Telephone call to the Secret Service just now was sure uplifting....
AUandAG
Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just called and talked to agent Chris about the fake CC dollar I recently got off eBay...see previous thread. He indicated that he'll make a couple of calls and will probably just have the seller's local field rep make a house call. Said he'd get back to me if he needs the coin or anything else....
Sure did feel good.
bob:) 
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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Comments
Bogus and seedy coins aside, good luck with your ventures and your quest for right vs the disadvantagous wrong doings of nerdowells who would see this coin market crumble and wash away in petty profits and exposure to evil.
See if you can get a medallion!
Glad you took my route, counterfeit currency is a big "no. no" within Secret service. And those field agents would love to jump on it and take the credit .
Here are some infor off wiki: (read the first mission)
The United States Secret Service (USSS) is a federal law enforcement agency under the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.[2] Until 2003, the Service was part of the U.S. Department of the Treasury because the organization's first mission was to fight counterfeiting of U.S. currency.[3]
The U.S. Secret Service has two distinct areas of responsibility:
Financial Crimes, covering missions such as prevention and investigation of counterfeit U.S. currency, U.S. treasury securities, and investigation of major fraud.[4]
Protection, which entails ensuring the safety of current and former national leaders and their families, such as the President, past Presidents, Vice Presidents, presidential candidates, visiting heads of state, and foreign embassies.
You know....If I were a young go-getter Secret Service agent, I might just take up residency here on these, (and other), numismatic message boards. You could get enough tips to get that next promotions in half the time!
Seriously....they should be making themselves more available, given the rash of numismatic forgeries out there! Hot-line number, email tips, anything!
There are some difficulties. Most of buyers/ collectors consider this transaction as fraud and do not understand that Secret service would get involved even though they should be consider as our( numismatists) best friend and protection. And the case would be a lot more difficult and costly if the currency were made or sent outside of U.S.
Or a cap. A Secret Service cap would be cool.
Lance.
all around collector of many fine things
I don't call them. They call me.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Yeah the cap would be pretty cool
Nice that the young agent was courteous to you, but you typically won't see the Federales kick in unless the crime exceeds $25,000 (often much much higher). For a case less than that, you have to hand them every single detail, including names and addresses, all facts fully documented and provable, and even then they might not devote any effort.
He did mention that coins are not a priority, but paper currency is. I reminded him that US currency includes coins and he did agree. I also reminded him, gently, that he works for us and we are being cheated by thieves. He agreed to that as well.
Don't mess with an old fart.
Probably costs the Secret Service $300,000 a year to keep an agent in the field, and about 2/3rds that to maintain an administrative assistant/ file clerk. The Secret Service is doing a good job when they prioritize the usage of their finite resources to the real financial crimes.
Old coins is the antiques business, not finance. In antiques, chicanery is dang near ubiquitous.
Enough of you are not taking these potential threats seriously. Don't fool around with other peoples counterfeits and/or imposter coins.
awesome! keep us updated as they come!
This. Counterfeit $100s a much larger threat than forgeries circulating in the numismatic market, esp. when companies like our hosts are available to guarantee authenticity should the market want that service (and clearly it does).
I have been waiting to get a CC Morgan in change, but has not happened yet - my luck it would be counterfeit.
I wouldn't get my hopes up.
While I agree that it is unlikely that anything will transpire from this report (although possible), it is the very attitude that 'nothing will be done' that prevents a lot of reporting. The more reports that are received, the more likely that an issue will be addressed. Yes, small change (not a pun) compared to $100 bills, but a clear crime nonetheless. Cheers, RickO
+1. Good to report the counterfeit, so it can be entered into the databases. However, if it cannot be tied to a larger CE, there are much more important threats to focus on.
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I got ahold of one a month or so ago. it was the 79-CC. glade some took the time to report it, i try find info how, but could not find it, so guess i took the easey way out lol, i sent it to the ANA to was in there training school. i got money back from paypal, but lost on grading cost, lol
Loe-steelielee-bought 690. sale
nate-grandrapidian-bought 70. sale
Paul-commoncents-3500+ sales
Ken-jfoot-sold-125.00 sale
Mike-mozeppa-bought 1080. sale
Dave-Badger-sale 560.00
Lochness-sale 1,000. 00
Glad you took the step
You're wrong. There is ample case law where people have been convicted for selling and/or making fake collectible coins (not of current circulating design) and without any intent to actually pass the coins into circulation. In all of the prosecutions, I am aware of, people sold the coins to collectors/investors. The counterfeiting of U.S. coins is still a crime, albeit one that is rarely enforced because the resources required to prosecute them is high for such a small fish. The biggest influx of counterfeits comes from outside this country. Also, the HPA itself includes counterfeits, so the concepts are not mutually exclusive. In other words, both criminal and the civil HPA statutes come into play. The Secret Service does not enforce the HPA though, you are correct on that point.
Edited to add: Because I doubt you'll believe me, here are a few examples:
U.S. v. Goodman, 457 F.2d 68 (9th cir. 1972) (upholding conviction for selling counterfeit 1942/1 Mercury Dimes, 1969 DDO cents, and possessing dies to strike 1942/9 Mercury Dimes)
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9279957577541090792&q=mercury+dime&hl=en&as_sdt=3,47
U.S. v. Yeatts, 639 F.2d 1186 (5th cir. 1981) (upholding conviction for attempting to sell counterfeit pre-1933 U.S. gold to dealers).
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6757043839039839802&q=Yeatts+counterfeit&hl=en&as_sdt=6,47
U.S. v. Hatcher, 423 F.2d 1086 (5th cir. 1970) (upholding conviction for pawning counterfeit 1916-D dimes and 1931-S cents) - Unlike the other cases, which rely on different counterfeiting statutes (there are multiple), the pawning of a 1916-D dime was characterized as passing or uttering. If you read the entire opinion, it is clear the defendant "pawned a 1916-D ten cent coin" and did not try to pass it into circulation at face value. See p. 1088. Either way, it refutes your statement that coins are only legally counterfeit if made to pass as currency at face value.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10629284789696279934&q=counterfeit+1916+hatcher&hl=en&as_sdt=6,43
Additionally, there was a recent case where someone was prosecuted for selling counterfeit Morgan Dollars from Alibaba but in HUGE amounts:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-me/pr/waterville-man-pleads-guilty-selling-counterfeit-coins
https://www.justice.gov/usao-me/pr/waterville-man-sentenced-10-months-selling-counterfeit-coins
(Link to DOJ press release)
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duplicate
What if it's fake?
This is confusing, from the above website (https://ag.ny.gov):
What's the difference between $20 gold pieces and Double Eagles?
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Hopefully you will have put a dent in the counterfeit market.
I applaud you Bob!
Ha ha.!.!
good luck
BHNC #203
@ProfHaroldHill - links added to my original post. The cases often raise multiple issues on appeal, including arcane legal procedure. Have fun!
Sithole was charged under 18 U.S.C. 485 and pleaded guilty. You can pull up the documents in PACER - there are no open source versions. PACER charges per page but will waive the fee if your account balance is <$15 per quarter. Anyone can create a PACER account.
I always thought local police is where to start. Not saying there is no case here but it has to be built. It seems to me that the SS would take more notice if ebay went to them with complaints than any single person who has been burned with a fake off eBay's venue.
Is the seller's identity known to us? If I were buying from ebay sellers (I don't,there is too much criminal activity on ebay for me so I said so long to ebay awhile back) I would make the strongest statement possible for me to make and not buy from a crooked seller. There's power in numbers.Whatever happened to the power of feedback numbers?
Albert Einstein himself stated "I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist ... I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings".
It is automatic. You don't need to do anything. They will not send you an invoice/hit your credit card and will forgive it at the end of every quarter. If you go over, they will automatically hit your credit card at the end of the quarter even if you go over by a tiny amount. It is sad that you are charged for anything. So much for public records/public access and transparency in the judiciary.
Fair enough. I uploaded a couple of files for you. These documents give you the 2-3 minute synopsis.
Prosecution Statement of Facts
https://www.docdroid.net/ujTD529/sithole-prosecution-statement-of-facts.pdf.html
Judgment Order - Standard form order convicting/sentencing him...Nothing special.
https://www.docdroid.net/wuNxqZL/sithole-judgment-order.pdf.html
@CoinsAndMoreCoins
Sithole is an unusual name, and was very, very easy to find. It didn't cost much at all. Knowing the exact district made it easy to cut out superfluous searches. I do not know anything about the man other that the press releases and the prosecution's statement of facts. There may be other things buried in PACER.
i would venture that most knowledgeable numismatists know more about what makes for a fake coin than your typical SS agent.
If one could get the real scoop on the SS culture it wouldn't be surprising to me to find that the glory there for the agent is in working currency cases not coins.
Albert Einstein himself stated "I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist ... I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings".
I got a contact from a usps inspector many months after the items in the parcel were apparently taken. A more expeditious way to handle this would have been to have an inspector contact the customer soon after it goes missing with periodic follow-ups. I don't buy excuses I have heard from federal workers that they are too busy with large cases to bother with the small ones. They have plenty of resources to do their jobs.
I agree with this thinking....hard to shove a medium box down your pants to hide the theft.
bob:)
I don't want this thread to begin to read like a dry legal textbook so I will keep my comments short.
The possession of counterfeit coins is lawful unless there is an intent to defraud. There are collectors that seek out and collect counterfeit coins, and this is perfectly legitimate and legal. For instance, the NORFED coins were adjudicated to be counterfeits in violation of the criminal statutes, yet you can freely own these as long as you do not do so with the intent to defraud. I believe the government actually returned some of the NORFED coins that were confiscated. The intent to defraud element is omitted in the statutory language for producing counterfeit coins.
The legal standard of whether a coin is a counterfeit is whether the piece is made in the resemblance or similitude of an official coin or currency so as to confuse an ordinary person with no special knowledge of coin design/production. A marked piece that complies with the HPA does not meet this standard since it is clearly marked as "COPY." I admit that depending on the methods used to produce the coins before the word "COPY" is etched in may raise interesting legal questions under the companion statutes for paraphernalia and dies, etc., but this has no effect on the coin counterfeiting statute itself.
The HPA covers replicas, other imitation numismatic items, and counterfeits. It is meant to provide civil enforcement mechanisms for instances when criminal prosecution is unavailable (e.g. does not have the requisite resemblance, etc.) but may still confuse. It also provides civil remedies, to include private enforcement mechanisms, for actual counterfeit coins that do fall within the scope of the criminal statute as well.
I am using the definition and standards that federal courts have uniformly applied when adjudicating counterfeiting cases. In my book, that is the only definition that really matters. As for the 1804 dollars, the originals are technically legal tender under the coinage act of 1965 and the exact copies are legally counterfeit if the pieces meet the standards discussed above. (Without being marked COPY the pieces almost certainly would if it strongly looked like the original). If you make counterfeit 1804 dollars or 2017 cents, you have legally violated the law regardless of whether law enforcement pursues you. Intent is irrelevant. If you possess the counterfeit coins as described, you are in violation of the law only if you possessed the items with the intent to defraud. If you start a personal collection of counterfeits for your own study, you are not violating the law unless you are making them, passing them, or otherwise have fraudulent intent.