Do you as a collector feel you should, or entitled to be able to buy coins at wholesale?

stman · July 2, 2017 10:06AM

I often see so called collectors say certain dealers have nice coins but they charge retail. So they won't buy from them. Nobody wants to pay more than necessary, but it seems a whole lot of " collectors" feel they should, or are entitled to wholesale.

So, what say you?

Zoins · July 2, 2017 10:09AM

Outside of coins, wholesale to me implies selling with lower expenses, either in volume or without much marketing.

mannie gray · July 2, 2017 10:19AM

Current "retail" is actually what used to be wholesale. Wholesale is another ballgame entirely.
Which is a long-winded way of saying that prices are sagging.
Those who can adapt to the real world can thrive, those that cannot will continue to dust off their 2x2s and trudge their stuff from show to show.

LindeDad · July 2, 2017 10:22AM

Only if they know and abide with what wholesale means.
1. Buy sight unseen in what ever quanity stated for the lot.
2. And know there is no returns.
3. Buy more than just once for one coin.

Zoins · July 2, 2017 10:26AM

I think Costco redefined wholesale for the masses. HA is somewhat similar for collectibles.

topstuf · July 2, 2017 10:27AM

Retail: what you want.
Wholesale: what you can get.

BillJones · July 2, 2017 10:30AM

I don't think that I should be entitled to buy at wholesale prices, but I don't think I should be treated like "meat on the table" either. Having been on both sides of table, I can understand the dealer point of veiw. My checks are always good which is something more than you can say for some of the dealers who pass bad ones. Believe me, those guys are out there. When you are a dealer you get know who you can't trust.

Moldnut · July 2, 2017 10:35AM

Pull out your resale license please.

topstuf · July 2, 2017 10:35AM

On the old teletype, we'd get messages......

"Exercise caution when dealing with ......xxxxxxxx"

That's all it took.

silverpop · July 2, 2017 11:08AM

never felt i'm entitled to anything when buying coins if the dealer thinks the coin is worth that much and my research doesn't agree with their idea i look elsewhere to buy coins, no amount of hype or anything the dealer will do can change the facts of the matter

astrorat · July 2, 2017 11:15AM

No

291fifth · July 2, 2017 11:28AM

The terms "wholesale" and "retail" in relation to the coin business have essentially become meaningless in the US. The advent of the internet and the additional ways to buy and sell that resulted have changed the way the market works.

CaptHenway · July 2, 2017 11:28AM

Dealers have to sell stuff for more than they pay for it to survive. This is simple Economics 101, but I understand that this bothers some people.

If the "Retail" value of X is $1,000 and the dealer is willing to buy it back for $800, then $800 is the "Wholesale" number. Now let's say that Joe Collector whines and says "But I want to pay $800 like you do," then the dealer is justified by saying "Do you understand that if I sell it to you for $800, then I can only buy it back for $650?"

Repeat this over and over and you have a declining market.

MrEureka · July 2, 2017 11:32AM

@Zoins said:
I think Costco redefined wholesale for the masses. HA is somewhat similar for collectibles.

Auctions are not wholesale or retail. They are something completely different. Same could be said of stock exchanges, by the way.

amwldcoin · July 2, 2017 11:35AM

As a collector/dealer There is a huge difference in what I will pay for a coin I want for my collection vrs. a coin I am buying to resell!

Zoins · July 2, 2017 11:38AM

I am entitled to buy at the price a seller is willing to sell. End of story.

logger7 · July 2, 2017 11:40AM

I'm not entitled to anything, morally, economically or legally except equal treatment under the law if I play by the rules. I bought too uncertified nice collector coins today at a small show, an 1916 Walker in XF and an 1877-cc quarter in XF for around $280. I play by reasonable rules and laws, but dealers can hold out for what they want and generally lose business.

19Lyds · July 2, 2017 11:43AM

@stman said:
I often see so called collectors say certain dealers have nice coins but they charge retail. So they won't buy from them. Nobody wants to pay more than necessary, but it seems a whole lot of " collectors" feel they should, or are entitled to wholesale.

So, what say you?

I disagree since, if a collector "really" wants coins at wholesale, then they can get out there and do the work that the dealer did so that he can sell his at "retail".

coinkat · July 2, 2017 11:45AM

Can you really buy what is worth buying at wholesale?

That strikes me as being a tall order...

ECHOES · July 2, 2017 11:52AM

@CaptHenway said:
Dealers have to sell stuff for more than they pay for it to survive. This is simple Economics 101, but I understand that this bothers some people.

+1

ColonelJessup · July 2, 2017 12:12PM

Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

tradedollarnut · July 2, 2017 2:26PM

@ColonelJessup said:
Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

I tend to disagree. Oops is what JA and KL bought it at. I paid wholesale. The reason I am reasonably certain about this is that they had multiple inquiries and I turned down a $100k flip profit.

roadrunner · July 2, 2017 2:33PM

@Zoins said:
I am entitled to buy at the price a seller is willing to sell. End of story.

That's what I thought. I had just finished selling a leading PNG dealer a PCGS MS66 seated half for $4500 or so. I asked them what was the price on their NGC MS66 1879 half in inventory. Their reply: "It's at retail." So I tell them I often pay retail. Please quote me a price. Then they say: "its retail retail." I get it....it's a one way street.

I have no problem paying "retail." Often times a dealer's retail price is still low enough where I am into the coin at my wholesale level and can make money from there....or at least put me into it near 0% premium. Some of my best deals have come by paying a "dealer's retail" price. That can work very well when they're selling a MS63 at retail...and the coin is a 65.

cameonut2011 · July 2, 2017 2:45PM

@mannie gray said:
Current "retail" is actually what used to be wholesale. Wholesale is another ballgame entirely.
Which is a long-winded way of saying that prices are sagging.
Those who can adapt to the real world can thrive, those that cannot will continue to dust off their 2x2s and trudge their stuff from show to show.

I would phrase it differently. Except for a small percentage of the market, the retail market has evaporated almost completely.

cnncoins · July 2, 2017 2:50PM

With the advent of so much information available to collectors, the concept of "wholesale-retail" market is very difficult to define. Most coins I have, I price at what I think the coin is worth, regardless of whether it is going to a dealer or a collector.
The challenge is buying coins a little in back of what I think I can sell them for....

MrEureka · July 2, 2017 3:06PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@ColonelJessup said:
Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

I tend to disagree. Oops is what JA and KL bought it at. I paid wholesale. The reason I am reasonably certain about this is that they had multiple inquiries and I turned down a $100k flip profit.

Are you suggesting that we define "retail" as a price that has no potential for profitable resale in the short term? If not, how would you define it?

Mission16 · July 2, 2017 3:36PM

"Wholesale" to me means a quantity of the same or similar items. Think boxes of Morgan dollars as opposed to a single 1804 dollar.
TDN likely got that 1804 at a lower price because of his quality relationships with the sellers. They knew he wasn't likely to just flip it for another $100k.
A seller with 1000 ms65 Morgans is more likely to want to sell "wholesale" to a buyer who is going to take them all, as opposed to a collector needing a single or even a dozen to fill holes.
I get asked everyday for "contractor pricing" from folks buying lumber for a shed. Some don't understand why their $1000.00 quote doesn't get the same discount as the builder who buys full bunks of lumber.

tradedollarnut · July 2, 2017 3:54PM

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@ColonelJessup said:
Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

I tend to disagree. Oops is what JA and KL bought it at. I paid wholesale. The reason I am reasonably certain about this is that they had multiple inquiries and I turned down a $100k flip profit.

Are you suggesting that we define "retail" as a price that has no potential for profitable resale in the short term? If not, how would you define it?

Sounds good to me

MrEureka · July 2, 2017 4:28PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@ColonelJessup said:
Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

I tend to disagree. Oops is what JA and KL bought it at. I paid wholesale. The reason I am reasonably certain about this is that they had multiple inquiries and I turned down a $100k flip profit.

Are you suggesting that we define "retail" as a price that has no potential for profitable resale in the short term? If not, how would you define it?

Sounds good to me

So if a collector buys a coin off Legend's retail website and ends up selling it shortly thereafter (for whatever reason) at a small profit, would it be right to call his initial purchase a wholesale transaction?

tradedollarnut · July 2, 2017 4:37PM

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@ColonelJessup said:
Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

I tend to disagree. Oops is what JA and KL bought it at. I paid wholesale. The reason I am reasonably certain about this is that they had multiple inquiries and I turned down a $100k flip profit.

Are you suggesting that we define "retail" as a price that has no potential for profitable resale in the short term? If not, how would you define it?

Sounds good to me

So if a collector buys a coin off Legend's retail website and ends up selling it shortly thereafter (for whatever reason) at a small profit, would it be right to call his initial purchase a wholesale transaction?

Small profit? I don't think 1-2% is significant enough to change a definition. 25%? Sounds more like a pricing oops.

I'm sure intent also plays a role. Legend is a retailer, JA a wholesaler.

tradedollarnut · July 2, 2017 4:46PM

Which also begs the question:

If a retailer buys at auction and marks it up 10% for sale on a website, does that mean buying at auction is wholesale?

thisnamztaken · July 2, 2017 5:22PM

@stman said:
I often see so called collectors say certain dealers have nice coins but they charge retail. So they won't buy from them. Nobody wants to pay more than necessary, but it seems a whole lot of " collectors" feel they should, or are entitled to wholesale.

So, what say you?

Entitled? No! As a non-dealer collector do I hope/try to negotiate and buy somewhere between "wholesale" and "retail" for a solid or better-for-the - grade coin. Yes.
Even in America we are only "entitled" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So far I haven't noticed any "safe rooms" with stuffed animals, crying towels, and play dough available at coin shows or B&M dealers' stores for those of us that believe that the world owes us a living or special perks regardless of how much hard work, study, investing, or personal sacrifice to achieve personal goals we put forth. .

topstuf · July 2, 2017 5:24PM

Who was that company in the 1970's that advertised they just took scoops of coins from their bins and that's what you got in their "offerings?"
It was always a hoot to read their ad copy.
C'mon, somebody remembers them.

I'd say any "scoop" of coins would be a wholesale lot.
Except they weren't.

stman · July 2, 2017 5:37PM

@thisnamztaken said:

@stman said:
I often see so called collectors say certain dealers have nice coins but they charge retail. So they won't buy from them. Nobody wants to pay more than necessary, but it seems a whole lot of " collectors" feel they should, or are entitled to wholesale.

So, what say you?

Entitled? No! As a non-dealer collector do I hope/try to negotiate and buy somewhere between "wholesale" and "retail" for a solid or better-for-the - grade coin. Yes.
Even in America we are only "entitled" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So far I haven't noticed any "safe rooms" with stuffed animals, crying towels, and play dough available at coin shows or B&M dealers' stores for those of us that believe that the world owes us a living or special perks regardless of how much hard work, study, investing, or personal sacrifice to achieve personal goals we put forth. .

keets · July 2, 2017 5:44PM

the short and correct answer is no.

what a collector can do, though, is to establish a relationship with a dealer and get a better price closer to wholesale. expecting wholesale all the time from anyone is unreasonable. I think the best thing any collector can do is ask for a "best price" on a coin they're interested in, then make a decision.

with all that said it seems that currently it is a buyers market. some collectors probably sense that and feel they should be able to leverage a dealer into wholesale. I doubt the tactic will work.

neildrobertson · July 2, 2017 5:47PM

Nobody is entitled to anything. Get the best deal you can however you can (as long as you do it ethically).

BryceM · July 2, 2017 6:15PM

Dealers (or anyone else) can set whatever prices they want.

Besides, the usual meanings of "wholesale" and "retail" hardly apply to transactions involving unique items. With collectible coins, there is no economy of scale, except in common, quasi-numismatic material.

Some dealers may offer coins to other dealers at a lower price when a future reciprocal kindness is anticipated. It's called doing business. There aren't many collectors who would warrant these terms.

mustangmanbob · July 2, 2017 9:00PM

Fortunately, my business has no retail or wholesale. It is all used, mostly 50 year old items. There is no 418 publications that quote a different price for the same item. So, the price is whatever I set, and if it sells, it sells. If it is too high, I don't sell, and if too low, someone else scoops it up.

Someone who buys a lot from me, gets a discount. Someone making an offer on something I hate looking at because it has been around too long, gets a deal.

IMHO, the concept of RETAIL and WHOLESALE on a product that is USED (meaning all coins not coming from the mint) is going the way of the Dodo bird. Even "brand new" 1964 proof sets are USED, as they are now in the secondary market.

Too much information, too many people can access information, too many items on ebay, etc.

Retail and wholesale are lines that are converging, and the convergence is closer than many want to believe.

DancingFire · July 2, 2017 11:47PM

@Moldnut said:
Pull out your resale license please.

You mean my hundred bills?

Peace_dollar88 · July 3, 2017 6:25AM

Entitled? No! But it's nice when a solid coin comes up and is offered to me at wholesale.

Cougar1978 · July 3, 2017 6:45AM

I am in the coin business to retail my material and execute my business model for positive ROI / maximum time effiency.

Setting up at shows (or the occasional low ball offer via my online store) I encounter these people all the time (who want buy it for cheap denying me a decent profitt). At a good selling show or strong market they aren't even noticeable. I may even buy some good deals from them if deal is right and make good money down the line. As far as I am concerned they can go open a coin shop but as far as profitability for my business they are a no go / nonexistent element in terms of sales. Heroes (retail buyers / have good buying deal for me) zeros (those who waste of time).

In RCI with online the border between wholesale and retail can be blurred. Certainly one should get the best deal they can. I am not going to be the bank for them (or their mistakes) if they need to sell as my offer is based on inventory needs and estimated profit for an offer about 60 pct what can sell for or less. Furthermore if you as an adult individual get ripped in the numismatic arena, i feel for u been there too. You excercised free will, get over it, and learn from your lesson / tuition.

I don't do business with minors for obvious reasons.

I define whosale as CDN Bid and consider Bid plus 10 pct dealer to dealer wholesale. I would say bid plus 15 pct low retail, bid plus 25 -40 pct mid range retail, and 50 pct and above high range retail (key coins, cheap stuff under $50, esoteric material). One large NN advertiser is at a consistent bid plus 40-50 pct or even much more like if CAC big ticket coin (he was double bubble on that one). At recent show setup in browsing bourse purchased NGC 69 1 oz buffalos at bv plus 5pct, NGC 69 1/10 oz AGE bv plus 10 pct. Found some nice slabbed Morgan's 63-65 at 10 pct back of bid to bid.

Auction prices not necessarily wholesale IMV bc what somebody gave something away for or perfect storm bid war just part of total big picture.

shorecoll · July 3, 2017 7:10AM

I don't expect wholesale, but expect a decent deal (which is highly variable). If I'm treated fairly, I buy more. I usually don't want 6 of the same thing, but I may buy 6 different ones to get a good deal.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 3, 2017 12:08PM

Perceptions and attitudes hurt the hobby more than grading & pricing affect the market. Entitlement is a pervasive and illogical thought process. Who here is "entitled" ? Probably the same folks on the dole.

TPRC · July 3, 2017 12:17PM

@amwldcoin said:
As a collector/dealer There is a huge difference in what I will pay for a coin I want for my collection vrs. a coin I am buying to resell!

So true!

1630Boston · July 3, 2017 12:24PM

First off..............define "so called collectors"
And yes I would buy at the lowest possible price, what ever it is called.
But then again, I do not buy and then sell, I collect

Great post by the way, thanks

roadrunner · July 3, 2017 12:39PM

While slacker, low ball collectors aren't entitled to wholesale price levels, or even good deals, neither are high-balling, opportunistic dealers who think they are entitled to profits and a living because they set up at coin shows, sell on Ebay, own a shop, or have a website. As a collector, I am in the business of getting the best value for my money. If that conflicts with the dealer's ROI and maximum efficiency models, that's of no concern to me.

Kccoin · July 3, 2017 12:49PM

From what I have seen, buying coins at a "wholesale" level generally requires a "market presence". Be it a table holder at a show, shop owner, a reputation as a dealer locally or nationally, or what have you.

The dealers that are so kind as to allow me to buy, as a collector, solid coins at " bid" in a retail setting probably do so because I have been buying from them, and will continue to do so. Better believe I was paying the Rat Rate up front

A collector hoping to buy coins in a retail setting at wholesale must know that it costs more than a $12 GS to do so.

BAJJERFAN · July 3, 2017 1:24PM

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@ColonelJessup said:
Wholesale is what John and Kevin paid. Retail is what TDN paid.
Next one that comes up, they'll pay less. One less potential retail buyer.

AKA "I'll have to buy it back at $650"

I tend to disagree. Oops is what JA and KL bought it at. I paid wholesale. The reason I am reasonably certain about this is that they had multiple inquiries and I turned down a $100k flip profit.

Are you suggesting that we define "retail" as a price that has no potential for profitable resale in the short term? If not, how would you define it?

Sounds good to me

So if a collector buys a coin off Legend's retail website and ends up selling it shortly thereafter (for whatever reason) at a small profit, would it be right to call his initial purchase a wholesale transaction?

No.

One point being overlooked is that coins in general and classic coins in particular are not really amenable to wholesale and retail in the sense that a lot of other merchandise is. If I need a spark plug for my lawn mower, I can go to WalMart and buy one and it will usually be the same spark plug and at the same price at any WM store. Champion sells them for the same price to anyone willing to buy a certain minimum. A B & M hardware store is not likely to to get them for the same price as WM does. 5 years from now, Champion will still be producing the same spark plug. Classic coins are hardly ever exactly alike and 2 1889-CC Morgans in PCGS vf20 can command quite different prices. It do piss me off a bit when "collectors" expect me to sell at the same or lower prices as others sell like coins at. If one can get the same coin I'm selling somewhere else cheaper, then I say go for it.

stman · July 3, 2017 2:56PM

Thanks for the discussion, all. I do feel some take my words of wholesale, and entitled a bit too serous. I know I asked and expected it. I offered the word should though.

Cougar1978 · July 3, 2017 10:38PM

I never felt I had to be entitled do anything - I just go straight to the source / shop around.

lava · July 4, 2017 12:51AM

I think the marketplace works like this. Seller says coin is worth $1,000, translation: fine, the person who buys from me is going to want to be in it for less than that, so if I'm going to get involved, I need get in and out with a profit to make it worth my time and still leave some meat on the bone for my buyer. If the seller is in it for $900 or more, I'm wasting my time.

If I'm paying full value, there is no market. I'm set up to fail in that case.

Do you as a collector feel you should, or entitled to be able to buy coins at wholesale?

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