Rush order nets several MS68 Morgan Dollars - Lots of New Cert Numbers

oih82w8 · May 20, 2017 9:47AM

I was just looking at what other members have submitted and I spotted a couple of orders that were received on 5/15/2017 and shipped 5/17/2017. So that peaked my curiosity and BAM! 15 of 20 coins (1878, 79, 80, 81 and 82-S) in this order were graded MS68...the other 5 were MS67+. A few DNC's. The highest Peace Dollar I saw was MS66+. No TrueViews

https://www.pcgs.com/Membership/sharedorder.aspx?OrderNo=21234542&Year=2017&Month=5

There appear to be 11 (eleven) orders that share this turnaround time frame and mostly Morgan and Peace Dollars. There are a few CC's thrown into the mix (1881,1882,1883 and 1885-CC MS67).

Talk about "high cotton"!

Zoins · May 20, 2017 9:50AM

Wow, lots of MS68 and MS67+. Would have been nice to get a MS69 or two.

grip · May 20, 2017 10:18AM

And a few 70's would have been?

djm · May 20, 2017 10:31AM

I saw those yesterday when they posted.

TomB · May 20, 2017 10:32AM

I imagine these were all regrades sent in under the Walkthrough tier.

hickoryridge · May 20, 2017 10:40AM

@TomB said:
I imagine these were all regrades sent in under the Walkthrough tier.

+1
looks like a 34-s peace dollar went from 64+ to 65
not too hard to figure what inventory they belong to

Peace_dollar88 · May 20, 2017 10:47AM

Wow, those are pretty impressive submissions.

Wabbit2313 · May 20, 2017 11:22AM

Holy cow. Some do have trueviews. Nice batch of coins spread through the 9 orders.

cameonut2011 · May 20, 2017 11:29AM

@TomB said:
I imagine these were all regrades sent in under the Walkthrough tier.

For purposes of holding market value, I hope so.

jtlee321 · May 20, 2017 11:30AM

I bet they go to New Jersey next.

Zoins · May 20, 2017 11:32AM

@Wabbit2313 said:
Holy cow. Some do have trueviews. Nice batch of coins spread through the 9 orders.

I found 2: 1881-S and 1882-S.

Wabbit2313 · May 20, 2017 11:35AM

On the other orders, especially the Peace dollars, there are many more trueviews.

RogerB · May 20, 2017 12:07PM

Reminds me of "picks" from original bags of the early 1960s. There were 75 to 100 like this in most bags - sometimes many more. My local bank got one such bag in about 1961 and I got to look through it. Only two different die pairs, and the coins were nearly all like the one pictured above. I bought all my measly lawn mowing money would permit, but then cashed in some a couple of years later to help pay for a 35mm SLR.

Coin Finder · May 20, 2017 12:21PM

Does that mean when these hit the market the Price for 68's of this date will go down along with 67's and 67+ coins?

oih82w8 · May 20, 2017 12:29PM

I obviously did not go through all 200+ coins looking for TrueViews, I was looking at SecurePlus holder. Nice to see some though.

I would think that the prices may come down a notch, but not too fast.

BryceM · May 20, 2017 1:08PM

Wasn't that the time frame of the New Orleans members-only show? I believe dealers can submit their coins directly to PCGS a day or two prior to the show. The coins are then taken to the show where they are graded on-site with "show" pricing.

It's likely that many of these were re-grade or cross-over attempts. At that level it doesn't take many "hits" to cover a ton of grading fees.

Wabbit2313 · May 20, 2017 1:19PM

@RogerB said:
Reminds me of "picks" from original bags of the early 1960s. There were 75 to 100 like this in most bags - sometimes many more. My local bank got one such bag in about 1961 and I got to look through it. Only two different die pairs, and the coins were nearly all like the one pictured above. I bought all my measly lawn mowing money would permit, but then cashed in some a couple of years later to help pay for a 35mm SLR.

Sorry Roger, no way there were 75-100 MS-68 Morgan's per bag! If you take population report, which counts some coins twice or more since there were crackouts, there is less than 1 MS-68 dollar per 1100 bags of Morgans. I am shocked the price is not higher than it is on these.

keets · May 20, 2017 1:24PM

Breath deep the gathering gloom
Watch lights fade from every room.
Bed sitter people look back and lament
Another day's useless energy spent.
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one,
Lonely man cries for love and has none.
New mother picks up and suckles her son,
Senior citizens wish they were young.

Cold hearted orb that rules the night,
Removes the colors from our sight.
Red is grey and yellow white,
But we decide which is right.
And which is an illusion?

Bankerbob56 · May 20, 2017 1:48PM

Great song keets!

logger7 · May 20, 2017 2:14PM

I'd like to be a fly on the wall as the grading service standards have evolved over the last 25 years or so as management sees a benefit to loosening up standards on some coins. It would be interesting to know if CAC agrees with the upgrades if and when they get sent in.

Wabbit2313 · May 20, 2017 3:13PM

@logger7 said:
I'd like to be a fly on the wall as the grading service standards have evolved over the last 25 years or so as management sees a benefit to loosening up standards on some coins. It would be interesting to know if CAC agrees with the upgrades if and when they get sent in.

No one except the owner knows if and how many went up. The 1881-S above was a 68 before and there is a picture in coinfacts to prove it. I would love to know how many went up though.

Coin Finder · May 20, 2017 4:03PM

I see a lot of ms67+ on ebay now.....perhaps a coincidence...

roadrunner · May 20, 2017 8:26PM

The 1881-s with the hits above the eagle's head just doesn't float my MS67+ or MS68 boat. And the 1882-s is a bit ticky imo to be an all there 68. These aren't MS68's of 10-20 years ago which really had to be about flawless to the unaided eye. The price of generic 67+ and 68 coins will fall. While stickered specimens will probably hold their own or at least not fall near as much.

Wabbit2313 · May 20, 2017 8:42PM

@thebigeng said:
I see a lot of ms67+ on ebay now.....perhaps a coincidence...

They would not be back and listed already and no way the owner of all those coins is grading these to sell on eBay.

keets · May 21, 2017 5:43AM

which really had to be about flawless to the unaided eye

that's an "armchair quarterback" comment if I ever heard one. some members just love to sit here and criticize a coin picture and posit a superior point of view based on a 20 year memory. go hold the coin in your sweaty hand, try to remember what those flawless 20 years ago coins looked like and please give us a report.

the catty, back biting criticisms around here are really getting old. I don't doubt members are experienced and have spent time in the trenches over the years, but some of us need to back off some with the self-righteous posture that we know more about grading, more about a series, more about, well, you get the picture.....................

ricko · May 21, 2017 7:14AM

Breathe deep the gathering gloom.....@keets.....Apropos..Cheers, RickO

roadrunner · May 21, 2017 9:37AM

@keets said:
which really had to be about flawless to the unaided eye

that's an "armchair quarterback" comment if I ever heard one. some members just love to sit here and criticize a coin picture and posit a superior point of view based on a 20 year memory. go hold the coin in your sweaty hand, try to remember what those flawless 20 years ago coins looked like and please give us a report.

Having TPG submitted/graded $1.5 MILL in raw coins back then my memory is still pretty darn good. And if it should be not as good as I remember it, the seated/bust/barber and misc type coins I had graded back then that are now in higher holders are a good reminder. Those coins are still out there....and always will be....and they haven't changed.....other than their holders/grades. An MS66 seated/barber/bust type coin was about as good as you got back then. Those were essentially "flawless" to the unaided eye. I never had a single gem type coin grade out higher than MS67 in the pre-1995 era, no matter how flawless. I remember in 1988 handling the most amazing 1943 Walker without a single mark, tic or graze to be seen on the coin and wonderful original bluish toning. I had split with a dealer friend of mine because we both saw it at the same time....and thought the same thing....an MS67. Nope....went MS66. You tend to remember "flawless" coins. Back in 1988 you hunted for a rogue hairline on every potential gem MS/PF coin because a single wayward facial or focal hairline, and the coin was net graded to MS64...no matter how perfect otherwise.

For the coin in question above. My memory needs to only go back to 2006-2011 when I looked many MS67 and MS68 Morgan silver dollars. I don't recall any MS68's having a severe mark like the 1881-s above. How about a "report" on the Vermeulle 1893-s MS67 Morgan dollar when I looked at it for the first time 15 years ago? It was flawless to the unaided eye back then. In fact, after 10 min of looking at it under 5X and 10X mag I still couldn't find a single graze or contact mark. Though years later Colonel Jessup told me I may have missed a hairline on the coin. So shoot me....lol. The coin is still flawless to the unaided eye today...and still graded MS67. There's no reason to have to recollect what these "flawless" coins looked like back then....as they are all still around today to judge for yourself what they looked like 20 yrs ago.....or 50 years ago. Grading standards loosen over time even if the coins don't change. End of report.

RogerB · May 21, 2017 10:15AM

@Wabbit2313 said:

@RogerB said:
Reminds me of "picks" from original bags of the early 1960s. There were 75 to 100 like this in most bags - sometimes many more. My local bank got one such bag in about 1961 and I got to look through it. Only two different die pairs, and the coins were nearly all like the one pictured above. I bought all my measly lawn mowing money would permit, but then cashed in some a couple of years later to help pay for a 35mm SLR.

Sorry Roger, no way there were 75-100 MS-68 Morgan's per bag! If you take population report, which counts some coins twice or more since there were crackouts, there is less than 1 MS-68 dollar per 1100 bags of Morgans. I am shocked the price is not higher than it is on these.

You're right -- there might have been more on average. I was just a teen, but also very detail oriented and I wanted as close to flawless as possible. At the time silver dollars were unwanted by the banks - too much handling - and i had to promise not to return any of the dollars I bought direct from the bank's bags to that same bank. (It was a small local one.)

Also, you are confusing "population reports" of now with reality of 50+ years ago. You cannot conflate pop reports into the contents of original Mint bags. Frankly, that is just another of the misconceptions today's collectors seem to have invented. US Mint coins through about 1934, as originally packaged or issued, were of far higher average quality than what we see today. (If you research back into the old issues of Coin World, Numismatic Scrapbook, etc. you will see hints of how high was the quality of newly available silver dollars.

Wabbit2313 · May 21, 2017 10:28AM

On the 1893-S MS-67 Morgan, I think the grade is generous by today's standards. There are plenty of whacks hiding under that toning.

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Wabbit2313 · May 21, 2017 10:36AM

@RogerB said:

Also, you are confusing "population reports" of now with reality of 50+ years ago. You cannot conflate pop reports into the contents of original Mint bags. Frankly, that is just another of the misconceptions today's collectors seem to have invented. US Mint coins through about 1934, as originally packaged or issued, were of far higher average quality than what we see today. (If you research back into the old issues of Coin World, Numismatic Scrapbook, etc. you will see hints of how high was the quality of newly available silver dollars.

Roger, out of the entire GSA hoard, Bags and Bag, Millions of coins, there is only one certified MS-68. You can go back until the beginning of time, MS-68 coins are hens teeth.

RogerB · May 21, 2017 11:08AM

GSA dollars had been trucked around the country multiple times. A large proportion of the dollars released in the early 60s came from vaults after only one or two moves. If you were present and had seen the coins, you would understand my comments. Others who opened bags back then can confirm or refute my recollections.

[For about 2 years, I was permitted to look through all silver dollars in the bank once a month by the local bank president. At the greatest, this was 1,500 to 2,000 coins from newly delivered bags, but sometimes was only a few hundred circulated pieces. I was allowed to buy all of the coin I wanted, but i had to search and count them while seated int he Board of Director's meeting room, then give the Head Teller a complete count and reconciliation before the rejects could be put back in their bags. Only after the unwanted coins were returned to the bank vault, was I able to bring in clear 2x2 for the coins I purchased. That is, I entered the room with only a pencil, pad of paper and my currency - no coins.

In exchange, I helped the bank assemble a couple of coinage displays - this was back when Christmas Clubs were popular and banks sold proof sets at cost. I also helped out when the bank got the occasional loan request with "rare coins" as collateral....something the bank did not especially want to accept - real estate good; gold bad.]

keets · May 21, 2017 11:15AM

rawteam1 · May 21, 2017 11:33AM

Is keets in high school?... or junior high?...

Wabbit2313 · May 21, 2017 11:34AM

Roger, cool story. What happened to them?

roadrunner · May 21, 2017 7:58PM

@Wabbit2313 said:
On the 1893-S MS-67 Morgan, I think the grade is generous by today's standards. There are plenty of whacks hiding under that toning.

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True enough that there are some micro marks/ticks/grazes on the 93-s. Then again, nothing that should preclude a 68 grade....if the luster were a bit more booming and a better strike over the ear. In any case, take those MS68 photos in the OP's post and blow up the true views to similar size to the 1893-s. You will find a dozen marks or more on both of them, especially on the reverse. I count about 2 dozen on the reverse of the 82-s. The worst marks on those 68's are much more severe than anything you high-lighted on the 93-s. If the marks on that 93-s are generous for a 67 grade, then what does that say about the 81-s and 82-s?

And to be exacting, note that you blew up that 93-s photo to about 45X....or about 2X the size of those MS68 trueviews. I was only using 5X and 10X mags when looking at the 93-s originally. Then you blew it up to about 100X to show the micro-marks more clearly. To be fair, check out those MS68 trueviews under 100X too by using the maximum enlargement. Let's leave this toned 1893-s alone....rather than suffer the fate of the former Norweb MS67 that was poorly dipped out seeking an MS68.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1880-s-1-ms69-prooflike-pcgs/a/1251-5744.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

As long as we're being fussy. The above link is a PCGS MS69 1880-s Morgan with about the same marks, in the same location as you identified on the 1893-s (nose, cheek, jaw, eye, and lower neck).

Iwog · May 21, 2017 11:02PM

@Wabbit2313 said:
On the 1893-S MS-67 Morgan, I think the grade is generous by today's standards. There are plenty of whacks hiding under that toning.

You're right. This is an MS65 by PCGS's own standards. Even substituting eye appeal (ugg) for the luster damage, this still would only reach MS65 if 99.9% of y'all submitted it. The luster on the cheek, most of the hair and left field is gone completely. What luster remains is heavily toned, which explains why the dark toning is only in the recessed crevices and NEVER on the hair, the cheek, or the lettering or the rim. In fact as we all know, coins are generally held finger and thumb which explains why the color of the rim and the color of the cheek are identical . I've seen this pattern a thousand times and it generally means the toning (and luster) were rubbed off by an old time collector's thumb.

unclebob · May 22, 2017 5:01AM

Ah... makes me hopeful for the one sitting at PCGS today, and few I plan to send later.

I think mine are solid MS65 with a couple pushing MS66 and a couple PL

oih82w8 · May 22, 2017 5:12AM

@Iwog said:

@Wabbit2313 said:
On the 1893-S MS-67 Morgan, I think the grade is generous by today's standards. There are plenty of whacks hiding under that toning.

You're right. This is an MS65 by PCGS's own standards. Even substituting eye appeal (ugg) for the luster damage, this still would only reach MS65 if 99.9% of y'all submitted it...

So...are you guys saying that our host is biased towards some submitters in giving gracious grades?

keets · May 22, 2017 5:25AM

So...are you guys saying that our host is biased towards some submitters in giving gracious grades?

no, what they are saying is that they are more accurate at grading a 30X picture than the PCGS graders are with the actual coin in hand. to be sure, I understand where these members are coming from, but if I graded the same way and purchased accordingly I wouldn't be buying very many coins. another thing, the remarks about "hiding under the tone" isn't a new phenomenon. it's sort of like vinyl siding on a 200 year old home: it can hide a multitude of sins.

Wabbit2313 · May 22, 2017 6:19AM

@keets said:

no, what they are saying is that they are more accurate at grading a 30X picture than the PCGS graders are with the actual coin in hand.

This is not at all what I am saying. Those who keep harping that grading standards are more relaxed today than at ANY time in the past are wrong. Today's standards are tougher than they were at CERTAIN times in the past. Also, there are coins in holders that are not graded correctly.

Finally, if you can't see those 93-S gashes under the ear with any loop or even the naked eye, time for an eye test. They are not little dings.

keets · May 22, 2017 7:41AM

Wabbit, that's micro grading and you know it is. the grade is a composite of lots of variables, but you know that, too. it is apples and oranges trying to compare a picture that is multiples of times larger than the coin to the actual coin under good lighting, but you also know that. I don't know why everyone keeps harping about stuff when they really KNOW all the nuances in play. it's one of those "angels on the head of a pin" discussions.

here's what I think --- as a larger group of coins are seen by any individual, group of individuals or entity the rationale for a specific grade might change even though the specific criteria stays the same. if you graded 100 coins they would fall within certain grades. now if you graded 1,000 coins, which included the original 100, things would be different since you'd have a different objective understanding of grades. imagine grading 500k of those coins over a long period of time. it is only normal and expected that your grade assessment of what an MS66 should look like would change.

we would then call that grade-flation.

Iwog · May 22, 2017 10:55AM

@keets said:

no, what they are saying is that they are more accurate at grading a 30X picture than the PCGS graders are with the actual coin in hand. to be sure, I understand where these members are coming from, but if I graded the same way and purchased accordingly I wouldn't be buying very many coins. another thing, the remarks about "hiding under the tone" isn't a new phenomenon. it's sort of like vinyl siding on a 200 year old home: it can hide a multitude of sins.

I am going to make two solid assertions and in these assertions there really is no room for disagreement. I can prove it. Anyone can prove it. Claiming otherwise makes no sense whatsoever.

The luster on the cheek, most of the hair, and the left field is gone. It's TOTALLY gone. There is no cartwheel effect and there are no parallel lines under magnification. The texture and color of these regions is identical to the outer rim.

I will also point out that PCGS says a coin with impaired luster cannot grade over MS64.

Now I'm sure some will dispute the first assertion. I'm used to it and that's fine. (however I would defy them to either show a cartwheel effect or parallel flow lines under magnification) My second assertion is simply a fact anyone can look up.

Iwog · May 22, 2017 11:00AM

@keets said:
So...are you guys saying that our host is biased towards some submitters in giving gracious grades?

I would like to know if it's your assertion that giving alternate opinions on a grade is prohibited here?

asheland · May 22, 2017 11:14AM

Those 68's and that 69 are quite something to look at!

keets · May 22, 2017 11:32AM

Iwog, keets didn't say that. it was actually a cut/paste of what oih82w8. just read what I wrote and don't put words in my mouth, it tastes funny.

Iwog · May 22, 2017 11:34AM

@keets said:
Iwog, keets didn't say that. it was actually a cut/paste of what oih82w8.

Sorry, my mistake but now you get demerits for referring to yourself in the 3rd person.

oih82w8 · May 22, 2017 12:32PM

Where I posed my question is in reference to how "I" read the following portion of a message;

@Iwog said:

» This is an MS65 by PCGS's own standards. Even substituting eye appeal (ugg) for the luster damage, this still would only reach MS65 if 99.9% of y'all submitted it...

If 99.9% of submitters sent in this coin it would have came back as a MS65 instead of MS68. That seems like to me that any Joe or Jane sends in a coin like this it would warrant a MS65...BUT...if someone of prominence sends it in, it is looked at upon with rose colored glasses and garners a MS68. Sounds pretty shady to me.

EXOJUNKIE · May 22, 2017 12:50PM

Just popped into the thread....

ColonelJessup · May 22, 2017 12:52PM

Wabbit, Wabbit, Wabbit.....
I was around when Eddie Milas, the guy who subsequently, in 1985 financed my consortium's purchase of the Garrett 1804 $1, bought the Continental Bank Hoard; I handled three bags from George Weingart out of the 200+ discreetly distributed. Pretty sure I could make a phone call and have a quick synopsis of where half of them went from RARCOA veterans. I would guess that Jeff did the cherry-picking. Lots of us around at the time saw the crème de la crème de la creme At the time, the only guy who could consistently grade the 67+/68 line was Jimmy Halperin. 200,000 coins? Eye appeal is all you scan when your cost is under $5 per coin and monster upside is $100.
Wabbit, Wabbit, Wabbit.....
I know some of the few surviving guys who sorted out Redfield too. One's on the ANA Board.
RogerB made his numismatic bones long before you sold your Mickey Mantle rookie card too cheaply.
Roadrunner was picking off NE dealers on type coins before you discovered Coinstar.

An few observations based on anecdotal evidence:
A tendency to think that attitude lends moral suasion through bullying. Its efficacy erodes rapidly when you're not walkin', just talkin'.
An inability to extrapolate in a focused and disciplined manner from a knowledge base that suggests you to be overly reliant on urban legends and the regularity of your bowels, thus undermining my credulity
Another: Don't come to a gun fight armed with a peashooter. Consider, instead, that there's a Forumite with an excellent seppuku kit.

Please, Google schadenfreude From here it looks like it's trailing behind you like a half a roll of toilet paper stuck to your shoe.

We who have previously served as institutional memory now quiver in anticipation as we await your insights.

Instruct us.

Iwog · May 22, 2017 12:57PM

@oih82w8 said:
Where I posed my question is in reference to how "I" read the following portion of a message;

If 99.9% of submitters sent in this coin it would have came back as a MS65 instead of MS68. That seems like to me that any Joe or Jane sends in a coin like this it would warrant a MS65...BUT...if someone of prominence sends it in, it is looked at upon with rose colored glasses and garners a MS68. Sounds pretty shady to me.

I'm going to refrain from drawing any conclusions about PCGS or any other coin grading company. It's not warranted.

What I will do is detail my experiences at dog shows which is well established in the pedigree dog industry. A freshman dog will never win. There are no circumstances, regardless of how perfect a dog has been bred, regardless of how perfect the coat and the teeth and the feet and the gait, that a freshman dog owner will make best of breed or best of show assuming there are competitors who have been there longer. The odd thing is that when it comes to pedigree dog breeding, everyone knows this and talks about it openly.

I don't think for one moment that the judges are willfully deciding "Hey, this is a new owner I've never seen before, lets screw him over!" What I think happens is simple human nature. That guy has been breeding dogs for 30 years so he must REALLY know his dogs so he'll always get the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway I've got a lot to say on this topic but I'm going to save most of it for later.

EXOJUNKIE · May 22, 2017 1:06PM

@ColonelJessup said:
Wabbit, Wabbit, Wabbit.....
I was around when Eddie Milas, the guy who financed my consortium's purchase of the Garrett 1804 $1, bought the Continental Bank Hoard; handled three bags from George Weingart out of the 200+ discreetly distributed. Pretty sure I could make a phone call and have a quick synopsis of where half of them went from RARCOA veterans. I would guess that Jeff did the cherry-picking. Lots of us around at the time saw the crème de la crème de la creme At the time, the only guy who could consistently grade the 67+/68 line was Jimmy Halperin. 200,000 coins? Eye appeal is all you scan when your cost is under $5 per coin and monster upside is $100.
Wabbit, Wabbit, Wabbit.....
I know some of the few surviving guys who sorted out Redfield too. One's on the ANA Board.
RogerB made his numismatic bones long before you sold your Mickey Mantle rookie card too cheaply.
Roadrunner was picking off NE dealers on type coins before you discovered Coinstar.

An few observations based on anecdotal evidence:
A tendency to think that attitude lends moral suasion through bullying. Its efficacy erodes rapidly when you're not walkin', just talkin'.
An inability to extrapolate in a focused and disciplined manner from a knowledge base that suggests you to be overly reliant on urban legends and the regularity of your bowels, thus undermining my credulity
Another: Don't come to a gun fight armed with a peashooter. Consider, instead, that there's a Forumite with an excellent seppuku kit.

Please, Google schadenfreude From here it looks like it's trailing behind you like a half a roll of toilet paper stuck to your shoe.

We who have previously served as institutional memory now quiver in anticipation as we await your insights.

Instruct us.

Dang! All I got is emojis....

Rush order nets several MS68 Morgan Dollars - Lots of New Cert Numbers

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