $82,500 tho.

This doesn't affect the amount the buyer pays since the $7.5k drop in hammer is offset by the $7.5k increase in buyer's fee, so the buyer is paying the same total amount, just with more in fees. The loss to the house is coming from their payouts to the sellers which means they are paying more for things to sell.

You are also taking opposite end points of a range to make a point.... I think faulty math.

I see that now, however, my point still holds. If the buyer is paying the same and the house is making less, that money needs to go somewhere. It is going to the seller. Since the seller is gaining, it would also be nice if the buyer could gain as well.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 2:22PM

@Nic said:
If buyers premiums go to 20%, then I want 114% for consignments.

And you would probably get that.....for a seven figure consignment

BillJones · July 3, 2017 2:35PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

No, it's not silly when you can buy the same items from other political auction houses for less money, often FAR LESS money.

DIMEMAN · July 3, 2017 2:57PM

I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

BryceM · July 3, 2017 3:29PM

The chance that I'll consign anything with SB or HA is approaching zero. Unless I went "all in" I'll never consign enough to negotiate a reasonable deal.

As it becomes more and more difficult to liquidate coins with favorable terms, my desire to buy diminishes.

Honestly, if HA made a counter move back to 15% it might drive SB completely out of the game.

Justacommeman · July 3, 2017 3:31PM

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

golden · July 3, 2017 3:42PM

If Heritage is smart they should go to 15%.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 3:42PM

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

No, it's not silly when you can buy the same items from other political auction houses for less money, often FAR LESS money.

I suspect that has more to do with their prowess compared to heritage than their buyers fee

djm · July 3, 2017 3:43PM

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Yes and No, If more retail buyers stay away from the auctions the hammer price would be less. In theory the dealer could sell you the coin for less even paying the 17.5 or 20.

Justacommeman · July 3, 2017 3:49PM

@djm said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Yes and No, If more retail buyers stay away from the auctions the hammer price would be less. In theory the dealer could sell you the coin for less even paying the 17.5 or 20.

If that were to happen dealers in theory would need more coins for inventory and thus bid accordingly up to pretty much market levels in my opinion

mark

BillJones · July 3, 2017 3:50PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

No, it's not silly when you can buy the same items from other political auction houses for less money, often FAR LESS money.

I suspect that has more to do with their prowess compared to heritage than their buyers fee

But that is not true. The two leading political items auction houses have a much better image with collectors than Heritage. I would never consider consigning my political collection with Heritage. For the coin collection Heritage has the inside track with me.

DIMEMAN · July 3, 2017 4:01PM

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Dealers are not going to pay market value plus 17.5 or 20.

Coin Finder · July 3, 2017 4:02PM

To much money in my opinion. What happens in time when it is 30%? I think people will just stop bidding exception being ultra rare coins in high grade...

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 4:03PM

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

No, it's not silly when you can buy the same items from other political auction houses for less money, often FAR LESS money.

I suspect that has more to do with their prowess compared to heritage than their buyers fee

But that is not true. The two leading political items auction houses have a much better image with collectors than Heritage. I would never consider consigning my political collection with Heritage. For the coin collection Heritage has the inside track with me.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If heritage brings higher prices, much higher - then why wouldn't you consign with them? Silly

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 4:05PM

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

No, it's not silly when you can buy the same items from other political auction houses for less money, often FAR LESS money.

Then you should consign to heritage

Coinstartled · July 3, 2017 4:07PM

@TomB said:
The math would be so much easier for most folks if they would simply get it over with and raise the BP to 100%. Therefore, each buyer would know they would outlay twice their winning bid and the auction companies could pay the sellers along the lines of "one for you, one for me, two for you, two for me...".

Yup...and include shipping.

Coinstartled · July 3, 2017 4:12PM

As the seller covers the fee either way, just dump the buyer fee and tag the seller with the 10 or 17.5 or 20 or 22.5%.

Would make the bidding process easier and that is what generates the revenue.

Have gone a bit dizzy bidding on 15 second long per coin Heritage auctions watching next bid and cut bid and 17.5% fees flying across the screen. I am no newb at it but they could clean things up quite a bit.

BillJones · July 3, 2017 4:12PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
The calculators are not the point. Yes, I won't need one any more. Wonderful ... NOT

The Heritage rate on political items is 25%. That's easy calculate too, except there are other comparies that charge 12% which keeps Heritage from being a viable source for these collectables.

That's silly

No, it's not silly when you can buy the same items from other political auction houses for less money, often FAR LESS money.

I suspect that has more to do with their prowess compared to heritage than their buyers fee

But that is not true. The two leading political items auction houses have a much better image with collectors than Heritage. I would never consider consigning my political collection with Heritage. For the coin collection Heritage has the inside track with me.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If heritage brings higher prices, much higher - then why wouldn't you consign with them? Silly

The 25% buyers' fee makes Heritage not viable for me. I collect political buttons. Heritage treats most of them like second class items unless they are the very expensive varieties. Ditto for the 19th century political tokens. Heritage is more interested in 3D items. The 13% difference in the buyers' fee is significant.

BillJones · July 3, 2017 4:17PM

TDN, I don't understand why you are so committed to insulting and arguing with potential customers. I just don't understand your motives or you business strategy.

And for record, I rarely sell anything these days so consigning political items to Heritage does not enter my mind.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 4:26PM

@BillJones said:
TDN, I don't understand why you are so committed to insulting and arguing with potential customers. I just don't understand your motives or you business strategy.

And for record, I rarely sell anything these days so consigning political items to Heritage does not enter my mind.

Not meaning to insult but I just don't understand the conflict between the statements. If items fetch much more then they're doing something right. If much less, then the 25% shouldn't matter when you're buying.

tradedollarnut · July 3, 2017 4:34PM

I have no business strategy here - I'm here as a collector (with an occasional explanation when issues get raised)

Coinstartled · July 3, 2017 4:37PM

@BillJones said:
TDN, I don't understand why you are so committed to insulting and arguing with potential customers. I just don't understand your motives or you business strategy.

And for

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
TDN, I don't understand why you are so committed to insulting and arguing with potential customers. I just don't understand your motives or you business strategy.

And for record, I rarely sell anything these days so consigning political items to Heritage does not enter my mind.

Not meaning to insult but I just don't understand the conflict between the statements. If items fetch much more then they're doing something right. If much less, then the 25% shouldn't matter when you're buying.

@tradedollarnut said:

@BillJones said:
TDN, I don't understand why you are so committed to insulting and arguing with potential customers. I just don't understand your motives or you business strategy.

And for record, I rarely sell anything these days so consigning political items to Heritage does not enter my mind.

Not meaning to insult but I just don't understand the conflict between the statements. If items fetch much more then they're doing something right. If much less, then the 25% shouldn't matter when you're buying.

Only to the extent that you will likely face a similar fee when you sell. Learned that on a couple air and space auctions. Moon money took on a whole new meaning.

oih82w8 · July 3, 2017 7:04PM

Just incorporate the buyers fee with the bid, which will go down.

Zoins · July 3, 2017 7:08PM

@oih82w8 said:
Just incorporate the buyers fee with the bid, which will go down.

I'm not sure why they just don't do that. Some have suggested this is done to get the people that don't factor in the BP to bid higher.

jwitten · July 3, 2017 7:34PM

I've always hated buyer's premiums. It should be like ebay, and you pay what the winning bid is. Less math involved. Buyer premiums always holds me up and makes me hesitate to bid when I am trying to figure out the actual cost. Why not just have a selling premium, so the coins sells for what it sells for, then they take their cut before giving the seller the remainder.

illini420 · July 3, 2017 7:45PM

When bidding online, most auction houses show the total price including the BP% right next to the bid. No need to do math as the website does it for you in most cases.

Justacommeman · July 3, 2017 8:02PM

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Dealers are not going to pay market value plus 17.5 or 20.

If the coin you bought from a dealer came from an auction you are indeed paying the vig.

mark

Zoins · July 3, 2017 8:12PM

@illini420 said:
When bidding online, most auction houses show the total price including the BP% right next to the bid. No need to do math as the website does it for you in most cases.

I've found that it's still useful to bid the final price during live bidding which can be very spirited.

I agree with @BillJones and @jwitten that bidding what you pay would be better. The resistance is interesting as it seems like such a simple thing.

ms70 · July 3, 2017 8:16PM

No matter how you cut it, 20% is outrageous. Even 15% is outrageous.

DIMEMAN · July 3, 2017 8:17PM

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Dealers are not going to pay market value plus 17.5 or 20.

If the coin you bought from a dealer came from an auction you are indeed paid the vig.

mark

When I buy a coin from a dealer.....I am OK with the price and don't care what he paid.

Justacommeman · July 3, 2017 8:27PM

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Dealers are not going to pay market value plus 17.5 or 20.

If the coin you bought from a dealer came from an auction you are indeed paid the vig.

mark

When I buy a coin from a dealer.....I am OK with the price and don't care what he paid.

So you are ok paying the 17.5 to 20 percent plus the dealers markup BUT you are not ok with only paying the 17.5 to 20 % directly to the auction house. Got it. Carry on.

mark

DIMEMAN · July 3, 2017 8:37PM

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
I didn't bid there anyway......but won't ever now. That is crazy. 17.5 is crazy. I don't bid much at HA and that will go down.

Ebay all the way ..... and dealers sites...for me!

If the dealer bought from an auction you are paying the 17.5 or 20.0 PLUS.

mark

Dealers are not going to pay market value plus 17.5 or 20.

If the coin you bought from a dealer came from an auction you are indeed paid the vig.

mark

When I buy a coin from a dealer.....I am OK with the price and don't care what he paid.

So you are ok paying the 17.5 to 20 percent plus the dealers markup BUT you are not ok with only paying the 17.5 to 20 % directly to the auction house. Got it. Carry on.

mark

No.....he either got it cheaper than market value or didn't get it at auction...probably the later.

joebb21 · July 4, 2017 6:36AM

It looks like I have to memorize a whole new bidding system.

Shouldnt be too hard

ctf_error_coins · July 4, 2017 6:45AM

I would never pay a buyers fee.

The biggest coin venue (ebay) does not change buyers anything.

In fact, many of the coins that I do buy on ebay, ebay gives me 10% back in ebucks with their coupon.

The smart money buys coins from ebay.

Did Stacks raising their buyer's premium to 20% sneak under the radar?

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