Looks like there was at least 2 serious bidders for this Chopmarked Trade $. Moon money ???
TennesseeDave
Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
I bid on this and was the high bidder with about 2 hours left. When I checked later to see if I had won it, I almost got choked when I saw what it sold for. Apparently there was a couple serious bidders that wanted it. Makes me wish I had kept the MS-62 example I found in the wild back a few years ago. Wonder if Pcgs will ever try to create a price guide for chop marked Trade dollars? Oh, it sold for $6168.75 inc. buyers premium.
Trade $'s
1
Comments
Must be the invisible CC one.
What do these normally go for?
That looks like a nice coin given the clarity and positions of the chops.
That price is nonsensical. I'm not aware of any varieties of this date. I can only assume that the mark on her leg is special for some reason.
Edited to add: Maybe that chop mark on her leg is an assay chop. It also has some relief to it.
Nice looking Trade Dollar...ridiculous price. Long Beach lunacy?
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Holy crap that's a lot
I may have read here that chopped marked 1873 Trade dollars are very rare. Additionally, I think I read that non-chopped 1873 Trade dollars are undervalued. IMO, the technical condition of this coin based on the details remaining is closer to MS than to AU-50. There must be something not seen in the image to merit an AU-53.
@tradedollarnut
The 73p with Chops is a distant third rarest after the 75p and 78cc. That one has a wholesome look so it takes it up a notch. That said a price guide for these would be impossible as it is so dependent on look, chops, placement and over all eye appeal. I suspect this came down to a registry play and a statue of liberty bidder but I will have to ask around. It isn't worth that after those two or so buyers find one, the third buyer for that coin would be closer to 1k. Very thin market
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Went for 50% more than it sold for raw with 8 other coins. Ex Newman
https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/collection-of-nine-different-chopmarked-trade-dollars-/a/1252-4519.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
For reference, I purchased the following 73-P at Heritage, a PCGS EF-40, for $235 (with juice) just two days after this example sold. The reverse is quite nice for the grade, though it does only have a single, partial chop.
It seems to be a matter of chance that the two coins mentioned, and a third chopped 73-P (PCGS VF-35, sold for just under $200 the same day as the AU piece) were for sale simultaneously, the date tends to be more seldom seen. The value in this coin seems entirely to be in its Registry Set potential, as @Crypto said; this is the only example in AU in the PCGS pops, with a pair of MS pieces above it (one of which is in the Legend collection and will be going nowhere quickly in all likelihood). The price is indicative of a pair of power players that wanted a higher end example, as opposed to the coin's replacement value. If one of those collectors purchased the remaining MS example, they would have a hell of a time trying to recoup even half of what they paid.
Lot of money for a mutilated coin.
Same could be said of a foreign gold coin with a Brasher countermark. All in the historical context, rarity, and the preference of the buyer. The chopped Trade Dollar date set is a lot of fun to try to put together.
Fun to assemble and learn about and try to figure out just one of the chops....but not something that should reasonably generate high values. Each piece is unique. As for Brasher and others who regulated gold, that really was not much different.
Aren't all coins just relics of history and circulation took many forms. A chop tells an interesting story and more or less proves usage.
High values are base solely on demand vs supply.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I have decided to consign my set to Legend Auctions. Many choice for the grade and a few finest knowns
Your chops?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Yes. Building a house and they're expendable
Be right back, have to take out a mortgage.
@tradedollarnut Building a house is a good cause. Will you get them reholdered with your provenance?
I understand that Legend gets great prices for Legend-style coins, but they seem like an odd choice for chopmarked Trade Dollars.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Wow, kinda cool, kinda bummed. I enjoyed watching the competition in this set.
What price did you drop out at?
Excuse me for being a novice, but I never hear anyone speak of the devices that make the chop marks. Do they exist, and does anyone collect them?
Just curious.
Later, Paul.
The tools used to strike chops (sometimes referred to as "shroffs") are not collected, primarily because next to none are known to exist today.
The well known dealer Hans Schulman acquired a pair of shroffs representing the merchant Yong Kim Hok in the mid-20th century, and subsequently applied them himself to many otherwise common world coins, making his own rarities. These are not considered genuine chopped pieces today, but are collected as a subset in their own right.
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. It's amazing what a person can learn here.
Later, Paul.
$750 was my max bid.
Are their any shroffs in museums over in China?
Sounds about right. Someone really wanted that coin!
Great info. Is there a catalog of these? Did he use them on trade dollars of any country?
Anyone else here old enough to recall the early 1960's when Coin World first emerged, and these chopped dollars were advertised as nearly worthless damaged coins, and as such sold for about $18 each ?
Commems and Early Type
Not me, but it reminds me of the stories of when Lesher dollars were commonly available for $25 each. It's interesting how some things change.
To my knowledge, no. It would be unlikely in any case, as the Chinese themselves do not view chopmarks as anything other than damage, just as the US market did years ago, though it seems that chopmarked 8 Reales are beginning to become accepted to some extent. Perhaps genuine shroffs will come to light as the market opens.
Unfortunately no comprehensive reference has ever been assembled. He generally applied them to circulating domestic coinage that would have been unlikely to circulate in China; as such, I have never seen a more typical trade coin bearing the mark. It would not make sense economically for him to apply the mark to a U.S. Trade Dollar, for instance, when an unmarked example brought significantly more at the time. However, he did apply the mark to issues such as the Peace Dollar, no genuine chopped examples of which are known.
That is what I call a 'testosterone price'... I hope the winner really likes his coin, since selling it will produce sadness at such a loss. I should re-evaluate my chopped CC.... have not looked at values in a long time. Cheers, RickO
One small correction, a "Shroff" was actually the name of a person - a money-changer (like a banker) at the ports in Canton during the period these coins were chopped. It was the shroffs responsibility to determine the alloy content of silver that foreigners brought into Canton. You'll also see the process referred to as "shroffing".
To my knowledge, the chop tools weren't referred to as schroffs, rather the shroffs used the punch tools that created these chop marks on the coins, but I could be wrong.
If anyone wants to learn more about the whole Canton system of trade, there's a great book that covers all of the different roles. It was a quite a system that lasted over a century and this book covers it better than anywhere I've seen. The book is "The Canton Trade - Life and Enterprise on the China Coast, 1700-1845". by Paul A. Van Dyke. Although the period covered precedes the U.S. Trade dollars discussed in this thread, the roles and practices were still mostly in place leading up to the turn of the century. A few things changed as the Opium Wars ceded some of the power and control the Chinese had over their own ports, as well as the "mental state" of the chinese who got hooked on the opium.
"One small correction, a "Shroff" was actually the name of a person - a money-changer (like a banker) at the ports in Canton during the period these coins were chopped. It was the shroffs responsibility to determine the alloy content of silver that foreigners brought into Canton. You'll also see the process referred to as "shroffing".
To my knowledge, the chop tools weren't referred to as schroffs, rather the shroffs used the punch tools that created these chop marks on the coins, but I could be wrong."
You are correct. I went looking on the Internet for "Shroff's" yesterday. No photos of the punches.
Prediction #1: These things are going to be common as dirt within a year. Some crooked "entrepreneur" in China is going to make fake chop punches. They will be altered to appear very old. Any machine shop can probably do it these days. Take a coin with genuine chops and make copies.
Prediction #2: IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE! I've been studying chops using a stereo microscope for several years. There are some things that don't compute in the recesses of the chops. That is all I'll say for now so take #2 and forget about it - until I can prove it...
I have same coin no chop markers. same service same grade. Second place bidder feel free to contact me, lol.