CAC guys/gals
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Does CAC **gold **sticker a proof coin that is PCGS graded PR65, solid for the 65 grade but clearly deserves a Cameo designation?
Thanks
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Good question! How about a photo?
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
No photos yet, just looking at some old PCGS rattlers with proof coins that look really frosty on both sides..
Does not answer your question but I just got back a OGH PF65CAM with a gold sticker. Dont know if they thought it was a 66 or a DCAM.
From my understanding, it is the same as DMPL/PL coins, where they are only looking at the numeric grade, and not the designations.
From my CAC submissions I have never seen a sticker bump for coins that deserve a designation of PL, DMPL or cameo.
My understanding is that the CAC gold sticker is only applicable to the grade and not the designation (although a coin that did not warrant the designation awarded by the TPG would fail to sticker even if the coin was all there grade wise).
My understanding is that they look only at the grade, so for example a Morgan that is slabbed MS63PL could potentially sticker even though it isn't PL.
I'd love to see a pic of that slab because OGH didn't designate cam
The PCGS OGH did designate DCAM and I know because I have one. Therefore, I also supect they designated CAM as well.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Tom and Trade, I think you are both right. Rick Tomaska can weigh in here but I recall he did come in after PCGS started grading and consulted with PCGS on these designations. So it is possible that coins were graded without Cam etc... And then later added within the "rattler" time frame..
I see a market opportunity for CAC for these type of coins!! On no, another sticker!! UGGGGG!
I go by TPG grade on holder - stickers Mean nothing to me - my opinion does.
If u think a coin in a holder deserves a higher grade - send it in.
Ten years into CAC, three seasoned members begin their posts with "my understanding" meaning they are not sure. I am not sure either about how the man behind the curtain interprets these magic little stickers. Maybe Willy Wonka can help.
I would suggest that such questions could be quickly answered by a telephone call to CAC customer service. Cheers, RickO
Simplistic and simple answer.
CAC doesn't gold for a "under-designation", won't sticker any "over-designation even if it agrees with numeric grade.
Or if CAC would post the information on their website as FAQs or policy.
Thanks everyone!!
By popular demand (or at least a request or two @tradedollarnut, @TomB ) here is a picture of the unicorn, an OGH PF65CAM Gold CAC.
Looks darn nice!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Didn't the OGH end around 1998? I believe cameo designations came along around 1995-1996. Hopefully someone can chime in with more information and verify my recollection.
I would send this in under the reconsideration tier. I probably would leave it so it would only be reholdered if the designation (as opposed to grade alone or everything) upgraded.
I've learned to never speak in terms of absolutes in this hobby. CAC's interpretation of its statements and policies sometimes differs from my own. I wish they would update their website. There are several questions that should be addressed like the OP's question, which grades are treated as the same (e.g. AU 50 and AU53 are treated the same by CAC, as I understand it), and which scratched coins with prominent distractions even after being toned over are considered bean worthy.
I think one thing that is helping the PF65CAM Frankie is that its the best picture of a proof I have taken, thanks to Mark Goodman and Numismatic Photography Book which I perused right before taking the pic. Below is the rev, which didnt turn out quite as nice, the white balance is slightly off, coin is white in reality. I think i was fooling with the room light. As shown in the pic there is a slight frost fade at the lower right of the bell. Its less noticeable in hand.I may take the advice for a reconsideration, even with the gold I think I am just back to the purchase price for this 10yrs ago, as I think gradeflation has hit this date.
Keep it in the OGH! I'm generally a fan of doing things with coins as non-invasively as possible and preserving the OGH allows you to market the coin aggressively to those who would prefer the older holder. Otherwise, it is simply another coin maxed out in a new holder.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I would leave it in the holder. Coins in new holders turn me off these days. Unless I can see it in hand or very good pictures are posted, I just assume it is overgraded.
For down the road leaving meat on the bone is a good way to have a coin get bid up at auction. Maxed out coins is not where the action is at. Coins need to all there and then some in today's market.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I couldn't agree more. I'm a fan of older holders. A coin in a new holder is a turnoff for me. I do look at all coins and go from there. I have found in my opinion that coins in current holders tend to be maxed out. There are of course exceptions. This is why I grade the coin and compare my opinion with the holder. I love coins that are undergraded by today's standards and in old holders. I also don't care if they are in PCGS, NGC or ANACS. I also will not crack them out. I like the sticker whether green or gold and let the coin make its own statement.
CAC is just another way of someone generating revenue. If the PCGS grade is not good enough why is CAC an entity that has the final say? I don't bother with CAC and only have stickers if they are already on a coin slab I purchase. Frankly I have seen some real dogs in holders with CAC stickers. Just adds more confusion and cost to collections.
There are differing levels of quality within a grade, and from a marketing/seller's perspective, the sticker makes sense to alert bidders in online auctions, etc., that a coin is all there. CAC is also a great learning tool, and I have always appreciated John's willingness to discuss coins with me especially for the paltry submission fee. On a final note, no one is perfect and reasonable minds are free to disagree. I too have seen CAC coins that I don't like, but that doesn't undermine the value of its service.
P.S. I also have always respected that John puts his money where his mouth is and will buy a CAC stickered coin for any reason. For many coins, more common coins especially, CAC bids will net you more in many instances than selling on eBay or selling them at auction.
Actually it adds value to collections. You may have seen a few dogs with stickers but I have seen hundreds of boxes of slabbed coins without stickers that barked and tried to bite me. To each is own
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
We need a "WOW" button.!.! Lol
Here is one being advertised as holdered before designations. I am sure the seller thinks this but I wonder?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1891-1c-PCGS-PR64RD-Indian-Cent-Why-pay-extra-for-CAMEO-designation-on-holder-/142398705808?hash=item21279fd090:g:GagAAOSwrhBZBKy5
I think the ebay coin cited by bigeng is past the era of no designation. We have show that designations startred sometime in the OGH era, and I beleive the ebay peice has a PCGS holder after that generation.
To reply to earlier comments about whether the 65CAM OGH should be sent in for PCGS reconsideration:
I am a fan of older holders, and have never caused a coin to lose its older holder. I dont have any intention of selling this coin in the short term, so very likely wont do anything.
However, I think this is one of the few cases where I would think of doing such a thing, as @cameonut2011 suggests. The reason: For the Franklin proofs, especially the early years, the Designation ( CAM, DCAM) is critical. I have not recently researched the price guides, but I think of a gain in the designations as equal or exceding a grade bump in this series. I also have not sat down and critically looked at the coin to see what i think a reasonable result of a recon would be.
So if the PF65CAM went to 66 DCAM it would be in rarefied territory and effectivly getting a two grade bump or more. A long winded way of saying that the potential monitary gain on a reconsideration of this particular coin is (potentially) high.
Wow now that is a good looking franklin!