@tdiaz1979 said:
I am just getting into the hobby and found out I cannot send my coins to CAC directly. This puts me at the mercy of whatever a dealer wants to charge for certification. I know I am new at this, but if enough collectors told the dealers they are not going to pay premium for a stickers, would this not stop? What good does it do to be good at grading when you are dependent on a bunch of stickers. Just a thought.
Welcome to this great hobby. You are not at the mercy of a dealer charging you whatever they want for certification. Most will do it for free. Just the cost of CAC and many postage. You can submit directly as a collector but there is indeed a waiting list. Put your name on it. The advantage of sending in coins as a collector is that if they don't pass you don't get charged for it.
mark
I appreciate the info. A dealer told me it would cost me $150 in shipping plus the grading for CAC. Seems a bit high.
@keets said:
if things keep going the way they appear to be headed a collector soon won't even need to know how to grade. it will all be like a free trip to the bank while humming a version of "2525" that says some machine's doing that for you in the grading room. it strikes me as odd that here, at the pre-eminent TPG's chat room where so many supposed astute Numismatists with top tier grading skills reside, there is such a reliance on multiple grade appraisals.
has everyone lost confidence in their own skill or has that skill been overrated to begin with??
All that skill is meaningless when it comes time to sell your coins into the market place or at auction. The buyers there predominantly go by holders, assigned grade label, stickers, + signs, pops, registry ranks, price guides, etc. In general, everything but the coin itself, lol. Your skill has just been neutralized by the market if all of the above don't agree with your assessment. And heaven forbid if you put all those grading skills to work into an NGC holdered coin, even if ok for the assigned grade.
@BryceM said:
I dunno. When I look at a coin it's binary...... Yup or Nope. As long as the price is reasonable, I don't get too hung up on nickels and dimes.
But if you collect gem seated dollars like TDN, those dimes and nickels are $5,000 and $10,000 steps. If you recall his post from last year he outlined the value of a gem MS65 seated dollar/type coin based on holder. It went something like this:
MS65 NGC very low end -$25K
MS65 NGC acceptable for grade/but uncrossable - $35K
MS65 PCGS low end $45K
MS65 PGCS decent for grade $50K-$55K
MS65 NGC CAC $50K-55K
MS65 PCGS CAC $65K-$85K
That's a triple spread for the same grade...and a lot dimes and nickels along the way. The same ratios hold true on many $100 to $1,000 coins too. The decision to buy or pass is indeed binary. The ability to split these gradations is not.
The stickered coins would be differentiated from the low end, and probably salable for more than sight-unseen levels.
Certainly for PCGS coins. But, in the NGC realm, even stickered ones often bring prices (at auction) similar to lower end, unstickered PCGS coins. It depends a lot on the series.
@ricko said: "The solution, as I have said, here and elsewhere, is computer grading. It is technically achievable,"
I disagree. If it ever happens (machine graded by computer program w/no human input. In the "box" out the grade) it will not be in our children's lifetimes.
@ricko said: "Once done, it will eliminate all the issues with the possible EXCEPTION of eye appeal."
That's why it will not happen anytime soon.
@ricko said: "If there is one, ultimate, authoritative program, that would eliminate TPG's, FPG's as we know them today. "
Yeah, like the ANA grading standards that no one of any importance followed back then or now.
IMO, the ONLY way to standardize grading is to image everything, share the image to a data base (Internet) that any TPGS or collector can view. If PCGS posts a coin with a grade, it will always get that grade at PCGS if in the same condition. If NGC gets the same coin they will see it has been graded and either keep the grade or enter their "new" opinion. That coin will now have 2 grades with its image. No little black box needed and this could be started today as the major TPGS are already imaging coins. One day, these images will be the only way to detect the most deceptive C/F's in a short period of time.
@Insider2 ... Yes, your recommendation is a first step, but with AI coming full online, the eventual standard will be computer grading... and eye appeal, being totally subjective, will be dealt with differently. I would not give you two cents for tarnish, no matter what color, while others pay a premium. Addressing the ANA standards, they too were subjective....as such, NOT standards. Cheers, RickO
All that skill is meaningless when it comes time to sell your coins into the market place or at auction.
my point is simple and you seem to have reinforced it: collectors as a group seem to have gravitated away from a reliance on their own knowledge and skill towards "counting" on the various TPG's, or someone else they trust to evaluate a coin. at the same time, and running the risk of alienating some members, that applies here, also, hence the reliance on getting everything graded and then CAC'd and then checked by a dealer, etc.
I appreciate the info. A dealer told me it would cost me $150 in shipping plus the grading for CAC. Seems a bit high.
A collector-submitter pays CAC $13.50 per coin, plus return registered mail shipping of something like $25-30. They recommend you ship to them via registered, insured mail in the first place, which is another $25-30.
So your first and only coin would cost $62.50 or something close to it with each additional coin adding about $12.50, maybe a touch more for the marginal insurance costs. This assumes some collector-submitter is willing to do this for free. But there's your price floor.
If you join a local coin club & make some friends I think there's a good chance you could find a collector-submitter willing to help you out. Doing that arms length with a stranger is a bit of a challenge given the opportunities for misunderstandings/miscommunication and potential fraud. Best of luck.
[Edit: submission pricing went up a buck since I last did it..]
@ricko said: @Insider2 ... Yes, your recommendation is a first step, but with AI coming full online, the eventual standard will be computer grading... and eye appeal, being totally subjective, will be dealt with differently. I would not give you two cents for tarnish, no matter what color, while others pay a premium. Addressing the ANA standards, they too were subjective....as such, NOT standards. Cheers, RickO
You know me and my nature to argue...
The point I am making is this: While in many cases an NGC MS-65 may not be the same as a PCGS MS-65, a measure of a foot is not 10" in NJ and 13" in FL. A true standard is a fixed standard. It does not change.
Therefore, at anytime since the 1970's, any national organization could publish a standard for grading coins and if EVERYONE followed it, much of coin grading would become more precise due to that universally adopted standard system.
Down the road, a computer will be able to grade a coin technically. This is very easy to teach and can be learned in a very short time. A computer will probably never be able to factor eye appeal or value by scanning a coin.
For example, only a very successful, knowledgeable, professional dealer/numismatist can take a damaged, unoriginal, borderline F/VF, "rare" gold coin and grade it XF with a CAC sticker an have most dealers/collectors love the coin and agree with its assigned grade. A computer will never be able to do it.
@Insider2 ...I call it debate or discussion, and welcome it. Yes, computer grading will be technical... as, IMO, all grading should be. As far as value, that is totally up to he/she whom is making the purchase. Eye appeal will always factor into value.... It is not part of computer grading to assign value... the market will drive value. I look forward to the day that grading is purely technical. Cheers, RickO
@ricko said: "Yes, computer grading will be technical... as, IMO, all grading should be. As far as value, that is totally up to he/she whom is making the purchase. Eye appeal will always factor into value.... It is not part of computer grading to assign value... the market will drive value. I look forward to the day that grading is purely technical. Cheers, RickO"
We are brothers in spirit and wishes! What you suggest will introduce precision into the equation and eliminate 97% of the subjectivity between educated, informed, knowledgeable graders with good eye-sight.
I've been in 3-day grading seminars where even non-numismatists learned "technical" grading! Of course, value, and commercial grading was only introduced to the class. You cannot teach why most 1884-S dollars that look uncirculated are graded AU.
Anyway. we can dream on. An AU rare coin worth $$$,$$$ will never be graded AU any more (even though it was once considered only an XF!)
Some markets are 'furcing' and others are 'furcated'....the extent to which they are 'furced' is debatable.... as we have been doing here..... Cheers, RickO
Computers can learn to grade technically. Unfortunately, that's only part of the equation when valuing a coin and assigning an overall "market grade" to it. A technical grade of 63 on a coin with 66 eye appeal is fairly useless....just as it is on a technical grade of 65 on a coin with 63 eye appeal. Humans will still be needed to take the technical grade and bump it up, down, or sideways as appropriate.
@ricko said:
Some markets are 'furcing' and others are 'furcated'....the extent to which they are 'furced' is debatable.... as we have been doing here..... Cheers, RickO
I'm too old to "furcate" any more. There is a downturn in that market. If it recovers, I'll be a happy collector again.
@BryceM said:
I dunno. When I look at a coin it's binary...... Yup or Nope. As long as the price is reasonable, I don't get too hung up on nickels and dimes.
I appreciate the info. A dealer told me it would cost me $150 in shipping plus the grading for CAC. Seems a bit high.
A collector-submitter pays CAC $13.50 per coin, plus return registered mail shipping of something like $25-30. They recommend you ship to them via registered, insured mail in the first place, which is another $25-30.
So your first and only coin would cost $62.50 or something close to it with each additional coin adding about $12.50, maybe a touch more for the marginal insurance costs. This assumes some collector-submitter is willing to do this for free. But there's your price floor.
If you join a local coin club & make some friends I think there's a good chance you could find a collector-submitter willing to help you out. Doing that arms length with a stranger is a bit of a challenge given the opportunities for misunderstandings/miscommunication and potential fraud. Best of luck.
[Edit: submission pricing went up a buck since I last did it..]
@BryceM said:
I would imagine the idea of computer grading is a bit worrisome to our hosts. There's no long-term market in doing that.
AFAIK, our host was the second company to work on computer grading. They already have a lot of money invested even if they never(?) finalized it. As you know, Compugrade, actually slabbed Morgan dollars that were supposedly graded by a computer.
Let me add this. When a "pre-Expert" was put on display at a major show to give everyone an idea of how it worked, I happened to be taking the test with someone you all know who was as curious as I was. We both agreed computer grading was a "bust" and our grade was different. As for Compugrade back in the 1980's. This month I bought one of their slabs. It is beautiful with a top label and all. The dollar inside was graded MS-62.1. I told the seller it was actually a frosty, original MS-64+ and IMO it would have graded no lower than a 63 ever. In fact, it would have graded MS-65 by ANACS before most of their '65's became '63's back then.
Sophisticated and Decisive "SAD", a new dynamic grading service is pleased to announce that we have a group of sophisticated and decisive graders set to offer a sophisticated and decisive service. Our mission is to separate the low from the lowest and identify mediocrity instead of mistakes. Simply put ... Your coins need to be identified and stickered as SAD coins to insure that your collection gains the recognition required in the quest to seek and obtain mediocrity.
Be the first to dazzle your collector friends, dealers and for that matter... The entire Numismatic Community with your SAD coins. Our service has the highly sought after SAD designation which approves and confirms that your coins are what you thought all along... Mediocre.
But do not be alarmed or disappointed if a coin fails to meet our mediocre expectations. We offer other designations to help guide the collector to assemble the set that sets the expectations. Those SAD coins that miss mediocrity still can be designated as a SAD excuse for the grade which is above our consolation tier, NO excuse for the grade. So there really is an exciting place in your collection for SAD coins...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@BryceM said:
I would imagine the idea of computer grading is a bit worrisome to our hosts. There's no long-term market in doing that.
If everything had to be regraded by a computer, that could be good for another 10-30 yrs as all the old stuff trickles back in. The old crowd surely wouldn't like it. Those just starting out, really wouldn't care.....or would just begin buying the new product. Making such a grading shift would be a reasonable idea when the time left on the current grading structure in down to 5 yrs or less.
I think the "Powers That BE" will fight computer grading as long as possible, it is one thing to know a that a lot of your MS coins with "rub" are AU, and it's an entirely different thing to see that printed on the label. Of course you can always program the computer to say they are still MS, but then you have the same situation we are in now.
Comments
I appreciate the info. A dealer told me it would cost me $150 in shipping plus the grading for CAC. Seems a bit high.
I was talking to a prominent collector who thinks it's fournicated.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
All that skill is meaningless when it comes time to sell your coins into the market place or at auction. The buyers there predominantly go by holders, assigned grade label, stickers, + signs, pops, registry ranks, price guides, etc. In general, everything but the coin itself, lol. Your skill has just been neutralized by the market if all of the above don't agree with your assessment. And heaven forbid if you put all those grading skills to work into an NGC holdered coin, even if ok for the assigned grade.
But if you collect gem seated dollars like TDN, those dimes and nickels are $5,000 and $10,000 steps. If you recall his post from last year he outlined the value of a gem MS65 seated dollar/type coin based on holder. It went something like this:
MS65 NGC very low end -$25K
MS65 NGC acceptable for grade/but uncrossable - $35K
MS65 PCGS low end $45K
MS65 PGCS decent for grade $50K-$55K
MS65 NGC CAC $50K-55K
MS65 PCGS CAC $65K-$85K
That's a triple spread for the same grade...and a lot dimes and nickels along the way. The same ratios hold true on many $100 to $1,000 coins too. The decision to buy or pass is indeed binary. The ability to split these gradations is not.
The stickered coins would be differentiated from the low end, and probably salable for more than sight-unseen levels.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Certainly for PCGS coins. But, in the NGC realm, even stickered ones often bring prices (at auction) similar to lower end, unstickered PCGS coins. It depends a lot on the series.
@ricko said: "The solution, as I have said, here and elsewhere, is computer grading. It is technically achievable,"
I disagree. If it ever happens (machine graded by computer program w/no human input. In the "box" out the grade) it will not be in our children's lifetimes.
@ricko said: "Once done, it will eliminate all the issues with the possible EXCEPTION of eye appeal."
That's why it will not happen anytime soon.
@ricko said: "If there is one, ultimate, authoritative program, that would eliminate TPG's, FPG's as we know them today. "
Yeah, like the ANA grading standards that no one of any importance followed back then or now.
IMO, the ONLY way to standardize grading is to image everything, share the image to a data base (Internet) that any TPGS or collector can view. If PCGS posts a coin with a grade, it will always get that grade at PCGS if in the same condition. If NGC gets the same coin they will see it has been graded and either keep the grade or enter their "new" opinion. That coin will now have 2 grades with its image. No little black box needed and this could be started today as the major TPGS are already imaging coins. One day, these images will be the only way to detect the most deceptive C/F's in a short period of time.
@Insider2 ... Yes, your recommendation is a first step, but with AI coming full online, the eventual standard will be computer grading... and eye appeal, being totally subjective, will be dealt with differently. I would not give you two cents for tarnish, no matter what color, while others pay a premium. Addressing the ANA standards, they too were subjective....as such, NOT standards. Cheers, RickO
All that skill is meaningless when it comes time to sell your coins into the market place or at auction.
my point is simple and you seem to have reinforced it: collectors as a group seem to have gravitated away from a reliance on their own knowledge and skill towards "counting" on the various TPG's, or someone else they trust to evaluate a coin. at the same time, and running the risk of alienating some members, that applies here, also, hence the reliance on getting everything graded and then CAC'd and then checked by a dealer, etc.
>
A collector-submitter pays CAC $13.50 per coin, plus return registered mail shipping of something like $25-30. They recommend you ship to them via registered, insured mail in the first place, which is another $25-30.
So your first and only coin would cost $62.50 or something close to it with each additional coin adding about $12.50, maybe a touch more for the marginal insurance costs. This assumes some collector-submitter is willing to do this for free. But there's your price floor.
If you join a local coin club & make some friends I think there's a good chance you could find a collector-submitter willing to help you out. Doing that arms length with a stranger is a bit of a challenge given the opportunities for misunderstandings/miscommunication and potential fraud. Best of luck.
[Edit: submission pricing went up a buck since I last did it..]
You know me and my nature to argue...
The point I am making is this: While in many cases an NGC MS-65 may not be the same as a PCGS MS-65, a measure of a foot is not 10" in NJ and 13" in FL. A true standard is a fixed standard. It does not change.
Therefore, at anytime since the 1970's, any national organization could publish a standard for grading coins and if EVERYONE followed it, much of coin grading would become more precise due to that universally adopted standard system.
Down the road, a computer will be able to grade a coin technically. This is very easy to teach and can be learned in a very short time. A computer will probably never be able to factor eye appeal or value by scanning a coin.
For example, only a very successful, knowledgeable, professional dealer/numismatist can take a damaged, unoriginal, borderline F/VF, "rare" gold coin and grade it XF with a CAC sticker an have most dealers/collectors love the coin and agree with its assigned grade. A computer will never be able to do it.
@Insider2 ...I call it debate or discussion, and welcome it. Yes, computer grading will be technical... as, IMO, all grading should be. As far as value, that is totally up to he/she whom is making the purchase. Eye appeal will always factor into value.... It is not part of computer grading to assign value... the market will drive value. I look forward to the day that grading is purely technical. Cheers, RickO
@ricko said: "Yes, computer grading will be technical... as, IMO, all grading should be. As far as value, that is totally up to he/she whom is making the purchase. Eye appeal will always factor into value.... It is not part of computer grading to assign value... the market will drive value. I look forward to the day that grading is purely technical. Cheers, RickO"
We are brothers in spirit and wishes! What you suggest will introduce precision into the equation and eliminate 97% of the subjectivity between educated, informed, knowledgeable graders with good eye-sight.
I've been in 3-day grading seminars where even non-numismatists learned "technical" grading! Of course, value, and commercial grading was only introduced to the class. You cannot teach why most 1884-S dollars that look uncirculated are graded AU.
Anyway. we can dream on. An AU rare coin worth $$$,$$$ will never be graded AU any more (even though it was once considered only an XF!)
Wow. That's seriously furcated.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Some markets are 'furcing' and others are 'furcated'....the extent to which they are 'furced' is debatable.... as we have been doing here.....
Cheers, RickO
Computers can learn to grade technically. Unfortunately, that's only part of the equation when valuing a coin and assigning an overall "market grade" to it. A technical grade of 63 on a coin with 66 eye appeal is fairly useless....just as it is on a technical grade of 65 on a coin with 63 eye appeal. Humans will still be needed to take the technical grade and bump it up, down, or sideways as appropriate.
I'm too old to "furcate" any more.
There is a downturn in that market. If it recovers, I'll be a happy collector again.
I would imagine the idea of computer grading is a bit worrisome to our hosts. There's no long-term market in doing that.
Hey, I get hung up on Dimes!
Thanks for the info
AFAIK, our host was the second company to work on computer grading. They already have a lot of money invested even if they never(?) finalized it. As you know, Compugrade, actually slabbed Morgan dollars that were supposedly graded by a computer.
Let me add this. When a "pre-Expert" was put on display at a major show to give everyone an idea of how it worked, I happened to be taking the test with someone you all know who was as curious as I was. We both agreed computer grading was a "bust" and our grade was different. As for Compugrade back in the 1980's. This month I bought one of their slabs. It is beautiful with a top label and all. The dollar inside was graded MS-62.1. I told the seller it was actually a frosty, original MS-64+ and IMO it would have graded no lower than a 63 ever. In fact, it would have graded MS-65 by ANACS before most of their '65's became '63's back then.
@Insider2 ... "I'm too old to "furcate" any more.
There is a downturn..."
Cheers, RickO
Sorry to hear about your downturn.....
Sophisticated and Decisive "SAD", a new dynamic grading service is pleased to announce that we have a group of sophisticated and decisive graders set to offer a sophisticated and decisive service. Our mission is to separate the low from the lowest and identify mediocrity instead of mistakes. Simply put ... Your coins need to be identified and stickered as SAD coins to insure that your collection gains the recognition required in the quest to seek and obtain mediocrity.
Be the first to dazzle your collector friends, dealers and for that matter... The entire Numismatic Community with your SAD coins. Our service has the highly sought after SAD designation which approves and confirms that your coins are what you thought all along... Mediocre.
But do not be alarmed or disappointed if a coin fails to meet our mediocre expectations. We offer other designations to help guide the collector to assemble the set that sets the expectations. Those SAD coins that miss mediocrity still can be designated as a SAD excuse for the grade which is above our consolation tier, NO excuse for the grade. So there really is an exciting place in your collection for SAD coins...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
And here I thought SAD meant Sorry-ass Dreck.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
If everything had to be regraded by a computer, that could be good for another 10-30 yrs as all the old stuff trickles back in. The old crowd surely wouldn't like it. Those just starting out, really wouldn't care.....or would just begin buying the new product. Making such a grading shift would be a reasonable idea when the time left on the current grading structure in down to 5 yrs or less.
I think the "Powers That BE" will fight computer grading as long as possible, it is one thing to know a that a lot of your MS coins with "rub" are AU, and it's an entirely different thing to see that printed on the label. Of course you can always program the computer to say they are still MS, but then you have the same situation we are in now.