ARTIFICIAL OR NATURAL TONING PATTERNS & METHODS
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have only been a member for a year and this subject has possibly been beat to death. Perhaps, I'm suggesting a different type of discussion on this thread.
First some disclaimers:
This is not posted as a "How to tone coins thread" or "Coin Doctoring 101." However, this is EXACTLY what I wish to discuss. In order to detect artificial toning (AT), you need to know how it is done and what it looks like. The ANA Library offers an excellent video along the lines of this thread by former ANA President Robert Campbell.
I don't care if the color on a coin came from twenty years in a bank vault or ten minutes in a hotel bathroom. If it looks natural, is market acceptable to the TPGS and 95% of collectors, I'm OK with it!"
It's my belief that anyone, including the expert coin doctors, who claims they can tell natural toning from artificial 100% of the time is only correct in their own mind. There are thousands of AT coins judged market acceptable and just as many NT coins judged to be "doctored." The faster we each learn the USUAL patterns of each the better our assessment will be and we'll STILL BE WRONG some of the time.
If you have stories, images (you should see what a Taco Bell napkin did on another thread), and methods involving motor oil, heat, potatoes, urine, whatever...I want to read them here.
So, I'll start. I knew a dealer who's office had a gas furnace. He would leave a BU coin out of the safe at night on a velvet jeweler's pad.
Over time the coin would tone iridescent blue. To me this is natural toning and if I remember, the color was even across the entire coin. There was none of the "Draft Effect" next to the relief. I'll have more to add if this thread gets lots of action. 
Who's next?
Comments
I disagree entirely with the premise that you need to know how AT is done in order to recognize it. You simply need to know what it looks like. After all, does one need to know how pharmaceuticals work in order for them to cure disease? Does one need to know how to build a computer in order to use one? Does one need to know how to perform surgery in order to receive it? No.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Of course it's natural for the circumstances, but then again the circumstances were contrived with some sort of intent in mind.
From what I recall from comments by HRH, the number of nice toners in mint sealed bags of Morgans was pretty small < 10 IIRC.
Were did that natural progression chart of Sunnywood's go?
Learned a lot from that.
Some are doers and some are followers. Some wish to be informed and some do not. Some are curious and some are not.
Nevertheless, I'll try to explain the difference as I'll guarantee I have a different reason for my post and request than you'll ever figure out.
Some believe everything they are told some do not. You and I are 100% different. Your post is sufficient to identify which category you fall into.
You disagree entirely with the premise that you need to know how AT is done in order to recognize it. Unfortunately, who is going to determine what is AT and what is not when the professionals at a TPGS cannot? Are you? Being instructed and then seeing the alterations and possible outcomes (patterns/colors) - then reproducing the results works for me.
I do agree with you on this: "You simply need to know what it looks like." That is one request in my post. I wish to see what some here consider AT especially.
This is where we part ways again: "After all, does one need to know how pharmaceuticals work in order for them to cure disease? Does one need to know how to build a computer in order to use one? Does one need to know how to perform surgery in order to receive it? No."
While these statements of yours are certainly true and can probably be applied to you and 99% of the human population. I'm not in your group! I'm not sorry about that either. I want to know everything!
I want to know how a pill works. I want to know about our bodies. I want to know about chemical reactions. I want to know how computers work and how to program one. I want to know about medicine, atoms, and elements. I want to know about philosophy, etc. Call me a nerd. As a teen I read two different sets of encyclopedias A-Z.
Bringing this back to the point. I want to know the experiences of members dealing with both NT and AT. However, It looks like this is going to be another DEAD END thread.
@BAJJERFAN Who is HRH? That may be true for the bags but many dollars toned once they were put into paper rolls. So that # increased. Now you can add all the market acceptable AT coins that have appeared when toning became popular again.
It doesn't have to be a DEAD END. It's an interesting topic. I would very much like to hear what some of the more knowledgeable members here have to say. Let's just be nice to one another and see where this goes. Like the man said before he fell into the swimming pool, "Can't we all just get along?"
That is an awfully broad stroke to brush with for one phrase of mine, especially given the fact that I am a PhD scientist with my PhD in molecular biology and biochemistry, which hardly qualifies me to be dropped into the group of not caring how things work. You reveal much more about yourself than anyone else with responses such as that one. Too bad...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Sometimes "Tough Love" is needed first.
@TomB writes: "That is an awfully broad stroke to brush with for one phrase of mine, especially given the fact that I am a PhD scientist with my PhD in molecular biology and biochemistry, which hardly qualifies me to be dropped into the group of not caring how things work. You reveal much more about yourself than anyone else with responses such as that one. Too bad..."
Then Please let's see what a scientist of your caliber can add to my question. What do you wish to share about AT and NT besides the fact that you need to know what each looks like to identify it? That's obvious!
If you cannot add anything, hang around here with me and let's hope some folks with a little knowledge can teach us both something we didn't already know.
I don't want to teach anyone about making AT.
However, I suggest if folks want to learn about it then they should do what ricko has suggested for many, many years and that is to do it themselves. In that way they don't have to rely on you to tell them what is AT, they don't have to rely on me to tell them what is AT and they don't have to rely on any of the other anonymous posters with various and unknown levels of knowledge and/or motivation. They will also learn to spot coins that have similar characteristics, though this isn't a definitive test of surfaces.
I've been around this field long enough, and I suspect that you have, too, to realize that for every person who legitimately "just wants to know" that there must be many times that who "just want to know" so that they might get their own piece of the pie. Whether that means they want to cover a spot on a cheek of a Morgan dollar where corrosion was removed, hide the hairlines on an AU Seated Liberty half dollar to recoup their investment, add some pop to a mildly toned coin or crank out added color on coins already certified; I realize that the quest for dollars often exceeds the quest for knowledge. Therefore, if folks want to know they can find out, but I am not going to tell them recipes or set them on the path to results.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
As a professional scientist also, it's easy to see that we could explain these concepts all day to you, insider, but could never understand them for you. You'd have to be willing to meet us halfway, with an open mind.
Phenomena, and opinions, occur along spectra; rarely are lines such as NT/AT appropriate.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@TomB said: "I don't want to teach anyone about making AT.
However, I suggest if folks want to learn about it then they should do what ricko has suggested for many, many years and that is to do it themselves. In that way they don't have to rely on you to tell them what is AT, they don't have to rely on me to tell them what is AT and they don't have to rely on any of the other anonymous posters with various and unknown levels of knowledge and/or motivation. They will also learn to spot coins that have similar characteristics, though this isn't a definitive test of surfaces."
Wow, I guess you understood my OP. So how does one go about doing experiments for themselves without help from someone who has already done some? I though much of this stuff is common knowledge. I've heard of baking a coin in a potato. Anyone have an image? Do sweet potatoes work better than white ones? LOL
Dr. White has published information/methods in a book that was published a while back. Looks like I'll get no information here.
I've read many, many explanations about the chemistry, layers, colors, etc of the toning process. It is all over the internet. I want to hear from people that cook coins with old motor oil. I wish to see their results. Heck, if a coin that was put on a Taco Bell napkin (per the poster) gets slabbed by a major TPGS, I'm fine with it. The coin looks naturally toned.
I know members here are much smarter than me. Let's cut the I know but can't say holier than thou posts and learn a few things. Words are cheap!
Ok Ill bite.,
learned this about 40 years ago from a dealer who passed the info to me when i was just a 10 year old kid.
House hold bleach will tone a silver coin grey, to blueish black tones. it leaves a noticeable iridescence which is how you can often tell if its been used. Results are generally not attractive and if its gets over toned, i find usually it is pretty much irreversible. Even after a bath in Silver dip it will remain dull grey.
That being said i have however used it successfully to "dull down" a few silver type coins that were too bright from being cleaned by someone else in the past. . I do not think this of this as blasphemous coin doctoring, rather a subtle improvement enhancement technique usually on a coin that someone else has ALREADY manipulated.
How many of you on here have also fooled with this chemistry?
If you never have, consider doing it so you can recognize its use and or usefulness.
simple lab study. In well ventilated area,
get 3 small dixey cups put 1/4 inch of bleach in bottom of each . left one alone, diluted other 2 with tap water to 1/2 concentration and 1/4 concentration.
get 6 test coins: 3 inexpensive common date bright uncirculated common date Roosevelt dimes, and 3 brightly cleaned worn standing quarters in g-vg condition.
give one of each set of coins coin a bath in each solution for various times and monitor the results . Also, be aware the coin will continue to get darker even after being rinsed and dried. If you want to go all out expand your test coins to include proof silver Roosies as well!
Once you see the various results of the reactions you may be tempted to venture to experiment with other more "expensive" coins, like unnatural looking cleaned circulated bust half dollars....
It can be done, but be forewarned you can also easily end up with results that make you wish you never messed with it.
Disclaimer: I am not endorsing the use of this practice as a means of AT to deceive anyone , rather for personal educational purposes , as was done for me 40 years ago, by a reputable DEALER - who is still in business today.
Thanks! I have noticed that lots of folks look at a dull gray Seated dollar or half and say the coin was bleached. I've never heard of bleach making anything iridescent. Perhaps some contamination? I'll try your experiment.
@david3142
I see you disagree with my OP. What exactly don't you agree with. You know, one whiny little misinformed girl here
) without leaving a comment. At first I thought she was at it again. I sincerely hope you are not like that so I'll be waiting for a reply to my question. What do you disagree with in the OP.
has been looking for any posts I have made in the past and disagreeing with them (400+ so far and I'm trying for the CU record -
It's on @poorguy's Monster Rainbow Toned Morgan Dollars page here:
Given that the PNG, ANA and others don't really do anything to stop AT, what's wrong with teaching how to make it? The ANA has doctors teach their seminars, so why not teach their doctoring expertise?
It might be better to not teach it, but if it is going to be condoned by leading numismatic organizations, why not go all the way? Alternately, what can be done to get the PNG, ANA and others to take more action against doctoring?
The subject has been beaten to death and if you dont know the difference between AT and "original toning" than move on and learn on your own by gaining experience and looking at 1000's of coins and doing your own detective work. Yes your "dealer friend" accelerated an original toning process. So technically in yours and many peoples opinion it is NT. However, there's a difference between original natural, accelerated natural and AT. When you look at 1000's of coins and understand the process. Then and only then will you learn the thickness, the progression, the layering and the chromatics of different metals, dates and storage characteristics. Hold thousands of coins in your hands, research the history, learn what the past and present docs work looks like. Enjoy the jouney grasshopper, your answer is not on a message board.
I disagree with your claim that you have to know how to AT coins to distinguish AT from NT. I agree with TomB.
I have been collecting toned coins for 15 years and I have developed a pretty good eye. I have never tried to tone a coin manually although I am familiar with methods that I have heard others discuss over the years. It's certainly possible that if I DID know how to AT coins I could tell even better, given that there are probably some signs of each method that a practitioner would more easily recognize. I agree that no one can tell 100%. I don't always agree with the TPGs either.
Some nice examples of NT follow ...
Mint Set toning.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
There are many (I'm one of them) that do not agree with teaching toning methods. That's one reason you don't see much of it on coin forums. There is no need to give people ideas.
Album toning ...
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Album toning ...
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Elevation chromatics a pretty good tell for NT
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Very close to 100% certain this is NT. 1961 is a very common year for monster toning on proof Lincolns. Actually 1961 thru 1964 shows a spike in BN PR pops.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
100% confident this is NT.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Pretty sure this is NT. Secondary toning. This would be a hellish endeavor to cook to look like this. Toning occurred in recesses. High spots did not tone as oils from hands and fingers protected the surface. Bought this raw on ebay for $18. PCGS graded it problem-free first time thru ... About Good (AG3).
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
WingedLiberty1957, those 34 and 40s cents are amazing. You note that the 40s is album toned. Surely the 34 was in the same album, yes?
Whit
Correct! Same album. Both were raw on ebay for $65 and $48 respectively. I have a bunch of others from that same album, but those 2 were the most eye appealing. It came from a very old Lincoln collector that had the album for decades.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Toning can also sometimes be very subtle but still really beautiful. This SLQ has an almost mother of pearl look.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Another somewhat subtlely toned coin. The color variation helps to bring out the design.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Simple for me, if it looks strange, I do not buy it.
But there are always surprises. I remember the first time I saw several stoopid color silver eagles in PCI holders marked 100% white...they forced me to reconsider what I thought I knew.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Elevation Chromatics on this AU58 Indian, makes it a likely NT candidate IMHO.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I agree with just about everyone in this thread. Points for rational thinking and not using scare tactics to make your point.
To add to TomB's thoughts on the matter, it is much more important to recognize what natural toning looks like for the series you are working in. Understand that, and you can more easily identify the AT'd stuff. Keep in mind that natural toning has many looks depending on the series you are working in. Natural proof toning has a different look than business strike toning. It's a learning process like grading.
The question has always been, where does calling something AT start?
There is truth to a knowing how toning is recreated to know what is AT or not. The coin docs do very much know in a nanno second.
BTW, it is not just coin dealers playing coin docs. I know for a fact the grading services are watching a few collectors these days. That is very sad.
I will be watching this thread with interest. I spent just over two years doing various experiments that would induce tarnish....mostly on silver - though I did some copper and nickel. I have never revealed my methods here, though there have been some individuals that left nasty commentary because I would not. I will not discuss those methods now. I understand what @Insider2 is trying to accomplish. Just let me say this... there are methods that are so good, no one - no matter how many years they have been looking at tarnish - can detect as AT. The proof of that is obvious when you look at some of the coins in slabs. I have always encouraged others to do their own experimentation...for knowledge, not profit. What can be learned is the ability to judge poor attempts at induced tarnish, and also, that a job well done, cannot be detected. Cheers, RickO
@Zoins said: "Given that the PNG, ANA and others don't really do anything to stop AT, what's wrong with teaching how to make it? The ANA has doctors teach their seminars, so why not teach their doctoring expertise?
It might be better to not teach it, but if it is going to be condoned by leading numismatic organizations, why not go all the way? Alternately, what can be done to get the PNG, ANA and others to take more action against doctoring?
What would you suggest the ANA or PNG do to stop coin doctors? The only weapon they have is expulsion and they better be careful of a legal action.
@Ezmoney said: "The subject has been beaten to death and if you dont know the difference between AT and "original toning" than move on and learn on your own by gaining experience and looking at 1000's of coins and doing your own detective work. Yes your "dealer friend" accelerated an original toning process. So technically in yours and many peoples opinion it is NT. However, there's a difference between original natural, accelerated natural and AT. When you look at 1000's of coins and understand the process. Then and only then will you learn the thickness, the progression, the layering and the chromatics of different metals, dates and storage characteristics. Hold thousands of coins in your hands, research the history, learn what the past and present docs work looks like. Enjoy the jouney grasshopper, your answer is not on a message board."
The natural progression of toning happens all by itself. It can be and is being accelerated by folks all over the country. Anyone who claims differently is blowing smoke. NT and EXPERTLY altered (enough to pass you toning experts and TPGS) coins look the same because the color has progressed as it should.
THANKS! That's what I wish you would have posted in the first place. I apologize for thinking you were like the mentally challenged member who needs to get a life.
As to your opinion: I agree that the best way to detect AT is to know what NT looks like. I have heard about many methods to tone coins and I have tried some of them. There are teachers who teach but have no actual experience and there are teachers who have complete experienced of their subject. The latter are the best teachers. I for one don't believe half of the "experts" that say "I've never done it, but I know..."
YOU are not one of them as your statement shows: "It's certainly possible that if I DID know how to AT coins I could tell even better, given that there are probably some signs of each method that a practitioner would more easily recognize." I agree 100%. This is EXACTLY the reason I started this thread! Now, if any other members WITH ACTUAL EXPERIENCE wish to reveal some of their experiments I should be grateful.
PS IMO, it is never a good idea to post the length of time you have been collecting. I would never say that I have been collecting for only two years. That's because in the big picture, the majority of collectors and dealers with twenty years of experience are still considered "rookies" by some "know-it-alls."
I've discussed this directly with a Ph.D physical chemist I know, and John Albanese has spoken to an even more professionally qualified person. (Note: JA had me as technical advisor on the PNG Coin Doctoring Definition committee long before this).
Definitive conclusion: On silver, some processes and their results do not simply mimic but fully duplicate naturally occurring toning patterns.
Signed: Partially-blind former world-class grader with friends in low places.
Note: About six years ago I did a primitive demonstration for my Grading 101 class at Summer Seminar. Three lightly wiped Morgans in AU55 with various levels of hairlines. All have decent lustre
1) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats. Take it out and watch it get progressively more richly purple while in-hand. Could go on for another 30 seconds.
2) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats, Take it out and immerse it immediately in Jewel-Luster for a full minute.
Result: light battle-ship gray with some superficial suggestion of bright metal surfaces and virtually no apparent hairlines.
Intention: show students how easy it is to change a coin's look, and this being dangerous to buyers who don't know what might fool them.
Political result: from (never mind whom, let's just say they're YUGE) - Fire him, he's teaching something unethical.
Didn't happen. Now, it's OK to have an informed consumer. Hence Bob Campbell's current examples and presentations
Incidentally, over the past 10 years I've bought at least 7 1889-CC $1's in AU details/cleaned holders at under XF money and gotten them into 53-55 holders.
I've surely spent double my profits on these in buying donations out of Summer Seminar YN auctions, but, being morally ambiguous about so many other things, I cannot honestly aver this to be more than coincidental.
PCGS has recently unmasked a scientifically technically talented yet numismatically ignorant (on very dissimilar surface textures) and foolishly greedy submitter from the Midwest. Target toning that may look good on a Seated 25c simply doesn't occur on a 1917P T1 25c. The colors that showed up had patterns too concentric and colors too intense for not only that date but for virtually any STQ.
See "bolivarshagnasty"'s reminder above about knowing your series
And, of course, I get fooled too.
"Definitive conclusion: On silver, some processes and their results do not simply mimic but fully duplicate naturally occurring toning patterns.
Signed: Partially-blind former world-class grader with friends in low places.
"
Some people claim that anything can be duplicated. Duplicate this......
THANK YOU. This is exactly the type of information that I wanted to read. Two posters have said bleach turns silver blue. I'll need to see it for myself. #2 is the color I always thought bleach changed a silver coin - gray.
When NGC was in NJ they had a nationally known chemist as an adviser working on their holders and toning. I'll bet it was the same chemist JA used. I got him talking about all the "chemically altered" coins he had "made." Thankfully the guy would not shut up and I was all ears. That's why I say if it looks natural it is good enough for me.
@ColonelJessup
THANKS! This is exactly the type of information I hoped to read. I've always thought bleach made silver gray. I'll give #1 a try to see for myself.
When NGC was in NJ they had a nationally known chemist doing work on their slab and toning. I got him talking once and thankfully he would not shut up. He bragged about all the certified coins he "made." I'll bet he was the same chemist JA used.
BTW, you said you are a former grader and Summer Seminar instructor so I became curious to discover who you are. You made it very easy...LOL.
PS We all get fooled. That's why I say if it looks natural its OK.
Inside2 - if you want to learn more about grading and telling the difference between NT & AT, then attend the ANA Summer seminars - the grading seminars. Go attend grading 1, 2 & 3 and you will learn how to grade, how to identify doctored coins or AT and how to identify a perfectly NT coin. From what I remembered, they had an evening course demonstrating how to tone a coin. The cost of attending the seminars is inexpensive compared to the education that you will learn. Besides learning, you will have fun. What's better than having fun while learning. With this experience and education, you will make yourself more knowledgeable so you will feel more comfortable purchasing coins.
Thanks! That's great advice for any collector serious about numismatics. I've been to all of them and then some.
@Ezmoney said: Some people claim that anything can be duplicated. Duplicate this......
On quite a few occasions, I've seen lot's of things done to coins (I was in the room but not allowed to watch) but I cannot duplicate them.
BTW, I found out who the "Colonel" is. A wise collector will take what he says as gospel.
The "duplicate this" dollar looks AT to me.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said: The "duplicate this" dollar looks AT to me.
That was my first impression also but I talked myself into "market acceptable."
Possible sign of at; mismatch of obverse and reverse toning, a dealer I have known for years offered me a 1928 dollar and I asked if I could walk it over to a knowledgeable dealer, who said it did not pass the usual criteria for nt though it did have pastel like toning, not overt or bold coloration as many at coins have. Where the toning is, edge toward center or vice a versa, the nature of the colors which would have taken on a different hue if the process had been for years. I wonder what percentage of coin "rainbows" are not nt and what your chances would be to get your $ back, how long that would take if you paid a king's ransom for the coin?
the quest for dollars often exceeds the quest for knowledge. Therefore, if folks want to know they can find out, but I am not going to tell them recipes or set them on the path to results.
nicely said.
One man's natural is another man's artificial.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know everything too but I'm not going to tell....LOL! NUTS! Please, no more of these posts.
I respect the fact that members may know how to tone coins and don't wish to share but PPPPPPlease keep it to yourself as I'm getting really tired of "notifications" that contribute nothing.
Anyone put a coin in a potato? Any images? Anyone cook a coin with old motor oil? Any images?
Anyone know how this was done?
@CharlotteDude, @CoinsAndMoreCoins
Hey, do you two numismatic genius's have any comments on the above image?
I am currently baking some junk silver eagles in glass and tin jars. And my newest experiment is to dip a junk silver eagle in Listerin whitening then stuffed it in the roll of toilet paper cardboard. lol