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Spot conservation or coin doctoring?

Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 27, 2017 4:54PM in U.S. Coin Forum

The bright green "active" corrosion product is often seen on copper cents. Even if removed, the underlying surface is often no longer original. This time, I think the coin was saved thanks to the "Dipper's Are US" Conservation Service who also provided the 25X images of their work.


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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭


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    ECHOESECHOES Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Curious as to why would you use the word 'doctoring'?

    ~HABE FIDUCIAM IN DOMINO III V VI / III XVI~
    POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
    Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
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    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NICE conservation on a coin before it was too late. Conservation should not be considered doctoring........but some think it is.

    OINK

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    kazkaz Posts: 9,354 ✭✭✭✭✭

    looks like appropriate neutralization/conservation to me. nice save.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is posted on another forum as a poll. Not one vote has been cast either way yet; however, two VIP's over there consider this to be doctoring and think the buyer should be told about what I believe is "conservation."

    Is this considered a spot removal? A "spot removal" will get a coin detailed if it is seen by a grader. Generally, the folks doing them leave evidence in the form of scratches.

    @ECHOES

    Sometimes, it is a thin line. What if a person takes a copper spot off a gold coin and then "blends" its original "skin" with the "raw" surface where the spot was. Is that "doctoring" or conservation? :)

    .

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2017 9:35PM

    @Insider2 said:
    two VIP's over there consider this to be doctoring and think the buyer should be told about what I believe is "conservation."

    Are you saying that, if this is considered conservation, the buyer does not need to be told?

    Above a certain price level, I would expect this to be disclosed, regardless of how it is classified.

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    ECHOESECHOES Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stork said:
    My way of looking at it is that 'conservation' is preventative medicine and 'doctoring' is cosmetic surgery/enhancement meant to improve and deceive. I would call this conservation.

    @Zoins said:

    @Insider2 said:
    two VIP's over there consider this to be doctoring and think the buyer should be told about what I believe is "conservation."

    >

    Above a certain price level, I would expect this to be disclosed, regardless of how it is classified.

    I agree with these statements,
    Insider2, if done in such a way as to deceive, then I would consider 'doctoring'. To remove a spot to prevent future damage IMO is 'conservation.

    ~HABE FIDUCIAM IN DOMINO III V VI / III XVI~
    POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
    Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coin conservation is the prevention of deterioration - which may already have begun - in which case (as in the OP) it is prevention of further deterioration. Doctoring - of coins - means the enhancement of a coins surface to increase value and (usually) deceive prospective buyers. Cheers, RickO

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins asked: "Are you saying that, if this is considered conservation, the buyer does not need to be told? Above a certain price level, I would expect this to be disclosed, regardless of how it is classified."

    IMHO, 99.99% of professional numismatists (including me) and TPGS graders could not tell ANYTHING that company did to that area of the coin was:

    Fixed
    Improved
    Conserved
    Tooled
    Whatever

    News flash, If the corrosion removal is virtually invisible at 25X, none of us is going to see it. I don't buy coins at 25X and I doubt the TPGS grade them at that power either!

    I've seen a few coins that were properly conserved and they were straight graded as this coin should be. IMO, anyone who expects the owner of this coin to say it was "restored" to market acceptability is - well...

    I'll bet there are very few "Saints" in numismatics. Therefore, there is nothing to tell a buyer. IMHO, at least 85% of the "raw" coins I examine have enough problems that I'll pass. I will not comment on any slabbed coins here as I do not know what is "market acceptable" or what is not - unless it is something obvious in a "detail" holder.

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    derrybderryb Posts: 38,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are doctors and there are surgeons.

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The doctors have better coins to fix. The collectors prefer "preservation" or "conservation" as words or methods, to skirt around whatever it is we do to coins, to get them market-ready. Not necessarily acceptable, but doable. Enter experts to ascertain which ones they like, which ones they don't, and which ones YOU should or shouldn't collect.
    ( CAC isn't related to PNG, isn't related to ANA, isn't connected to ANACS, etc., etc., etc. ) They're businesses vying for business.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 9,712 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just curious what the methods are for conserving copper as well as Liberty and Shield nickel without damaging the metal? Buyers don't need to be informed of work that does nothing to damage or doctor the surface, otherwise full disclosure would get pretty onerous. "Cleaning" however should be clear in the description of a numismatic item.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said: "Just curious what the methods are for conserving copper as well as Liberty and Shield nickel without damaging the metal?"

    Me too! I've been trying for years to pry trade secrets out of folks using cash, booze, food, and women. No luck.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a certain ultra rarity graded 67 with a noticeable spot in the field partially effaced by scratches

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know one coin doctor who prefers to think of himself as an artist. He's not wrong.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

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